Creation, wanting answers from Catholics and NonCatholics

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Faith1960 said:
Do physicists say this?
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It’s outside the Realm of physics.

It is cosmology which would say…“We don’t know”

They have theories of multi verses and other such things. These are very hypothetical theories.

None of them answer what was the first cause of all things that requires no cause in itself.
 
Jon
I would love to see evidence for young earth. Maybe dinosaur bones in the same rock layer as a horse or human.
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We need only take the first sentence in the Bible as an absolute truth on this

'In the beginning, God created the heaven and the Earth.
If it happened it would change science. But it hasn’t, we’ve pulled millions of fossils from the earth and not once have we found such evidence.
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It seems that’s millions of reasons to believe science is at least on the right track
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Us Catholics have to accept many things in conflict with science, virgin birth, bread and wine, that is really the body and blood of our Lord, Christ rising from the dead and eternal life, to name a few.
 
Faith1960 said:
Do physicists say this?
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Logic does.

You said there was a hot point in the beginning.
Its existence would signal the beginning of time.
There would be no time before that.
There would be nothing before the beginning.

If you find there was something before that, maybe that was the beginning.
 
Jon_S said:
They could say that but it makes no logical sense. I actually don’t think they say that.

They are still looking for causes before that.
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Do you mean they’re still looking for what’s before this hot point? If so, can you pleas link me to something current tha says this?
 
Jon_S said:
They could say that but it makes no logical sense. I actually don’t think they say that.

They are still looking for causes before that.

One can easily say…where did the hot point come from? What is it suspended in? What is the universe expanding into? Etc…

In order to disprove God, they would have to find someone or something that is not caused by something. That exists fully of is own with no cause.

They haven’t done so. And frankly they can’t. Even if they proved our universe was birthed from another, one asks. Why? Where did that universe come from and so on.
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Aloysium said:
Logic does.

You said there was a hot point in the beginning.
Its existence would signal the beginning of time.
There would be no time before that.
There would be nothing before the beginning.

If you find there was something before that, maybe that was the beginning.
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But do physicists say that oat one point there was nothing or that there has always been something?
 
Faith1960 said:
But do physicists say that oat one point there was nothing or that there has always been something?
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They don’t work by revelation, but rather by what can be measured.

They cannot say what is beyond the universe.
From all the measurements, although there is not universal agreement as to the numbers, this universe appears to have had a beginning.
God did not first create a clock and then the universe; time and space define the physical universe.
 
Eric_Hyom said:
We need only take the first sentence in the Bible as an absolute truth on this

'In the beginning, God created the heaven and the Earth.

Us Catholics have to accept many things in conflict with science, virgin birth, bread and wine, that is really the body and blood of our Lord, Christ rising from the dead and eternal life, to name a few.
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Well if the Catholic Faith said all Bread was Christ body and all births virgin I would reject that.

I am not denying miracles.

In fact I am advocating a great miracle. The miracle of our existence! I too affirm that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. He spoke it into being.

It doesn’t give details…science which God also have us helps with that.
 
Faith1960 said:
But do physicists say that oat one point there was nothing or that there has always been something?
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Depends on who you talk to.

But it seems science is universal on saying the universe began at some point. Thus anything with a beginning did not exist prior to that point.
 
Jon_S said:
Depends on who you talk to.

But it seems science is universal on saying the universe began at some point. Thus anything with a beginning did not exist prior to that point.
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I think what happens in discussions like this is people
confuse God with His created universe.
It is God Himself that has no beginning and no end
not His Universe without regard to whether He formed
it from an electron or not.
 
marywarfield said:
I think what happens in discussions like this is people
confuse God with His created universe.
It is God Himself that has no beginning and no end
not His Universe without regard to whether He formed
it from an electron or not.
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Good point!
 
Jon_S said:
Yes…I believe that. do you?
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I did. Now that I read some physicists think the universe began as a tiny hot point, or a vaccum so I’m not so sure. I don’t know that most of them believe the universe came from what we consider to be nothing.
 
Faith1960 said:
I did. Now that I read some physicists think the universe began as a tiny hot point, or a vaccum so I’m not so sure. I don’t know that most of them believe the universe came from what we consider to be nothing.
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Where did the tiny hot point vacuum come from?

If it came from nothing than the universe came from nothing.

Your logic is like saying:

My dinner came from my oven and so it was created from something in my oven.

No your dinner was somewhere else before the oven. Ultimately that somewhere else has to originate in God.

Watch this video…it’s 7 mins long and will really help you with this concept.

Fr Barron- What Christians mean by God: m.youtube.com/watch?v=W_Yjue8MXAI
 
Jon_S said:
Where did the tiny hot point vacuum come from?

If it came from nothing than the universe came from nothing.

Your logic is like saying:

My dinner came from my oven and so it was created from something in my oven.

No your dinner was somewhere else before the oven. Ultimately that somewhere else has to originate in God.

Watch this video…it’s 7 mins long and will really help you with this concept.

Fr Barron- What Christians mean by God: m.youtube.com/watch?v=W_Yjue8MXAI
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Aren’t the scientists saying that the vacuum or hot point may have been there infinitely?
 
Faith1960 said:
Aren’t the scientists saying that the vacuum or hot point may have been there infinitely?
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They can say that, but they cannot know that…you must remember within that space is compressed all the matter that is in the whole universe.

Matter cannot be created or destroyed in physics. It just changes form.

So where did all that matter compressed into the space of an electron come from? It could not have created itself.

Watch the video.

Plus if you can really believe that all matter of our huge universe can fit in the space of a single electron without God directing it so…well then I’d say you really do believe in miracles.
 
Jon_S said:
They can say that, but they cannot know that…you must remember within that space is compressed all the matter that is in the whole universe.

Matter cannot be created or destroyed in physics. It just changes form.

So where did all that matter compressed into the space of an electron come from? It could not have created itself.

Watch the video.

Plus if you can really believe that all matter of our huge universe can fit in the space of a single electron without God directing it so…well then I’d say you really do believe in miracles.
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I did watch it. Thanks for posting it.
 
Jon_S said:
Where did the tiny hot point vacuum come from?

Watch this video…it’s 7 mins long and will really help you with this concept.

Fr Barron- What Christians mean by God: m.youtube.com/watch?v=W_Yjue8MXAI
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Thanks, Jon. I watched it too. While the story hangs together, sort of, if you accept the assumptions, taken as a whole it is a semantic misfortune. That is to say, in order to accept it as a valid presentation, one would have to have had some unconsciously accepted inculcation that the premises were true, or not have gone through a process of assiduous examination of those premises from a greater framework that what was already believed. It’s a “no” from me.

There was one uplifting moment, though, that might have done well in a gag reel. I watched it twice to makes sure. When Fr. Barron is talking about seeing God from the backside, and the frame includes a part of one of the Sistine paintings depicting a man with his bare backside aimed at the view. That was worth the whole watch. I have never seen a Freudian slip so perfectly exemplified. Thanks! 🙂 More on that, if you wish.

Further, Aquinas argument of contingency, as he presents the “cloud analogy” is almost a door, but is wrongly premised with the word “extrinsic.” And all that follows is incorrectly attributed, even the meaning of the last line of the “argument” as spoke by the well meaning and no doubt sincere Father.
 
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