Creationism and life in general

[tonyrey]

tonyrey;7899131:

God doesn’t specialize in singling out Christians. But neither does God specialize in singling out towns that allow gay pride flags to be flown along the streets, as Pat Robertson opined a few years back.

Natural disaster have a certain randomness, but also a certain pattern. They don’t target particular houses or schools or churches, but they do occur in specific places. Earthquakes tend to happen on earthquake faults; tornadoes tend to happen in “Tornado Alley,” and hurricanes tend to happen along the Gulf Coast. Why Christians choose to live in trailers in tornado country is another matter.

StAnastasia

Why anyone chooses to live in Mexico City is an impenetrable mystery. It is a colossal disaster waiting to happen…

 

[grannymh]

Granny, that is a bogus distinction. (1) There is no such thing as “general theology,” at least not recognizable to professional theologians. (2) 'Secular theology" is a contradiction in terms. (3) Catholic theology has many aspects to it, and discusses many different questions, most of which involve the theologian in engaging in dialogue with contemporary society and its sciences.

StAnastasia

Please note. The description “Catholic” should be removed from point 3.

 

[StAnastasia]

StAnastasia;7901325:

Why anyone chooses to live in Mexico City is an impenetrable mystery. It is a colossal disaster waiting to happen…

You’re absolutely right. Those tall buildings are poised to tip over in the mud. And I’m scheduled to speak on historical theology at a conference there next October…ulp! I should check the earthquake forecast before buying my plane ticket.

 

[StAnastasia]

Please note. The description “Catholic” should be removed from point 3.

Granny, from your comment I surmise you’ve never studied theology or visited a university with a theology department. Have you never heard of biblical theology? Historical theology? Fundamental theology? Theological anthropology? Liturgical or sacramental theology?

All these fields and courses exist, I can assure you.

 

[inocente]

Of course. Were you trying to make the point that Catholics (or ID supporters) are against making stronger buildings? If so, you can put your mind at rest. We support that too.

Why would you even think that?

*If you’d like to read some religious material on the matter of why God allows suffering, you could start with “The Fulfillment of All Desire” by Ralph Martin, or this very short book:

www.vaticaninexile.com/…/Trustful_Surrender_to_Divine_Providence.pdf*

From the home page of that site:

Unfortunately the nations of the world do not recognize this and accept the heretic Joseph Ratzinger as head of the Vatican City State. - vaticaninexile.com/Home.html

So I knew I’d be in for some gross stupidities but wasn’t prepared for the shear malevolence, like this for instance (your link gives a 404 not found, the working link is here (pdf)):

Moreover, when God cooperates with the person who attacks or robs you, He doubtless intends to deprive you of health or goods because you are making a wrong use of them and they will be harmful to your soul. But He does not intend that the attacker or robber should take them from you by a sin. That is the part of human malice, not God’s design.

To paraphrase:

Moreover, when God cooperated with the Nazis to murder millions of Jews, He doubtless intended to deprive the Jews of life because they were making a wrong use of it and it was harmful to their souls. But He did not intend that the Nazis should take life by a sin. That is the part of human malice, not God’s design.

Depraved nonsense.

Some more:

*We ought to conform to God’s will in all public calamities such as war, famine and pestilence, and reverence and adore His judgments with deep humility in the firm belief that, however severe they may seem, the God of infinite goodness would not send such disasters unless some great good were to result from them.

Consider how many souls may be saved through tribulation which would otherwise be lost, how many persons through affliction are converted to God and die with sincere repentance for their sins. What may appear a scourge and punishment is often a sign of great grace and mercy.*

At that point I gave up. It’s no wonder folk such as Richard Dawkins have a downer on religion when outright wickedness is written in the name of Christ. Just goes to show that trashy theology has been around through the ages. I can only suggest for the good of your soul you read the NT instead. If you want theology, JPII and Benedict are reasonable places to start. Bro, please stick Saint-Jure where he belongs, in the garbage.

 

[grannymh]

Did God stop the Japan earthquake? Did He prevent the Holocaust?

Did the earthquake act within its nature?
Was the Holocaust possible because of freedom within the nature of man?

 

[inocente]

Did the earthquake act within its nature?
Was the Holocaust possible because of freedom within the nature of man?

Essentially yes. After the Holocaust how people can even think for one moment that God intervenes to fix auntie Alma’s bad knee when He didn’t intervene to save millions of lives is well beyond me. That’s what I meant earlier by theology being in a schizoid bubble, as if trust in Christ is no longer possible without also denying reality.

“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her. – Luke 1:38 NIV

Mary trusted and accepted, she said let it be, she didn’t philosophize and rationalize, didn’t jump through hoops trying to explain every last detail. But apparently for many simple trust is no longer sufficiently sophisticated. Well, I mean

 

[grannymh]

Granny, from your comment I surmise you’ve never studied theology or visited a university with a theology department. Have you never heard of biblical theology? Historical theology? Fundamental theology? Theological anthropology? Liturgical or sacramental theology?

All these fields and courses exist, I can assure you.

Thank you for the current course examples of general theology. From post 223. General theology includes its history and an overview of various traditional theologies from pagan to Christian

As you know, general theology can be described as 1: the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially the study of God and of God’s relation to the world. ( reference: Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition) As you know, ancient peoples had their own systems of theology. The Greek and Roman gods systems were similar systems of theology. None of these theological systems can be considered as Catholic fundamental theology regarding creation and life in general.

Secular theology often uses recent scientific discoveries as the arbitrator. This is the key difference between secular theology and Catholic theology which depends on Divine Revelation…
regarding creation and life in general.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.

 

[inocente]

Secular theology often uses recent scientific discoveries as the arbitrator. This is the key difference between secular theology and Catholic theology which depends on Divine Revelation…
regarding creation and life in general.

I’d go further. ID, for instance, only uses the language of science, only allows a designer to exist on scientific terms - it worships science, the very thing it’s trying to deny.

Intelligent designer of burning cleansing flame:
Send the fire!
Your blood-bought gift today we claim:
Send the fire today!
Look down and see this waiting host,
And send the promised Holy Ghost;
We need another Pentecost!
Send the fire today!
Send the fire today!

Doesn’t quite work does it? (apologies to William Booth)

Or, from the Sarum Primer

*Intelligent designer be in my head,
and in my understanding;

Intelligent designer be in mine eyes,
and in my looking;

Intelligent designer be in my mouth,
and in my speaking;

Intelligent designer be in my heart,
and in my thinking;

Intelligent designer be at mine end,
and at my departing.*

 

[grannymh]

Certain scientists may have a bee in their bonnet when they step out of the lab, but science itself can only be neutral – God is either everywhere or nowhere, there’s no way to sift the evidence. Many scientists find great spirituality in exploring nature, and if they don’t happen to believe in God will express it in other ways. Meanwhile organized religion does its best to turn them away, they are despised and rejected of men. It’s kind of understandable if many don’t have much time for religion.

The basic Catholic Church does not turn scientists away. For some reason, CAF has good representation of the “organized religion” fundamental groups and Catholic dissenters. Free speech is important here. This is educational; however, one often needs to explore Catholicism itself.

 

[grannymh]

I’d go further. ID, for instance, only uses the language of science, only allows a designer to exist on scientific terms - it worships science, the very thing it’s trying to deny.

Intelligent designer of burning cleansing flame:
Send the fire!
Your blood-bought gift today we claim:
Send the fire today!
Look down and see this waiting host,
And send the promised Holy Ghost;
We need another Pentecost!
Send the fire today!
Send the fire today!

Doesn’t quite work does it? (apologies to William Booth)

Or, from the Sarum Primer

Intelligent designer be in my head,
and in my understanding;

Intelligent designer be in mine eyes,
and in my looking;

Intelligent designer be in my mouth,
and in my speaking;

Intelligent designer be in my heart,
and in my thinking;

Intelligent designer be at mine end,
and at my departing.

I agree from a number of different view points.

As a Catholic charismatic – we do need another Pentecost!

 

[tonyrey]

Essentially yes. After the Holocaust how people can even think for one moment that God intervenes to fix auntie Alma’s bad knee when He didn’t intervene to save millions of lives is well beyond me. That’s what I meant earlier by theology being in a schizoid bubble, as if trust in Christ is no longer possible without also denying reality.

According to that argument neither Jesus nor any of His followers performed miracles - nor has anyone in the world, regardless of their faith ever been healed by prayer. Your concept of God is certainly not Christian…

 

[tonyrey]

I’d go further. ID, for instance, only uses the language of science, only allows a designer to exist on scientific terms - it worships science, the very thing it’s trying to deny.

Intelligent designer of burning cleansing flame:
Send the fire!
Your blood-bought gift today we claim:
Send the fire today!
Look down and see this waiting host,
And send the promised Holy Ghost;
We need another Pentecost!
Send the fire today!
Send the fire today!

Doesn’t quite work does it? (apologies to William Booth)

Or, from the Sarum Primer

*Intelligent designer be in my head,
and in my understanding;

Intelligent designer be in mine eyes,
and in my looking;

Intelligent designer be in my mouth,
and in my speaking;

Intelligent designer be in my heart,
and in my thinking;

Intelligent designer be at mine end,
and at my departing.*

Your prayer should be

“Remote Deity I know it’s a waste of time praying to You but I adore and thank You just the same for Your total indifference to our needs!” :choocho:

 

[inocente]

According to that argument neither Jesus nor any of His followers performed miracles - nor has anyone in the world, regardless of their faith ever been healed by prayer. Your concept of God is certainly not Christian…

Christ is God, not quite the same as a follower, and personally I’ve not met any Protestants who believe in faith healers’ miracles.

Outside of placebo effects of course.

Thanks for yet another label, my cup runneth over, but on this occasion I think I’ll stick with Christ telling me whether or not I’m a Christian rather than disembodied Internet pixels, if it’s all the same to you.

Your prayer should be

“Remote Deity I know it’s a waste of time praying to You but I adore and thank You just the same for Your total indifference to our needs!” :choocho:

Again, before water baptism the only Baptist question asked is “do you accept Christ as your personal Savior”, not “do you deny reality, logic and evidence, and accept all this baggage of whatever anyone on CAF says is doctrine and wants to load on your shoulders or else you’re going straight to Hell, oh yes you are, mark my words you horrid little toenail, etc. etc. etc.”.

 

[tonyrey]

According to that argument neither Jesus nor any of His followers performed miracles - nor has anyone in the world, regardless of their faith ever been healed by prayer. Your concept of God is certainly not Christian…

The issue is any type of miracle.

Your prayer should be

“Remote Deity I know it’s a waste of time praying to You but I adore and thank You just the same for Your total indifference to our needs!”

*:choocho:

Again, before water baptism the only Baptist question asked is “do you accept Christ as your personal Savior”, not “do you deny reality, logic and evidence, and accept all this baggage of whatever anyone on CAF says is doctrine and wants to load on your shoulders or else you’re going straight to Hell, oh yes you are, mark my words you horrid little toenail, etc. etc. etc.”.

You should be praying instead of wasting your time on this forum then…

 

[razredge]

H

Not sure of the rationality that millions of Jews (Holocaust) and 18,000+ Japanese (recent death toll), etc. were close to God and needed to be prevented from drifting into the abyss, but then there’s never been any good arguments for why God allows such suffering other than a strict policy in Heaven of not interfering - the rain falls on the just and unjust alike, and so do disasters. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

You can be sure that the same people trivialising such horrors will be distraught and furious with God if anything of the sort happens to them or their loved ones.

They won’t be standing beside hospital beds or graves saying ‘oh well, its all part of God’s plan’

 

[inocente]

The issue is any type of miracle.

Did you ever watch Leap of Faith (Steve Martin), a comedy about a fake miracle healer (tag line – real miracles, sensibly priced ) who finally finds God?

Personally I’m skeptical about claims of miracles but wouldn’t say they are the issue - if something highly improbable happens it’s called a miracle. The issues for me are:

(a) The morality of explaining away millions of deaths as having some invented divine purpose, which dishonors the victims purely to provide a rationale for belief. You may have gathered by now that whenever a doctrine places belief-in-belief before basic humanity, I feel it radically undermines the entire gospel of Christ.

(b) The Sundays-only version of Christianity, which calls for a suspension of reality to boost egos once a week. If our faith doesn’t work 24/7 in the real world, inside and outside of the lab as it were, then there’s nothing to separate it from yet another New Age feel-good belief.

Imho

You should be praying instead of wasting your time on this forum then…

Pots and kettles dude?

 

[inocente]

You can be sure that the same people trivialising such horrors will be distraught and furious with God if anything of the sort happens to them or their loved ones.

They won’t be standing beside hospital beds or graves saying ‘oh well, its all part of God’s plan’

Exactamundo.

 

[StAnastasia]

Moreover, when God cooperated with the Nazis to murder millions of Jews, He doubtless intended to deprive the Jews of life because they were making a wrong use of it and it was harmful to their souls. But He did not intend that the Nazis should take life by a sin. That is the part of human malice, not God’s design.

This Ralph Martin sounds like a really sick person. Are you sure he is not a closet Nazi sympathizer?

 

[fhansen]

(a) The morality of explaining away millions of deaths as having some invented divine purpose, which dishonors the victims purely to provide a rationale for belief. You may have gathered by now that whenever a doctrine places belief-in-belief before basic humanity, I feel it radically undermines the entire gospel of Christ.

The kingdom of God is like a seed, meant to grow gradually from a small, singular point, it’s light to be spread in individual increments as people come to take it to heart-and live it. The purpose of miracles was never about God doling out candy to His precious little believers. The purpose of miracles is to make believers-while never removing our option to turn away any time we want. In any case, it would do little good to heal someone who’s going to end up dead like the rest of us in a few short years anyway-only God would have the wisdom to know how and when to intervene in such a manner.

(b) The Sundays-only version of Christianity, which calls for a suspension of reality to boost egos once a week. If our faith doesn’t work 24/7 in the real world, inside and outside of the lab as it were, then there’s nothing to separate it from yet another New Age feel-good belief.

Imho

IMT (In Mine Too)