Creationism v. Intelligent Design v. Evolution

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You said this about the certainty of the ToE being correct:
Sure, the problem is that the merits of its rejection are zero.
You said this as an excuse when I suggested that you and others read Signature in the Cell - thinking that perhaps you would find evidence that perhaps the ToE is not the whole story:
Because he already knows what ‘evidence’ Meyer will present. And I know too, and I am not interested.
So you seem to know what’s in the book, the evidence that you have not read, and know in advance that it is not correct.

You further stated the following - again showing what appears to be a great deal of faith in the ToE, and the implication that everything will eventually be answered by the ToE:
But at this point there is no rational reason to assume that the unanswered questions will not be resolved.
and finally:
If you want to read something into my statement that I have not said, it only reflects on your own biases, not on me.
It certainly seems to me that you have your mind made up, and nothing is going to change it. That’s hardly the scientific method.

Perhaps we should start over:

Mr. Moritz, I suggest you read Signature in the Cell. It might contain some new information, or approaches, or insights that you were not aware of. I’ve been recommending the book to others, and would greatly appreciate finding out exactly where it is not “scientific” as some have claimed. Although I have a science background, it is not in biology, and your insights would be truly appreciated.

Thanks!
 
The existence of irreducibly complex systems.
That is predicted in ID, and it is fairly easy to test out.
Unfortunately for ID it is also predicted by Muller, in 1918 and 1939, though he called it “Interlocking Complexity” rather than “Irreducible Complexity”.

Lenski (2003, 2008) and Behe (2004) have both shown that IC can evolve.

You cannot use IC as a test for ID since evolutionary theory predicts the same thing…

rossum
 
Unfortunately for ID it is also predicted by Muller, in 1918 and 1939, though he called it “Interlocking Complexity” rather than “Irreducible Complexity”.

Lenski (2003, 2008) and Behe (2004) have both shown that IC can evolve.

You cannot use IC as a test for ID since evolutionary theory predicts the same thing…

rossum
I’m not familiar with “Interlocking Complexity.” But I’m curious as to why IC can’t be “a test for ID since evolutionary theory predicts the same thing.” Could you clarify? What does predicting the same thing (or not) have to do with it?
 
Unfortunately for ID it is also predicted by Muller, in 1918 and 1939, though he called it “Interlocking Complexity” rather than “Irreducible Complexity”.

Lenski (2003, 2008) and Behe (2004) have both shown that IC can evolve.

You cannot use IC as a test for ID since evolutionary theory predicts the same thing…

rossum
It can be used when the odds are measured. Again, just because something can happen does not mean it does.

The case for IC evolving is dubious. And it brings up the question - who is the specifier?
 
So you don’t know whether the chances of the human brain appearing were infinitely slender? Or less likely than a bacterium?
I do not know the odds on a human brain. The odds on a bacterium are likely to be better; one cell compared to many cells.
Then why did you distinguish between odds for different forms of life without having any numbers?
Actuarial tables are numbers. Average lifespans are numbers.
So you do accept arguments based on probability which is not mathematical.
Where such arguments are valid yes; where they are not valid no.
Neither God nor matter originated in a place whereas matter in the Buddhist scheme of things seems to be eternal - or did it create itself?
Matter is not eternal; the material universe is destroyed periodically and re-emerges after a period with no material life. During that period life is all non-material.
You have no opinion whatsoever?
I have no informed opinion: “7. Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.”
But you have accepted non-mathematical estimates of probability.
Not of absolute probabilities, but of relative probabilities.
You don’t have actuarial tables for prehistoric forms of life.
But I know that they are now dead and were once alive, therefore the probability of them going extinct is 100%. I have an estimate for the minimum length of time the species existed from the dates of fossils.
Then why did you differentiate the odds of different species?
Because different species go extinct at different rates. Shark species on average last longer than mammal species.

rossum
 
Why is it the best way? Is there intelligent design at work? That’s what e.g. Signature in the Cell is all about (as one example). You’d have to read the book I suppose.
This is what I call tit for tat posting. What I mean by that is a poster responding in a way that doesn’t answer the question, but either poses another, or claims something like the poster they are answering has to read books to understand. No, I don’t have to read the book. I shouldn’t have to read the book. That’s what is commonly called a ‘GAFFY’ response. (go away and find out yourself because I don’t actually know) You should be able to articulate at least one reason in the book you refer to why IDer’s are of the opinion their theory is the best way to explain certain features of the universe and living things.
Again, I think you would need to read the book where the arguments are presented. You are dismissing the arguments as part of your assumptions.
You asked me to look at a website, and I did. Are you saying now this website does not contain enough information and I need to read a book? What book exactly? Have you read it? If so, you should be able to give me one example from it in answer to the question I asked. I’m not going the find the answer to my own question.

I haven’t dismissed any arguments for intelligent design. What I dismissed were claims there are no religious intentions and it is unrelated to any interpretations of Genesis. As I am aware, I attempted to back this up with evidence. Therefore, it is not my own assumption. It is also the opinion of many. Of course, if you can cite something I said that I did not back up with evidence, please point it out and will be happy to provide evidence.
mm - we KNOW that intelligent designers exist. You are one. I am one. Our friend Al is one. Why would we not believe in an intelligent designer, or intelligent design in general? Design exists. It was my job for 25 years or so 🙂 (based on the products I designed however, one might not ascribe to them the title of “intelligent” design - but then, everybody has a pointy-hair boss 😉 )
The reason many don’t believe in an intelligent designer is because they see no need to. Let’s say for the sake of argument ID proves irrefutably there is an intelligent designer. What is the benefit of knowing there is an intelligent designer? The only benefit I see relates to religious belief. Which is why I say ID cannot claim there is no religious intention in their theory. If there are other benefits to knowing there is an intelligent designer, I’m willing to consider it.
Now, if you minkymurph, were to look at the universe and say - “If it was designed, then it’s obvious that the designer must be what we call God” - well, that’s your choice, but not a requirement. Some would not come to that conclusion.
So are you saying that the only requirement and only purpose of ID is to establish there is an intelligent designer? Nothing more, nothing less? If so, why do they challenge Neo-Darwinism? The site you gave me a link to states this is the purpose of ID. What wrong with an intelligent designer who lets random, unpredicted and purposeless mutations occur because he/she/it wants to?
There are many different sorts of people who support ID. Some of them are very religious. Some are not. What their intentions are is totally irrelevant. One can look at the facts presented independently of whether the author is a Catholic, agnostic, atheist, Buddhist, etc.
I would strongly disagree with you there. I would the intentions are very relevant.
Perhaps some of these people have hidden agenda. Not unlike evolution. So what?
Atheistic evolutionists don’t hide their agenda. They are openly hostile to belief in God and religion. Theist who accept evolution are quite open about their intentions of exploring the compatibility of the Genesis account and the findings with modern science. I don’t think it’s out of turn to expect IDer’s with an agenda to be honest about it, particularly if they are very religious. Dishonesty looses credibility. That’s so what.
They want to challenge it because they think a purposeless, unguided process is is insufficient to account for the life we see today. Admittedly, a FAQ doesn’t go into this in detail, which is why I keep recommending the book.
Sorry, but I have to keep recommending you should be able to articulate at least one point from the book.
Many ID people do defend Genesis. Many do not.
OK, I’ll give you that one. Perhaps it’s not that the actual theory of ID is based on literal interpretations of Genesis, but rather a large percentage of IDer’s believe Genesis should be interpreted literally.
 
Some people at that point will make the philosophical (not scientific) leap that there must be a God. Some people will not make that leap. The data is there. ID does not insist that you make the leap, although many ID folks would no doubt be overjoyed if some did.
It would make little difference if they did insist. However, to me the next logical would be who are what is this intelligent designer and I would argue that while ID doesn’t insist the leap is made, the fact that most of them would want it to demonstrates a large number of IDer’s promote ID with for religious intentions. I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. What’s wrong is claiming there is no religious intention if the next logical step after accepting ID is a step towards God.
One of the FAQs explains that ID does not challenge neo-Darwinism in its entirety. The same data can be viewed in other ways and different conclusions reached. ID in fact states that microevolution does occur, but that the complex life we see today could not be the result of a purposeless, unguided process. There are mathematical and other reasons for coming to this conclusion.
What the site does say is it challenges Neo-Darwinism on the point of random, unpredictable mutations that are purposeless. I asked if you knew why IDer’s want to challenge this particular Neo-Darwinian opinion and no I’m not going to read the book, because I feel you should know.
And what are the intentions of the evolution movement?
Answered above. Atheists want to discredit the bible, belief in God and religion in general and use evolution to do so. Theists want to address the major issue today of the compatibility of evolutionary theories with Genesis in light of developments in biblical scholarship - that’s were I stand in the grand scheme of things and I’m not afraid to say it.

And some people just like scientific inquiry.
 
Me. And that is because I do not understand what ID is. I’ve read numerous posts and still walk away, shaking my head, because I simply do not understand. I understand evolutionary theory and I understand creationism but ID is way out there in the Twilight Zone (sorry). IMHO.

If one wants to present ID to the masses, one needs to be able to present it in a form that is more easily understood. I’m a scientist and I don’t understand it! How can anyone expect those who haven’t even gone to college to understand something that is apparently as complex as ID is? (I’m not saying that those who go to college are more intelligent because I’ve known people who never graduated from high school who are a lot smarter than me, and that includes Jesus). But the terminology is difficult for the average person to understand. IMHO.

Simple statements, simple words, made clear to those with average intelligence (90 - 110 IQ or so) and comprehension skills. That would be very nice and very appreciated.
This may help. Here are some FAQs on ID. On this page itself. At the top of the page, there are additional links to FAQs on other sites.

intelligentdesign.org/faq.php
 
This is what I call tit for tat posting. What I mean by that is a poster responding in a way that doesn’t answer the question, but either poses another, or claims something like the poster they are answering has to read books to understand. No, I don’t have to read the book. I shouldn’t have to read the book. That’s what is commonly called a ‘GAFFY’ response. (go away and find out yourself because I don’t actually know) You should be able to articulate at least one reason in the book you refer to why IDer’s are of the opinion their theory is the best way to explain certain features of the universe and living things.

You asked me to look at a website, and I did. Are you saying now this website does not contain enough information and I need to read a book? What book exactly? Have you read it? If so, you should be able to give me one example from it in answer to the question I asked. I’m not going the find the answer to my own question.

I haven’t dismissed any arguments for intelligent design. What I dismissed were claims there are no religious intentions and it is unrelated to any interpretations of Genesis. As I am aware, I attempted to back this up with evidence. Therefore, it is not my own assumption. It is also the opinion of many. Of course, if you can cite something I said that I did not back up with evidence, please point it out and will be happy to provide evidence.

The reason many don’t believe in an intelligent designer is because they see no need to. Let’s say for the sake of argument ID proves irrefutably there is an intelligent designer. What is the benefit of knowing there is an intelligent designer? The only benefit I see relates to religious belief. Which is why I say ID cannot claim there is no religious intention in their theory. If there are other benefits to knowing there is an intelligent designer, I’m willing to consider it.

So are you saying that the only requirement and only purpose of ID is to establish there is an intelligent designer? Nothing more, nothing less? If so, why do they challenge Neo-Darwinism? The site you gave me a link to states this is the purpose of ID. What wrong with an intelligent designer who lets random, unpredicted and purposeless mutations occur because he/she/it wants to?

I would strongly disagree with you there. I would the intentions are very relevant.

Atheistic evolutionists don’t hide their agenda. They are openly hostile to belief in God and religion. Theist who accept evolution are quite open about their intentions of exploring the compatibility of the Genesis account and the findings with modern science. I don’t think it’s out of turn to expect IDer’s with an agenda to be honest about it, particularly if they are very religious. Dishonesty looses credibility. That’s so what.

Sorry, but I have to keep recommending you should be able to articulate at least one point from the book.

OK, I’ll give you that one. Perhaps it’s not that the actual theory of ID is based on literal interpretations of Genesis, but rather a large percentage of IDer’s believe Genesis should be interpreted literally.
Biomimicry is a growing area that is attempting to use the designs found in nature for our own purposes.

So what - the majority of citizens in the US are believers. The majority of evo biologists are agnostic or atheist. So?
 
I’m not familiar with “Interlocking Complexity.” But I’m curious as to why IC can’t be “a test for ID since evolutionary theory predicts the same thing.” Could you clarify? What does predicting the same thing (or not) have to do with it?
You say that IC is due to ID, I say that IC is due to evolution. We do an experiment and we find IC. That does not allow us to decide if ID or evolution is correct since they both correctly predicted the result of the experiment.

What we need is something where ID and evolution make different predictions. Then we can do the test and see what the result is.

If ID predicts green and evolution predicts purple, then we can do the experiment and see what colour we get. Green means ID wins, purple means evolution wins and red means both sides have some thinking to do.

That is how science works; you make predictions and you test them against experiment.

rossum
 
Unfortunately for ID it is also predicted by Muller, in 1918 and 1939, though he called it “Interlocking Complexity” rather than “Irreducible Complexity”.

Lenski (2003, 2008) and Behe (2004) have both shown that IC can evolve.

You cannot use IC as a test for ID since evolutionary theory predicts the same thing…

rossum
Actually what was shown is that it is within the realm of possibility that certain systems believed to be irreducibly complex can in fact be naturally occurring.

The probability of this natural occurance is not provided.

Now, what of the other irreducibly complex systems?
 
You should be able to articulate at least one reason in the book you refer to why IDer’s are of the opinion their theory is the best way to explain certain features of the universe and living things.
My experience with your suggested approach has always led to criticisms of my “summaries”. Of course they can be criticized, they are only a summary.

That being said, one reason is that we know that intelligent designers exist and can design really neat stuff. We have no actual proof that natural processes can create complex really neat stuff. BTW - the counter argument that usually comes up at this point is that “Here we are, so that proves that evolution did it, somehow.”
You asked me to look at a website, and I did. Are you saying now this website does not contain enough information and I need to read a book? What book exactly? Have you read it? If so, you should be able to give me one example from it in answer to the question I asked. I’m not going the find the answer to my own question.
The book is “Signature in the Cell”. Yes, I’ve read it. You can probably get a copy at your local library.

If you want to dismiss ID on the basis of my humble summaries, and no doubt incomplete understanding, then do so. But wouldn’t it be better to reject it for a good reason?
I haven’t dismissed any arguments for intelligent design. What I dismissed were claims there are no religious intentions and it is unrelated to any interpretations of Genesis. As I am aware, I attempted to back this up with evidence. Therefore, it is not my own assumption. It is also the opinion of many. Of course, if you can cite something I said that I did not back up with evidence, please point it out and will be happy to provide evidence.
There are no doubt some with sinister religious intentions (such as getting people to believe in God). But the methods of ID stand apart from the intentions of those involved, and stand or fall on their own.
The reason many don’t believe in an intelligent designer is because they see no need to. Let’s say for the sake of argument ID proves irrefutably there is an intelligent designer. What is the benefit of knowing there is an intelligent designer? The only benefit I see relates to religious belief. Which is why I say ID cannot claim there is no religious intention in their theory. If there are other benefits to knowing there is an intelligent designer, I’m willing to consider it.
From a scientific perspective, there is a tendency to say “Evolution did it, happened randomly, no purpose at all, just a big accident, end of story.” This would obviously bring science to a halt.

On the other hand, if you assume that e.g. DNA is “designed”, and has many purposes, a person with a questioning mind would try to determine in more detail how the design works, how did the design first appear, who designed it, etc. Answering these questions would obviously be of great benefit. DNA does in fact have attributes for information storage integrity (fault protection, fault correction) which are very similar to those designed by humans. And there are multiple layers of data integrity and encryption. Fascinating stuff.
So are you saying that the only requirement and only purpose of ID is to establish there is an intelligent designer? Nothing more, nothing less?
No, see above.
If so, why do they challenge Neo-Darwinism? The site you gave me a link to states this is the purpose of ID.
I think it is important to realize that ID is not just a “Darwinism alternative.” First, it encompasses much more including e.g. fine tuning arguments in cosmology, etc. Second, ID does not dismiss neo-Darwinism in total. There is little controversy over the data (evidence) itself. IMO the real controversy is the “random” versus “designed or guided” focus. Looking at how chemistry works, how the laws of the universe work, and the mathematics of probabilistic resources, it becomes apparent that “random” just doesn’t get you there - even when natural selection if involved. For natural selection to work, the “random” mutations have to be there to begin with, and there just isn’t enough time or enough “stuff” for it to occur randomly (i.e.without guidance).
What wrong with an intelligent designer who lets random, unpredicted and purposeless mutations occur because he/she/it wants to?
Designs are not random. Random designs don’t work. Designed processes are more efficient.
Atheistic evolutionists don’t hide their agenda. They are openly hostile to belief in God and religion. Theist who accept evolution are quite open about their intentions of exploring the compatibility of the Genesis account and the findings with modern science. I don’t think it’s out of turn to expect IDer’s with an agenda to be honest about it, particularly if they are very religious. Dishonesty looses credibility. That’s so what.
OK. But personal agendas are not the same as professional agendas. We all have personal agendas, don’t we?
OK, I’ll give you that one. Perhaps it’s not that the actual theory of ID is based on literal interpretations of Genesis, but rather a large percentage of IDer’s believe Genesis should be interpreted literally.
Those are religious beliefs which have nothing to do with ID.
 
It would make little difference if they did insist. However, to me the next logical would be who are what is this intelligent designer and I would argue that while ID doesn’t insist the leap is made, the fact that most of them would want it to demonstrates a large number of IDer’s promote ID with for religious intentions. I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. What’s wrong is claiming there is no religious intention if the next logical step after accepting ID is a step towards God.
For some people, the next logical leap after discovering the wonders of evolutionary randomness leading to humans is…a step towards God. Or so some say (I believe them).
What the site does say is it challenges Neo-Darwinism on the point of random, unpredictable mutations that are purposeless. I asked if you knew why IDer’s want to challenge this particular Neo-Darwinian opinion and no I’m not going to read the book, because I feel you should know.
It has to do with “probabilistic resources.” Not enough time, not enough stuff. (And yes, Rossum, I understand all about successful mutations reproductive advantages. So does the guy who wrote the book).
Answered above. Atheists want to discredit the bible, belief in God and religion in general and use evolution to do so. Theists want to address the major issue today of the compatibility of evolutionary theories with Genesis in light of developments in biblical scholarship - that’s were I stand in the grand scheme of things and I’m not afraid to say it.

And some people just like scientific inquiry.
Inquire into Signature in the Cell. You might like it.
 
You say that IC is due to ID, I say that IC is due to evolution. We do an experiment and we find IC. That does not allow us to decide if ID or evolution is correct since they both correctly predicted the result of the experiment.
Actually, the existence of IC would pretty well end the theory of evolution.

IC by definition cannot be evolved. It must be designed.
 
You say that IC is due to ID, I say that IC is due to evolution. We do an experiment and we find IC. That does not allow us to decide if ID or evolution is correct since they both correctly predicted the result of the experiment.

What we need is something where ID and evolution make different predictions. Then we can do the test and see what the result is.

If ID predicts green and evolution predicts purple, then we can do the experiment and see what colour we get. Green means ID wins, purple means evolution wins and red means both sides have some thinking to do.

That is how science works; you make predictions and you test them against experiment.

rossum
I may be misreading this, but it looks like you assume that if they predict the same thing that it is ID that is wrong, and evolution that is right. Why?

How do we absolutely know that evolution can create IC? I’m not talking about “it might have happened this way” or “given these conditions, it might have occurred this way”. I’m talking hard data - details of unguided, random DNA changes.

Of course, we know that intelligent designers can create IC. This post (poorly written as it is) is IC. And it didn’t take billions of years to do.
 
Someone brought up Irreducible Complexity.

I forgot the video (credited to CDK007), but I remember the principle. He discussed at least two examples that I recall:
  1. Eyes - The argument is that modern, developed eyes have too many individual components to have evolved jus la is valid. CDK pointed out that walking the eye backward over several stages offered eyes that approached developed eyes, and each were better than the first (the main forcing for the evolution of eyes would of course be an increase in visual acuity). Starting with a light-sensitive patch, then a pit, then a deeper pit, then a pit with a lens, etc etc.
  2. Bacterial Flagellum - CDK was able to demonstrate that the flagellum was irreducibly complex, but was also able to demonstrate various precursor constructs with different functions that could be demonstrated to lead to the flagellum.
IC doesn’t carry much water as it’s easily circumvented.
 
Someone brought up Irreducible Complexity.

I forgot the video (credited to CDK007), but I remember the principle. He discussed at least two examples that I recall:
  1. Eyes - The argument is that modern, developed eyes have too many individual components to have evolved jus la is valid. CDK pointed out that walking the eye backward over several stages offered eyes that approached developed eyes, and each were better than the first (the main forcing for the evolution of eyes would of course be an increase in visual acuity). Starting with a light-sensitive patch, then a pit, then a deeper pit, then a pit with a lens, etc etc.
  2. Bacterial Flagellum - CDK was able to demonstrate that the flagellum was irreducibly complex, but was also able to demonstrate various precursor constructs with different functions that could be demonstrated to lead to the flagellum.
IC doesn’t carry much water as it’s easily circumvented.
They may have convinced themselves that evolution did it, somehow, but that’s not difficult to do.

So did evolution predict the DNA changes that occurred?

Do evolutionists have any record of the DNA changing over time, the sequence of changes? (The answer is “no”). They will say “Well it could have happened this way, or perhaps it happened that way.” They have nothing but speculation.
 
Ricmat: Actually, evolution is a well-documented process, especially recently. A very quick google search can find two or three articles. Better, searching a peer-reviewed journal like Nature.

Evolution doesn’t “predict” anything. It’s not a predictive process. It’s a function of mutation over successive generations. Like turning a wolf into a chihuahua through directed breeding.
 
Evolution doesn’t “predict” anything. It’s not a predictive process.
Oh, I thought they really liked predictive processes, since they demand ID to be predictive if it is to be considered real science.
It’s a function of mutation over successive generations. Like turning a wolf into a chihuahua through directed breeding.
Uhhh…turning a wolf into a chihuahua is not an example of evolution. It is, in fact, an example of intelligent design. Directed breeding (selective breeding) is an intelligently designed process, and each step in the process is “guided”, not random.

If you took a bunch of wolves and told them to randomly “go to it”, how long would it take to get a chihuahua? (Answer - it hasn’t happened yet.)

How long did it take using ID to go from wolf to chihuahua? (Answer - maybe 10,000 years, and even then, that had some periods of minimal “guidance” along the way.)
 
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