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dixieagle
Guest
Yup. Evolution is God’s “modus operandi”. No need to get our Catholic knickers in a twist at all.
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balt_orioles54
Guest
Thanks, Ed . . . Found it at Amazon (click here) - will read it. Good find. :hey_bud::ballspin:
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balt_orioles54
Guest
You are out of your element here Rossum. There is nothing clearer than DNA providing instruction, information on how to form a biological entity. Perhaps consider going through this simple slide show process. Click here to read it. :ballspin:
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buffalo
Guest
Nice reference.
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edwest2
Guest
We have to be careful. If too many things are assigned to being outside of God’s control then we end up, at least in the Old Testament, with the God who did nothing or the God who did this but not that.
From Communion & Stewardship:
“A growing body of scientific critics of neo-Darwinism point to evidence of design (e.g., biological structures that exhibit specified complexity) that, in their view, cannot be explained in terms of a purely contingent process and that neo-Darwinians have ignored or misinterpreted. The nub of this currently lively disagreement involves scientific observation and generalization concerning whether the available data support inferences of design or chance, and cannot be settled by theology. But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).”
Peace,
Ed
From Communion & Stewardship:
“A growing body of scientific critics of neo-Darwinism point to evidence of design (e.g., biological structures that exhibit specified complexity) that, in their view, cannot be explained in terms of a purely contingent process and that neo-Darwinians have ignored or misinterpreted. The nub of this currently lively disagreement involves scientific observation and generalization concerning whether the available data support inferences of design or chance, and cannot be settled by theology. But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).”
Peace,
Ed
I take exception here.
Many believe evolution is the MO. But it does not fit all circumstance.
So we know that whatever people may think of the theory it is not the answer in all cases.
The actual MO is unknown to us.
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rossum
Guest
I am well within my element.
You really need to read up on the chemical properties, and physical structure, of transfer RNA (tRNA). It is tRNA which assembles the protein along the strand of messenger RNA (mRNA) to make the protein. Chemistry. All chemistry. Nothing but chemistry.
God may have designed the sub-atomic particles which underlie the chemistry. Why would He need to intervene further? Was His original design imperfect?
The God of ID implies a God who makes errors and needs to nudge things now and then to keep them on track. The God of Saint Thomas Aquinas does not need to nudge things:“The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency”
- Summa.
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buffalo
Guest
The chemistry is the physical means that the information is transmitted.
The God of IDvolution “breathed” information into the super language of DNA that runs the show. As a result of sin the “system” is now broken. His original intention was not a fallen world. However, it is fallen and perhaps God does need to do some fix up work.
Food for thought - could man in his arrogance muck it up so bad God would have to intervene? If so, one has to wonder how bad.
Manipulation of his creation does not imply any imperfection.
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rossum
Guest
There are two pool players. The first player lines up her shot and strikes the cue ball. Her shot is perfectly set up and all the balls end up exactly where she planned for them to end up.
The second player lines up his shot and strikes the cue ball. While the balls are still moving he can see that things are not going quite as he had wanted, so he nudges the cue ball back onto the correct track. Again, all the balls end up exactly where he wanted.
Which one is the better player, the first or the second?
rossum
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seagal
Guest
I agree with you Tony, the options aren’t mutually exclusive.I believe it is a false trilemma because God designed and **created **the laws of nature without which life would not have evolved…
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seagal
Guest
Just had a flashback to an old Get Smart episode, the one where Max is playing pool and 99 is manipulating the balls with her magnetic lipstick. The young whippersnappers probably don’t know what I’m talking about.
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minkymurph
Guest
If you’ve ever had the sad misfortune of going out late on a Saturday night in the town I live in, or had the sad misfortune of being governed by the morons people in this part of the world in their infinite wisdom elect, you would know how bad man can muck it up!
Personally I think it’s evidence of de-evolution, and there are some people moving backwards. So much so some have even lost the ability to speak in a language that can be recognized a human, and have lost the cognitive ability to work out for themselves they can walk around a stationary object rather than stare at it, hoping it will move of it’s own accord. I would also say man does have the arrogance to muck things up so badly God has to intervene.
The Bible is full of examples of time God intervenes and times He chooses not to. We don’t know why God sometimes chooses to intervene, and sometimes chooses not to. Unless your a Calvinist. In which case you would say our fallen world and all the bad things that happen in it are part of God great plan and He means it all to happen. In addition, God nudges us all the time in many ways. Who’s to say he does not nudge the physical world? It is, after all, His creation.
I agree with you that DNA is the physical/biological means by which information is transmitted. The extent to which God micro-manages that in terms of creation of new life, and environmental change among other things, is anybodies guess. I like the way you use term ‘God breathed’ as it echoes the great literary imagery of Genesis. However, as God does not have breath in the human sense, the physical mechanism by which God created life is unknown to us.
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minkymurph
Guest
I would agree with you. We don’t want to stray into the area of believing in a God that created life and then left us all to it. There’s a name for that, but it escapes me at the minute.
There is a need for balance. Theists who accept evolution try to find that balance. Not because they simply want to marry their faith with science to make it more attractive. It is a search for truth.
While science is not divinely inspired, we should be open to the fact it may be true and through it, God is communicating knowledge of Himself to us. If the findings of science are true, it cannot contradict our faith because truth does not contradict truth.
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donsnow
Guest
Hi, all,
I am enjoying and benefiting from ya’ll’s debate. Thanks.
God loves all of you,
Don
I am enjoying and benefiting from ya’ll’s debate. Thanks.
God loves all of you,
Don
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buffalo
Guest
What if the other player puts his hand in front of the ball to try and stop it and it still goes in?
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buffalo
Guest
The fact that every generation has more deleterious mutations does suggest devolution.If you’ve ever had the sad misfortune of going out late on a Saturday night in the town I live in, or had the sad misfortune of being governed by the morons people in this part of the world in their infinite wisdom elect, you would know how bad man can muck it up!
Personally I think it’s evidence of de-evolution, and there are some people moving backwards. So much so some have even lost the ability to speak in a language that can be recognized a human, and have lost the cognitive ability to work out for themselves they can walk around a stationary object rather than stare at it, hoping it will move of it’s own accord. I would also say man does have the arrogance to muck things up so badly God has to intervene.
The Bible is full of examples of time God intervenes and times He chooses not to. We don’t know why God sometimes chooses to intervene, and sometimes chooses not to. Unless your a Calvinist. In which case you would say our fallen world and all the bad things that happen in it are part of God great plan and He means it all to happen. In addition, God nudges us all the time in many ways. Who’s to say he does not nudge the physical world? It is, after all, His creation.
I agree with you that DNA is the physical/biological means by which information is transmitted. The extent to which God micro-manages that in terms of creation of new life, and environmental change among other things, is anybodies guess. I like the way you use term ‘God breathed’ as it echoes the great literary imagery of Genesis. However, as God does not have breath in the human sense, the physical mechanism by which God created life is unknown to us.
Catholics historically have had no problem with this as we know Adam to be the prototypical human with preternatural gifts. God created Adam in a pristine genetic condition. It is all downhill from there.
In today’s culture people think they are better than their parents. That is a recent change as traditionally parents were respected as being one generation closer to Adam and Eve.
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buffalo
Guest
With this caveat - the science must be reasoned correctly illuminated by the truth (God).
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Al_Moritz
Guest
Re-phrase:
“With this caveat - the philosophical interpretation of the results of science must be reasoned correctly illuminated by the truth (God).”
Science (the natural sciences) uses methodological naturalism, the search for natural causes for effects in nature, as method (not to be confused with the philosophy of metaphysical naturalism). If it does not, it is not science, period.
Science proper is neither theistic not atheistic. Science is neutral in worldview, it is simply a tool to investigate the natural world. It is indifferent to the worldviews of its practitioners (the scientists).
As a scientist, I try to do my work for the glory of God. However, the method that I use, methodological naturalism, is the same as my atheist colleagues use. That method, by the way, has been developed by the scientists who started the scientific revolution, and who were all believers – the method is not an ‘atheistic invention’.
Of course, when it comes to the philosophical interpretation of the results of science I part ways with my atheist colleagues. But this has nothing to do with science proper.
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edwest2
Guest
I am open to the truth but science should know its place. It is only a tool for finding some answers to some questions. It cannot be regarded as the only source of knowledge. Otherwise, who do we believe in and who do we pray to? Why was Jesus Christ born? Why are we told in Scripture, by one man sin entered the world?
I am interested primarily in what the Church teaches.
Peace,
Ed
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