Creationism v. Intelligent Design v. Evolution

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rossum

It didn’t even have to be “just right”. It just had to be “less wrong than all the others”. Once it got started it would be an imperfect replicator and evolution could start refining it from “less wrong” to “pretty good” to “just right”.

“imperfect replicator”?

Please!
 
A mindless, unconscious, non-goal oriented mechanism can refine? It has no base standard to determine which way to go. Less fit or functional to more fit or functional. Either direction is fine.

Peace,
Ed
 
First you admit that God designed the laws of chance (didn’t you just say that?). Then you say that God does not intervene in the laws of chance.

Is that a bit of equivocation? Obviously, if God designed the laws of chance, by your own logic the laws of chance are playing themselves out in a way designed by God so that there must be interventions here and there.
From the Church document Communion and Stewardship, paragraph 69 (pay close attention to what it says):

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html

But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).
Do you mean to say that God designed the laws of chance but that an entirely different universe than the one we inhabit might have come about since God was not able to direct (intervene in) the process at any point?
An entirely different universe, no. For example, it seems now clear that there is convergence in biological evolution – many different roads lead to the same or similar outcomes. For example, the eye evolved around 40 times in the animal kingdom independently.

Also, I would think that God would have known the outcome of the Big Bang already beforehand, since He is omniscient.
Does God just create the laws of chance and then walk away and hope for the best? This is dangerously close to Deism. So are you a Catholic, or a Deist, or are you a Catholic transiting into Deism, or what?
Deism is excluded, since according to both doctrine of the Catholic Church and classical Thomistic metaphysics God sustains creation in being at all times.*) We have had this discussion before on this board. God is not the watchmaker who winds up the universe and let’s it go.

Also, deism is excluded by God’s works of special creation: the human soul, the realm of angels. And it is excluded by God’s interaction with the human soul on a spiritual level. It is also excluded by miracles.

*) God: esse (being), creatures: actus essendi (act of being). Creatures obtain their actus essendi from God.
I understand that you are reluctant as a scientist to admit proof of God’s intervention, but certainly you can be a Catholic and a scientist and reconcile the two in your own mind.
Yes, I can reconcile the two. As I just outlined.
 
It didn’t even have to be “just right”. It just had to be “less wrong than all the others”. Once it got started it would be an imperfect replicator and evolution could start refining it from “less wrong” to “pretty good” to “just right”.

rossum
Obviously, I meant “just right” in the sense that replication could take place at all.
 
I don’t see any problem with that. Even if the chances are just, let’s say, 1 in 1 million years, in terms of geological deep time this is irrelevant. What does it matter if life arose 3.826 or 3.827 billion years ago?
But you are stating that you KNOW it is true. And what if the chances are 1 in 10^39000 years? Then do you know it is true? Geological time seems long, but take a look at the probabilistic resources available (time is part of the equation, obviously), even in a best case scenario. I suggested reading Signature in the Cell. The focus is not on probabilistic resources, although it is mentioned. In fact, it’s not even about why evolution is wrong - but rather why design offers a better scientific explanation. Even if you disagreed with the conclusions, you would get a lot out of it since (I gather) you are in the biology business, whereas I’m in the electrical engineering business and can’t appreciate some of the biology references.
You are dead wrong here. Evolution does increase information, e.g. by the very ordinary process of gene duplication and then mutating the duplicated gene, and subsequent natural selection.
You seem immune to my point.

Natural selection does not make any new information. Do you agree with this or not?

Random mutations can in theory make new information, but natural selection by itself cannot. Do you agree with this or not?
None necessarily. I cannot exclude that God intervened here and there, but there is no scientific basis for the assumption that this had to be so.
So my example of someone who can tell you the day of the week for a given date thousands of years in advance, without even thinking about it, evolution is responsible for that?
God designed them.
Common ground. At last! 🙂
Why should God constantly intervene in a process that He created that does not need intervention?
Why should a music composer sometimes wish to be the orchestra conductor?
Of course God cares about us, and our soul is a special creation by God. But why do you need constant intervention for the material processes that made our bodies? Why would God have to intervene constantly only to show He cares?
I “need” constant (or non at least non-random) intervention because e.g. selective breeding works better than [random mutations + natural selection.] It’s the only way to get from dust to us in 4 billion years.

And if God never intervenes as you suggest, well, what does that suggest? Genesis 1 certainly suggests a God that intervenes. As does all of the Bible.
You seem to have a pretty anthropomorphic view of God.
anthropomorphic
adj : suggesting human characteristics for animals or inanimate things

No, I definitely don’t suggest that God is an animal or inanimate thing. Are you trying to insult me? 😃 If so, you’ll need to try harder 😛

However, I do suggest some Godlike characteristics for humans. “Image and likeness of God.” Life is practice for heaven. God made us like him for a reason (and I suppose, limited our omnipotence for a different reason).
So God also planned precisely for our particular parents to meet through all contingencies in life, and He performed a detailed mixing of our parent’s genes at the moment of conception?
We have free will, and much of what we do, with associated consequences, is our own doing. But yes, there are some circumstances in my own life in which I believe God did intervene. Have you ever thought about your own life, and looked back with “almost” 20/20 vision? Of course, if you don’t believe there’s anything to be seen, you won’t see anything regardless. And of course, everything I might mention could just be dismissed as a coincidence.😉
If you really want to adhere to such a theology, it makes an explanation of the problem of evil awfully hard. If God did such precise mixing, why didn’t He repair all the nucleotides in our DNA responsible for genetic diseases while He was at it?
The question of why God allows there to be evil in the world has hamstrung a lot of folks. Personally, I believe that God allows evil because without actually seeing evil, how can we appreciate “good?” Knowledge of “good” requires that there be an evil to contrast it with - and choose between. And evil acts offer opportunities for us to grow in love. If everything were hunky-dory all the time, we’d have lots fewer opportunities to grow in love.
To espouse such a ‘puppet-on-a-string’ theology would be very dangerous indeed. It would also make the concept of free will difficult, by the way.
God allows us to do evil, so that a greater good can come of it (if not for ourselves, then for someone else.) It does not make the concept of free will difficult, rather, if there were no evil, then free will would become meaningless.

Another book that I found to be very good is “Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence” - TAN books. The saints who wrote it make a case that God in fact is responsible for everything that happens to us - be it either by an act of his active will, or an act of his permissive will. But…everything that happens to us, or others, is in some way for our benefit. Defective DNA included.
 
Another book that I found to be very good is “Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence” - TAN books. The saints who wrote it make a case that God in fact is responsible for everything that happens to us - be it either by an act of his active will, or an act of his permissive will. But…everything that happens to us, or others, is in some way for our benefit. Defective DNA included.
Aah, now here we agree.
 
A mindless, unconscious, non-goal oriented mechanism can refine? It has no base standard to determine which way to go. Less fit or functional to more fit or functional. Either direction is fine.

Peace,
Ed
Hey, if they have it both ways, it’s never wrong :rolleyes:
 
I’m not going to challenge anything you say as to scientific facts. It’s just that the way you put everything together seems too chancy. 😉
Another point: the laws of nature are so incredibly fine-tuned that this alone undercuts the argument of “chanciness”.
 
No, I don’t think materialism explains everything in practice. However, I believe that it probably can in principle. Certainly it’s the case that everything that ever has been explained, has done so within the boundaries of materialism. I’m happy to be proved wrong, I’m not particularly dogmatic about it… but I would have to be proved wrong, not just given an example of something which materialistic science can’t explain currently, and which no other form of investigation can either.

“Spiritual” is such a nebulous term. Are you talking about consciousness? About emotion? Why do you conjecture that science will never be able to explain them? What alternative investigative process do you propose that provides a suitable explanation for “spiritual?”

No, they don’t have to. People are free to hold whatever opinion they like, and I wouldn’t dream of denying them that freedom. However, if they want their opinion to be accepted as reality or truth, they need to do a little more than just point to the current limitation of materialistic investigation and state that their baseless supernatural hypothesis wins by default. That’s just the argument from ignorance.

Science is evolving all the time, it’s a foolish person that assumes that the current state of empirical knowledge is the best it’ll ever be.
Will science ever be able to empirically detect the supernatural?
 
Another point: the laws of nature are so incredibly fine-tuned that this alone undercuts the argument of “chanciness”.
Ah, auto-pilot. Well, God’s probably pretty busy with other things.

But on the other hand, I’m delighted that you believe the laws of nature were designed. 🙂
 
You are dead wrong here. Evolution does increase information, e.g. by the very ordinary process of gene duplication and then mutating the duplicated gene, and subsequent natural selection.

None necessarily. I cannot exclude that God intervened here and there, but there is no scientific basis for the assumption that this had to be so.

God designed them.

Why should God constantly intervene in a process that He created that does not need intervention? Of course God cares about us, and our soul is a special creation by God. But why do you need constant intervention for the material processes that made our bodies? Why would God have to intervene constantly only to show He cares? You seem to have a pretty anthropomorphic view of God.

So God also planned precisely for our particular parents to meet through all contingencies in life, and He performed a detailed mixing of our parent’s genes at the moment of conception?

If you really want to adhere to such a theology, it makes an explanation of the problem of evil awfully hard. If God did such precise mixing, why didn’t He repair all the nucleotides in our DNA responsible for genetic diseases while He was at it? To espouse such a ‘puppet-on-a-string’ theology would be very dangerous indeed. It would also make the concept of free will difficult, by the way.
Genetic entropy would suggest different.

Perhaps He needs to intervene because humans do not pray enough.

You know darn well the reason God permits evil.
 
Given that then you probably would have had trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of random RNA sequences floating on the Earth, the chances that one of them was just right might not have been bad at all.
I would think the odds for the flying spaghetti monster are better.:rotfl:
 
Al

Also, I would think that God would have known the outcome of the Big Bang already beforehand, since He is omniscient.

Not only known it but ordained it.

**Why should God constantly intervene in a process that He created that does not need intervention? **

But isn’t God constantly intervening by the fact that the universe exists and is sustained in its existence by the power of God?

And if God cannot intervene at will, then are miracles impossible in your view?

Given that then you probably would have had trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of random RNA sequences floating on the Earth, the chances that one of them was just right might not have been bad at all.

Ah, here we go again with the mighty “might.” :rolleyes:
 
**Why should God constantly intervene in a process that He created that does not need intervention? **

But isn’t God constantly intervening by the fact that the universe exists and is sustained in its existence by the power of God?
If you interpret the meaning of “intervene” that way, I do not object.
And if God cannot intervene at will, then are miracles impossible in your view?
Obviously you have not read my post carefully, since you missed the bit about miracles, but only let your eyes fly over it until you felt the red-hot impulse to reply in indignation. Please read again, this time calmly and carefully. And please study the passage from Communion and Stewardship carefully.

Of course God can intervene at will. After all, He is God.
 
IMHO The entirety of Genesis 1 is the story of God taking chaos, and then conceiving, organizing / designing, and building something from it. That seems to be one of the lessons we are to learn from Gen1. I don’t disagree that the outcome is art of the highest form, but the process described there I would argue is closely attuned to “engineering.” IMHO God is both an engineer and an artist. 🙂

Is 45:18 For thus says the LORD, The creator of the heavens, who is God, The designer and maker of the earth who established it, Not creating it to be a waste, but designing it to be lived in: I am the LORD, and there is no other.

So the first RNA arises by chance. Faith alone. Or did you see it happen personally. Or maybe someone you know saw it personally?

And then everything that follows is driven by random mutations. (Remember that NS cannot create anything new, it just establishes preferences for things that already there)

In your view, short of providing humans with souls, is there anything evolution can’t do? Is there any other aspect of humans that is not an outcome of evolution?

What about “instincts / natures?” What about the idiot savants who can tell you what day of the week August 9th, 5743 will be without even thinking about it? Natural selection did that eh? Indeed that’s a survival skill that is highly advantageous to have :rolleyes:

So I take it you disagree with the laws of nature being there “just by chance.” So, are they designed or not?

But above you state that the first replicating RNA arises by chance. And all subsequent changes are a result of random mutations. If you leave some room here for God’s intervention - exactly where is it? God got things started “in the beginning” and then put his feet up and turned on the auto-pilot switch? If God cares enough about us to hold the entirety of creation in existence, it seems to me that he probably doesn’t rely on auto-pilot all that much.
It’s interesting how many people theorize that if something has a “chance” of happening it will undoubtedly come to pass. And if the chance of a thing occurring is so infinitesimally small that it cannot possibly happen in the real world (such as something coming from nothing), evolutionists simply just add lots of time into the mix in order to rationalize to themselves that something coming from nothing really could happen.
 
It’s interesting how many people theorize that if something has a “chance” of happening it will undoubtedly come to pass. And if the chance of a thing occurring is so infinitesimally small that it cannot possibly happen in the real world (such as something coming from nothing), evolutionists simply just add lots of time into the mix in order to rationalize to themselves that something coming from nothing really could happen.
The core issue, really. Even with incredible amounts of time in which to take place, life is phenomenally unlikely to occur. If it occurs in the way current scientific theory assumes it must have, which, remember, is still not proven to actually be possible nevermind to have actually happened, no matter how much anyone here tries to dress it up as a moot point…

As for intelligent life, the chances for that occuring as the result of random mutation (with or without it’s cosy, misleading metaphor, “adaption”) is so absurdly low, to believe that such has occurred by chance strikes me as irrational! :eek:

Or at least it does when I’ve got the stats… anyone remember what they are? At one point I thought it was 10 to the power of 40,000, but apparently that’s the number of particles in the universe… anyone know what the figure actually is, so I can keep quoting a number in arguments like this? 🤷
 
It’s interesting how many people theorize that if something has a “chance” of happening it will undoubtedly come to pass. And if the chance of a thing occurring is so infinitesimally small that it cannot possibly happen in the real world (such as something coming from nothing), evolutionists simply just add lots of time into the mix in order to rationalize to themselves that something coming from nothing really could happen.
That is the irrationality of it in a nutshell. It is a religion in and of itself with lots of faith.
 
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