Creationism v. Intelligent Design v. Evolution

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I take your point.

Yes, Divine Revelation is true, and areas were faith and reason intersect have to true. I intend to discuss this in more detail in another post.
Please note that there is a current ban on evolution discussion in apologetic forums

Sticky: Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/misc_khaki/multipage.gif 1 2)
Jo Benedict

Evolution can be discussed in Back Fence Forum provided that the two sets of guidelines are followed. See info found in sticky notes at top of forum.
 
Please note that there is a current ban on evolution discussion in apologetic forums

Sticky: Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/misc_khaki/multipage.gif 1 2)
Jo Benedict

Evolution can be discussed in Back Fence Forum provided that the two sets of guidelines are followed. See info found in sticky notes at top of forum.
Really? How come we’re discussing it here?

Not that it makes any difference to what I was going to say in my next post what I have to say relates to monogenism; which is already being discussed by others, and biblical scholarship concerning Genesis.
 
Evolutionism is philosophy. It does not meet the empirical test, that is, observable, testable, repeatable and predictable.
You’ll have a hard time getting the world’s scientists to assent to that claim!
 
Propose a paper on your theory to a scientific society. See how far you get. This should be interesting…
I wonder :hmmm:If we took a poll of biologists how many would have any education in philosophy? And, if so do they understand where the line is between science and philosophy?
 
I wonder :hmmm:If we took a poll of biologists how many would have any education in philosophy? And, if so do they understand where the line is between science and philosophy?
Sounds like an interesting project. I’ll research whether such a poll has been conducted.
 
What? Name a dogma that has been reversed.

Monogenism insignificant? Oh my…
Monogenism is significant to Catholics who believe it contradicts the Church’s teaching on original sin. That being the case, it deserves thorough examination.

I personally would have no difficulty with polygenism, but some Catholics would refute this on the basis that it contradicts the Church’s teaching on ‘original sin.’ However, was the belief we all descended from one human pair the divine truth the author of Genesis communicating? The Genesis account is a theological account concerning the origins of not one man, not a scientific one. Therefore, it should be read as such. The construction of the text of Genesis itself indicates the author uses the name ‘Adam’ to explain not the creation of one man, but the entire human race. In the original Hebrew ‘Adam’ is not just an identifier, but is used to describe what it is to be human. ‘Adam’ translates into English as ‘red’ or blood and ‘man’ in the plural sense. I wouldn’t be qualified to go into the construction of Hebrew nouns and verbs, or the literary construction of ancient texts. Maybe someone else here can. What I can say based on the findings of Catholic exegesist’s among others, is that the author uses ‘Adam’ in Genesis 2: 7 to represent the entire human race. In short, the author’s use of ‘Adam’ in the accounts creation and the fall represents not one man or one pair, but a group of humans in the plural sense.

Based on biblical scholarship, polygenism is compatible with the Genesis account. However, I would say it has implications for Church teaching on original sin if the Church has declared the belief that we descended from one human pair as a divine truth. One of my theology lecturers is a priest and I asked him if the Church teaches we all descended from one human pair. His answer was, the Church has never taught we all descended from one human pair. Exactly what happened and how in relation to original sin is unknown to us. Based on the Genesis account, Adam being the first man in a group of humans to be created committing the original sin, the rest of the group following suit and passing it on, or a group of humans all committing the same original sin and then passing it on, are both compatible with both Church teaching and Genesis. I suppose the argument now is, does the Church say the belief we all descended from one pair is a divine truth and must be believed or did they not?
 
Monogenism is significant to Catholics who believe it contradicts the Church’s teaching on original sin. That being the case, it deserves thorough examination.

I personally would have no difficulty with polygenism, but some Catholics would refute this on the basis that it contradicts the Church’s teaching on ‘original sin.’ However, was the belief we all descended from one human pair the divine truth the author of Genesis communicating? The Genesis account is a theological account concerning the origins of not one man, not a scientific one. Therefore, it should be read as such. The construction of the text of Genesis itself indicates the author uses the name ‘Adam’ to explain not the creation of one man, but the entire human race. In the original Hebrew ‘Adam’ is not just an identifier, but is used to describe what it is to be human. ‘Adam’ translates into English as ‘red’ or blood and ‘man’ in the plural sense. I wouldn’t be qualified to go into the construction of Hebrew nouns and verbs, or the literary construction of ancient texts. Maybe someone else here can. What I can say based on the findings of Catholic exegesist’s among others, is that the author uses ‘Adam’ in Genesis 2: 7 to represent the entire human race. In short, the author’s use of ‘Adam’ in the accounts creation and the fall represents not one man or one pair, but a group of humans in the plural sense.

Based on biblical scholarship, polygenism is compatible with the Genesis account. However, I would say it has implications for Church teaching on original sin if the Church has declared the belief that we descended from one human pair as a divine truth. One of my theology lecturers is a priest and I asked him if the Church teaches we all descended from one human pair. His answer was, the Church has never taught we all descended from one human pair. Exactly what happened and how in relation to original sin is unknown to us. Based on the Genesis account, Adam being the first man in a group of humans to be created committing the original sin, the rest of the group following suit and passing it on, or a group of humans all committing the same original sin and then passing it on, are both compatible with both Church teaching and Genesis. I suppose the argument now is, does the Church say the belief we all descended from one pair is a divine truth and must be believed or did they not?
The constant teaching and understanding of the Church has been Adam and Eve. I would like to see his source.

The only way to go with this is his claim, that the Church never taught it, or if we did we got it wrong all these years, which brings up all sorts of problems, one being, was the Holy Spirit the protector of truth sleeping?
 
Really? How come we’re discussing it here?

Not that it makes any difference to what I was going to say in my next post what I have to say relates to monogenism; which is already being discussed by others, and biblical scholarship concerning Genesis.
? maybe it is discussed here because of monogenism issue. I don’t judge Moderators’ actions. I respect and definitely agree with the ban even though I cannot post as I would like to.

Personally, I prefer to discuss anything “scientific” in Back Fence where I can work with actual research.

Blessings,
granny

Bible means Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth
 
Monogenism is significant to Catholics who believe it contradicts the Church’s teaching on original sin. That being the case, it deserves thorough examination.

I personally would have no difficulty with polygenism, but some Catholics would refute this on the basis that it contradicts the Church’s teaching on ‘original sin.’ However, was the belief we all descended from one human pair the divine truth the author of Genesis communicating? The Genesis account is a theological account concerning the origins of not one man, not a scientific one. Therefore, it should be read as such. The construction of the text of Genesis itself indicates the author uses the name ‘Adam’ to explain not the creation of one man, but the entire human race. In the original Hebrew ‘Adam’ is not just an identifier, but is used to describe what it is to be human. ‘Adam’ translates into English as ‘red’ or blood and ‘man’ in the plural sense. I wouldn’t be qualified to go into the construction of Hebrew nouns and verbs, or the literary construction of ancient texts. Maybe someone else here can. What I can say based on the findings of Catholic exegesist’s among others, is that the author uses ‘Adam’ in Genesis 2: 7 to represent the entire human race. In short, the author’s use of ‘Adam’ in the accounts creation and the fall represents not one man or one pair, but a group of humans in the plural sense.

Based on biblical scholarship, polygenism is compatible with the Genesis account. However, I would say it has implications for Church teaching on original sin if the Church has declared the belief that we descended from one human pair as a divine truth. One of my theology lecturers is a priest and I asked him if the Church teaches we all descended from one human pair. His answer was, the Church has never taught we all descended from one human pair. Exactly what happened and how in relation to original sin is unknown to us. Based on the Genesis account, Adam being the first man in a group of humans to be created committing the original sin, the rest of the group following suit and passing it on, or a group of humans all committing the same original sin and then passing it on, are both compatible with both Church teaching and Genesis. I suppose the argument now is, does the Church say the belief we all descended from one pair is a divine truth and must be believed or did they not?
Good Grief!

Apparently, Hebrew authors are smart enough to use the principle of “both-and” which continually eludes a number of posters.

Regarding the above mentioned lecturer: All one has to do is to check the footnotes in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. (Citation is paragraphs 355 - 421) Should I be suggesting that it would be beneficial to read the paragraphs themselves?
 
I personally would have no difficulty with polygenism, but some Catholics would refute this on the basis that it contradicts the Church’s teaching on ‘original sin.’ However, was the belief we all descended from one human pair the divine truth the author of Genesis communicating?
It is Divine Revelation that there are two, real, sole parents of the human species. This truth, basic to the economy of salvation, is part of the Catholic Deposit of Faith.
Based on biblical scholarship, polygenism is compatible with the Genesis account.
Based on current scientific theories, polygenism is not compatible with the first three chapters of Genesis
 
The constant teaching and understanding of the Church has been Adam and Eve. I would like to see his source.

The only way to go with this is his claim, that the Church never taught it, or if we did we got it wrong all these years, which brings up all sorts of problems, one being, was the Holy Spirit the protector of truth sleeping?
Well, if the Church never taught it, the Church didn’t get it wrong and the Holy Spirit isn’t sleeping.

I have to be perfectly honest. I can’t tell you his source. If I could, I would, but I can’t. Hands up to the offence. The reason I asked him is because I am a convert to Catholicism and I haven’t been a Catholic very long. Meaning, my experience of Catholicism is recent and I have no experience of Catholicism prior to that. I started posting on CAF to find out more about the Catholic faith and what has confused me is the variety of opinion out there concerning what the Church actually teaches. How am I supposed to know who to believe? People tell me to read the Catechism. There are as many interpretations of the Catholic Catechism out there as Protestant interpretations of scripture. How do I know which one is ‘it’? Everyone claims the way they read it is the way the Church means it. Then I have atheism, the march of science and historical, literary and redaction criticism to deal with. :hypno:

What I want is to know truth and as a student RE teacher, teach truth, nurture faith in others, and strive for Christian Unity. I’m very passionate about Christian unity. That’s why I discuss Genesis, evolution etc. All I can say to you that according to my understanding, yes - the Church does teach Adam and Eve. I believe they were real people. To me, polygenism would not change that. I mean, if humans are real people, the first humans must have been real people. It’s just common sense that the first humans were real people. There just may have been more than two real people. Would it be a big deal if the first man’s mates didn’t actually call him Adam, and that is the name the author of Genesis gave him 'cos they didn’t actually know what is was? Would it be a big deal if a group of humans, of whom one was called Adam, all committed the original sin and the one called Adam passed it on to us? Would it be a big deal if one man created, then another and another were all created directly by God in short space time, and the first that was created was formed through a series of stages now known as evolution committed the original sin and the rest of them all followed suit? There are all sorts of permeatations. None of which change Church doctrine. If there’s one thing I’ve learned as a convert to Catholicism, it’s be prepared to change your mind about the bible and the relationship between science and religion. Maybe that’s what makes me open to all the permeatations.
 
Based on current scientific theories, polygenism is not compatible with the first three chapters of Genesis
Based on current scientific theories, plate tectonics, gravity, special relativity, and the medical roots of disease are not compatible with the first three chapters of Genesis.
 
It is Divine Revelation that there are two, real, sole parents of the human species. This truth, basic to the economy of salvation, is part of the Catholic Deposit of Faith.
Forgive me for saying I’m not convinced. The reason I am not convinced, is because of conflicting views among Catholics concerning what is Divine Revelation and what is part of the Deposit of Faith. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but is it not more sensible to listen to someone you know and trust than someone you only know through posting on the internet?
Based on current scientific theories, polygenism is not compatible with the first three chapters of Genesis
I read this several times to try and understand it. I can’t. What do you mean 'based on scientific theories polygenism is not compatible with Genesis? Since when did it make any difference if scientific theories support anything in relation to Genesis? I’ve actually read the statement again here to try and understand it. Are you saying scientists don’t think polygenism is compatible with Genesis? Therefore, scientists think Genesis is wrong and their opinions should be disregarded? My line of argument wasn’t based on a scientific theory. It was based on biblical scholarship in relation to the actual text of Genesis itself. What if the Church says the intentions of the author of Genesis was not to pass on, ‘we all came from human pair’ as a divine truth based on biblical scholarship? They’ve moderated their understanding of 'no salvation outside the Church among other things. How will you feel if they moderate their view on monogenism? Personally I think they will.
 
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