Creationism vs Evolution in public schools

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You aren’t evil or even angry; you are merely projecting your own uncertainty onto others.
I can say with great confidence, he is not the one projecting uncertainty here.

How many people have to tell you that you are misunderstanding and misinterpreting everything for you to actually start believing us?
 
I can say with great confidence, he is not the one projecting uncertainty here.
Actually, Cat Herder does not project uncertainty–he/she appears to be quite certain that he/she is right. It’s just that he/she is exactly wrong!
How many people have to tell you that you are misunderstanding and misinterpreting everything for you to actually start believing us?
We have not found his/her action-potential yet! (another scientific term, CatHerder!)
 
What a waste of time this has been.

You people can attack me all you want but it doesn’t change the fact that evolution through natural selection alone is false.
 
You accuse me of reading evil into you while you do the same to me. Physician, heal thyself.

What is real is not the realm of science.

What is reasonable is not the realm or science either.

I see in your statement above so much cognitive dissonance that you are exploding. That explains why you are treating those who disagree with you with such contempt. You aren’t evil or even angry; you are merely projecting your own uncertainty onto others.
Cathearder, science deals ONLY with what is real. And the only uncertainty I have is the uncertainty that all scientists have in their understanding of personal knowledge.

Several people in this thread have tried to explain to you, first diplomatically and then more emphatically, that you are misrepresenting and/or misunderstanding several concepts, people, and ideas.

But you refuse to consider any of it. You have decided that Cat Hearder knows, and the rest of us don’t - even though you have admitted no training in some of the areas you discuss.

With this, I can only shake the dust from my feet. I have argued clearly and strongly. Hopefully people will read statements from you like your idea that science doesn’t deal with what is real (like biology - not real, electronics - not real, medicine - not real, etc.) and see how this statement makes no sense, and will respond to your additional statements accordingly.

With that, I am done with you in general. I will simply let people know when you are making additional incorrect statements, and will not bother with trying to help you to a better understanding.
 
Cathearder, science deals ONLY with what is real.
And if you’re right that science can’t deal with God, then God is not real. Therefore you are wrong. If you don’t realize this, your fundamental error, then I truly have wasted all my time. The dust shaking is mutual.
 
This statement is a non sequitur.
Darwin says the evolutionary outcome is survival of the fittest. Harvard University says “the evolutionary outcome is often not a fitness-maximizing equilibrium but can include oscillations and chaos.”

I’m going with Harvard. You can stick with Darwin if you want.

But what you can’t do is keep viciously attacking me. If the moderators aren’t going to deal with this problem then I am going to deal with it myself, by doing the only thing I can do: deleting my subscription and moving on.
 
By all means, the realm of science is that of the material and physical world. But that does not automatically eliminate the immaterial spiritual realm from inquiry as if it were non-existent.

Ah, one says. The immaterial cannot be put under a natural science microscope. True. But that does not exclude the reality of spiritual existence which can be known by the tools of reason, self reflection, logical evaluation, and analytical thought.

In other words, the fact that science does not deal with God has no effect on God’s existence. God is absolutely real, regardless.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
 
What a waste of time this has been.

You people can attack me all you want but it doesn’t change the fact that evolution through natural selection alone is false.
No spit, Sherlock. This is why schools don’t teach this (contrary to your earlier claim). This is why Darwin did not state it (contrary to your earlier claim). This is why the California standards do not state it (contrary to your earlier claim).

All we have said all along to your claims is that they are wrong. You have finally modified yourself now to be stating precisely what we have been telling you all along: evolutionary science does not claim that its ONLY method is natural selection.

If some group is feeding you these links, then you should be upset at THEM (and not us) for leading you down the wrong path to have been making those erroneous claims about schools and science and Darwinism and evolution.
 
Darwin says the evolutionary outcome is survival of the fittest. Harvard University says “the evolutionary outcome is often not a fitness-maximizing equilibrium but can include oscillations and chaos.”

I’m going with Harvard. You can stick with Darwin if you want.

But what you can’t do is keep viciously attacking me. If the moderators aren’t going to deal with this problem then I am going to deal with it myself, by doing the only thing I can do: deleting my subscription and moving on.
The phrase “survival of the fittest” was not originally Darwin’s.

even school-children today know that natural selection is not always about what is “most fit.”

Again: please keep reading on these topics so that you can learn what Darwin (150 years ago) said, and what others have said since then.

What’s your Harvard fixation? What is up wid dat?
 
And if you’re right that science can’t deal with God, then God is not real. Therefore you are wrong. If you don’t realize this, your fundamental error, then I truly have wasted all my time. The dust shaking is mutual.
The above statement is incorrect. From a scientific viewpoint, the status of God is unknown/unproven, not unreal. An assumption was made that real/unreal were the only possible choices.
 
Darwin says the evolutionary outcome is survival of the fittest. Harvard University says “the evolutionary outcome is often not a fitness-maximizing equilibrium but can include oscillations and chaos.”

I’m going with Harvard. You can stick with Darwin if you want.

But what you can’t do is keep viciously attacking me. If the moderators aren’t going to deal with this problem then I am going to deal with it myself, by doing the only thing I can do: deleting my subscription and moving on.
The above statements are a non sequitur. They have nothing to do with creation vs. evolution in the schools.
 
What a waste of time this has been.

You people can attack me all you want but it doesn’t change the fact that evolution through natural selection alone is false.
Which we have already told you at least half a dozen times - schools do not now, nor have they ever, taught that evolution is through natural selection alone.

And even if they did, being a science class, it would be in the context of science - meaning that natural selection would be the only scientific cause. No statement is made for or against non-scientific explanations. It’s just not within the scope of a science class to speculate about or assert, or even mention non-scientific explanations. God is a non-scientific explanation. Even chaos theory is mathematics, not science. Even if 100% true - even if proven 100%, it remains non-scientific, and thus outside the scope of a science class. Like I said before, you don’t go talking about the future in history classes. Even if this was the world of Minority Report and we could literally see into the future and know for a fact what was going to happen by watching it on tv screens, history professors would still not be teaching it because it’s not history.

Please don’t delete your subscription. We are trying to help. I can’t speak for larkin or kbachler, by I myself am just finding myself frustrated at having to repeat the same thing over and over and have you just talk past us. Or with me, you have yet to directly respond to a single post of mine. If that is expressed in my speech, I apologize.
 
Which we have already told you at least half a dozen times - schools do not now, nor have they ever, taught that evolution is through natural selection alone.
Yet, natural selection, survival of the fitness, going from ape to man was the early popular perception of evolution. Those famous drawings showing the sequence from a hunched over ape to a hunched over person ready for death are still around. Though currently, the hunched over person is sitting at his computer.

There is a difference between what ordinary folk believe about evolution and what is actually being taught in various areas of the country. This is why learning current updated evolutionary theory is so important for those who are interested in defending Catholicism. We need not be afraid of the scientific aspects. There is no real reason to attack science. It is important to know what exactly is involved when one talks “evolutionary theory”. And we must know and comprehend the Catholic position which in some cases is very different from Creationism.

21st century evolutionary theory can be viewed in two sections. The first section is the application of evolution to non-humans such as animals, plants, bacteria, and so on. What is troubling to Catholics is the theory’s second section which is the application of evolutionary theory to human nature.

Blessings,
granny

The search for truth needs Catholicism.
 
Yet, natural selection, survival of the fitness, going from ape to man was the early popular perception of evolution. Those famous drawings showing the sequence from a hunched over ape to a hunched over person ready for death are still around. Though currently, the hunched over person is sitting at his computer.

There is a difference between what ordinary folk believe about evolution and what is actually being taught in various areas of the country. This is why learning current updated evolutionary theory is so important for those who are interested in defending Catholicism. We need not be afraid of the scientific aspects. There is no real reason to attack science. It is important to know what exactly is involved when one talks “evolutionary theory”. And we must know and comprehend the Catholic position which in some cases is very different from Creationism.

21st century evolutionary theory can be viewed in two sections. The first section is the application of evolution to non-humans such as animals, plants, bacteria, and so on. What is troubling to Catholics is the theory’s second section which is the application of evolutionary theory to human nature.

Blessings,
granny

The search for truth needs Catholicism.
But why should that be troubling? That there of remnants of God’s handiwork in the evolution to man should not be surprising. (And let’s note, some variations of evolution theory hold that there may have been several kinds of humans alive at the same time - in the (relatively) not so distant past…)

I wonder, 100 years from now, if there will be a new human; part man, part machine, and if they will think of evolution in a whole new way - where we evolve ourselves?

Potentially scary thoughts - but thoughts that we haven’t even begun to deal with yet.

In any case - I don’t see a need for the twin creation stories to be taken literally. There are two stories, closely related, that rely on each other in many ways. They provide information that in a general way appear to be historically plausible. But they also have issues (where did Cain find his wife?)

That said, the stories become both more plausible and more understandable if they are taken as allegories.

For example:

It has been shown that complex organic molecules can be stored in clay “oil bubbles”. There is evidence that the early ocean (which was not yet salty since salt hadn’t run into the ocean to the degree it has today) had clay shores. “The research, published online this week in the journal Soft Matter, shows that clay vesicles provide an ideal container for the compartmentalization of complex organic molecules.”

What does the Bible say:

While some translations say that man came from dust, others say:

7 the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.

No one says how long this process took in our measurement of time. If God put complex carbon molecules into a clay bubble and let it replicate and evolve until the result was man, doesn’t this reasonably agree with this verse, when thinking in terms of a people who were technologically primitive. The most complex mathematics was basic arithmetic. The most complex tools were levers and cutting instruments. Not everyone had the use of wheels. They certainly had no context of geography, a spherical Earth in space - much less in relativistic space-time. How would YOU describe to them that God led/let man evolve from complex molecules?

We KNOW there is a “mitochondrial Eve” from whom currently living humans evolved. (People have two sets of genetics; one set, contained in mitochondria - the fuel burning engine of a cell, is contributed ONLY by the mother. Because of this, it is possible to tell that there was an original mother.) There was also a Y-chromosomal Adam - this chromosone is passed only by the father. So it is possible to tell that there is a male from whom all living people are likely descended.

However, this Eve, and this Adam did not live at the same time. Nor were they they ONLY man and only woman around. But, if we take the story as an allegory, this may not be a big issue.

Alternatively, while this Eve and Adam represent our common (ultimate) matrilineal and patrilineal ancestor, they don’t represent our most recent common ancestor. So, perhaps there is a MORE RECENT common ancestor (even as recent as 5,000 years ago) from whom all humans derive.

The fact that Adam and Eve are SET APART from any other “possible humans” (or near humans) is enough for the allegory to work. It doesn’t require being defended to the most minute detail.
 
But why should that be troubling?
This is what I see as troubling in post 293 – “What is troubling to Catholics is the theory’s second section which is the application of evolutionary theory to human nature.”
Please consider what human nature means to Catholicism.

When one reads how the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, describes human nature (CCC 355) the remnants of God’s handiwork in the evolution of man should not be surprising. There have been times when I have called that the “unity of creation”.

It used to be that Catholics would insist that even with an evolutionary influence regarding the material anatomy, God created the soul. Catholics need to wake up to what 21st century evolutionary biology and evolutionary anthropology and evolutionary psychology etc., are saying about the evolutionary soul.

Blessings,
granny

Our first parent Adam was the apple of God’s eye.
(example of reality and figurative language)
 
Since many of you are unable to participate charitably, this thread is now closed.
 
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