Creator and operator of the universe, what's wrong with this concept of God?

[KingCoil]

Title of thread: "Creator and operator of the universe, what’s wrong with this concept of God?"

This question is addressed to any person at all, but in particular to atheists.

KingCoil

 

[oldcelt]

No quite an atheist but my problem with that view is that believers have to come up with all types of explanations for the evil that exists and, IMHO, they just don’t cut it.

 

[Spencerian]

Title of thread: "Creator and operator of the universe, what’s wrong with this concept of God?"

This question is addressed to any person at all, but in particular to atheists.

KingCoil

The problem with this concept is that it depersonalizes God as a quasi-sentient entity that, like an endocrine system, merely manages a system’s flow and function.

I’m being overly simplistic. The concept also de-emphasizes the history of Christ, an historical being, not of myth, who had thousands of eyewitnesses and many followers, before and after His Resurrection.

One thing that Christianity has over many other religions is a grounded foundation of history, of real events, places and people. Of unexplained but substantiated witness to miracles. Of non-Christians that report of this man and his followers.

There should be a reason why existence came to be. A passive generation of something from nothing isn’t possible to do this. It takes a force of will to not only make something from nothing, to move what never moved before without requiring something to move you to make it happen.

The concept makes God an abstract. It may do better to say that God exists for the sake of argument and then offer proofs, such as a few scientific and philosophical points that require inertia to to conquered before the stars formed, life formed and the universe came to being. Something outside the universe must exist to make the universe. And something must create the various physical and natural laws that keep a sense of order in this realm, from gravity to magnetism to the speed of light.

 

[KingCoil]

No quite an atheist but my problem with that view is that believers have to come up with all types of explanations for the evil that exists and, IMHO, they just don’t cut it.

Of course evil does not count with God, but it counts with man, so let me hear from you what is your concept of evil, and tell me why it should compromise God as creator and operator of the universe.

Do you notice that you are in fact now into diverting from the issue?

That is what I have noticed all the time with atheists or persons who like to act the role of atheists, namely, to digress or evade the issue.

So, you want to implicate God in evil, but what or how does that at all compromise God, the concept of, as creator and operator of the universe?

Anyway, as we are talking about concepts, and that is for the longest time my concern, i.e. with concepts, tell me what is your concept of evil.

KingCoil

 

[valekhai]

Title of thread: "Creator and operator of the universe, what’s wrong with this concept of God?"

This question is addressed to any person at all, but in particular to atheists.

KingCoil

I see a few potential issues, depending on which way the question is approached:

-such a thing might not actually exist

-if such a thing does exist, it might not be personal, so the terms “creator” and “operator” are a bit on the anthropomorphic side

-if such a thing does exist but is not personal, the term “God” may not be an appropriate label for it

 

[tonyrey]

The Creator does not “operate” the universe because the laws of nature serve that purpose.

 

[tonyrey]

The problem with this concept is that it depersonalizes God as a quasi-sentient entity that, like an endocrine system, merely manages a system’s flow and function.

I’m being overly simplistic. The concept also de-emphasizes the history of Christ, an historical being, not of myth, who had thousands of eyewitnesses and many followers, before and after His Resurrection.

One thing that Christianity has over many other religions is a grounded foundation of history, of real events, places and people. Of unexplained but substantiated witness to miracles. Of non-Christians that report of this man and his followers.

There should be a reason why existence came to be. A passive generation of something from nothing isn’t possible to do this. It takes a force of will to not only make something from nothing, to move what never moved before without requiring something to move you to make it happen.

The concept makes God an abstract. It may do better to say that God exists for the sake of argument and then offer proofs, such as a few scientific and philosophical points that require inertia to to conquered before the stars formed, life formed and the universe came to being. Something outside the universe must exist to make the universe. And something must create the various physical and natural laws that keep a sense of order in this realm, from gravity to magnetism to the speed of light.

:clapping: Materialists are, of course, restricted to mechanistic explanations and are, like everyone else, no more than biological machines operating in an immense machine.

 

[captainrick]

The Creator does not “operate” the universe because the laws of nature serve that purpose.

I believe that the laws of nature apply consistently (gravity, momentum, etc.) because the creator “operates” the universe, including those laws.

 

[tonyrey]

I believe that the laws of nature apply consistently (gravity, momentum, etc.) because the creator “operates” the universe, including those laws.

Not in the sense of controlling them like a driver or pilot. Otherwise God would be directly responsible for every disaster.

 

[crochet_lady]

captainrick #8 – yes – God put those laws into motion Because He created and is in charge of the universe – our world – us.

So - there is Nothing wrong with the concept of God being the creator / operator of this universe. Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” And John 1:1-3 or so says the same thing.

God also created the angelic world. That which is invisible to our eyes, but greatly affects this world. He did Not create evil. But He DID give angels the freedom of choice. And He did create Lucifer to be the most powerful? And Lucifer, in his heart decided he wanted MORE. He wasn’t satisfied with his position given to him by God. So – he rebelled and was thrown out of heaven along with other angels who Also rebelled along with him. And THAT is why there is evil in This world. Because of Satans’ influence and that of his ‘helpers’ the demon world.

 

[fnr]

Title of thread: "Creator and operator of the universe, what’s wrong with this concept of God?"

Well, there’s an assumption in the term “operator of the universe” that God’s always there moving the gears. I could read it two different ways.

First, that God consciously controls everything in a manner akin to human will (which itself is problematic in anthropomorphizing God). That interpretation runs right into the problem of evil, and the need to produce a theophany that allows an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God to coexist with evil and/or suffering.

Second, the interpretation can be read as pantheistic, with the universe reflecting God and vice-versa.

I assume you mean neither of those two meanings. That being said, there are some fundamental issues that need to be laid out in understanding existence as we experience and God.

1. 
   *]For us, cause and effect must follow the laws of physics. We are aware of phenomenon that violate these constraints, such as quantum entanglement of particles, but we have no known way of making practical use of these phenomenon. God is not constrained by our physics.
   *]Our physics operates within a set of “boundary conditions” that dictate the boundaries of existence of our universe. For example, the strengths of the fundamental forces of the universe, or the ratio of matter and antimatter that survived the beginning of the universe. We cannot change the mass of an electron or the strength of gravity, and so our universe is constrained to reflect the relative influence of these fundamental forces in the unfolding history of the universe. God is not bound by these boundary conditions. In fact, a good many physicists believe in a “many worlds” hypothesis wherein all the boundary conditions of the universe are realized in a (nearly?) infinite array of different universes. While that’s grist for the mill for many atheists, who contend that as a result, there is nothing special about our universe, it also acknowledges that God is in fact not bound by the way our universe works.
   
   I would say that God creates the universe, meaning its boundary conditions and physics as a grace. In doing so, God imparted the universe with teleology, which is why humanity is the product of God’s will. In that regard, God’s actions may use contingent means (such as gravity and thermodynamics) to achieve the ends that God wills. God’s grace also allows for miracles to happen that are not subject to the boundary conditions and physics of our universe.
   
   In this understanding of the universe, the problem of evil is much more tractable. In particular, randomness at the beginning of the universe (e.g., the quantum fluctuations in the relative amounts of matter and antimatter that survived initial annihilation) is the action upon which later evolution of the universe depends. The random fluctuation found in the cosmic background radiation tells us that God acts through random processes. When paired with the physics that allow the formation of atoms and molecules, those random processes are forced by (name removed by moderator)ut energy (e.g., from the sun) to generate higher degrees of information (e.g., non-disordered arrangement of matter and energy flow). All the history of the universe up until the emergence of human consciousness followed this pattern. The many “natural evils” of the problem of evil are explainable in this manner: earthquakes are part of the same geophysical system that creates the Van Allen belts. Without the “natural evils” around us, there would be no life.

 

[oldcelt]

Of course evil does not count with God, but it counts with man, so let me hear from you what is your concept of evil, and tell me why it should compromise God as creator and operator of the universe.

Do you notice that you are in fact now into diverting from the issue?

That is what I have noticed all the time with atheists or persons who like to act the role of atheists, namely, to digress or evade the issue.

So, you want to implicate God in evil, but what or how does that at all compromise God, the concept of, as creator and operator of the universe?

Anyway, as we are talking about concepts, and that is for the longest time my concern, i.e. with concepts, tell me what is your concept of evil.

KingCoil

I wouldn’t have thought that my answer was lengthy enough to divert, digress, or evade. But, since you have changed the subject to evil, I’ll give you my concept briefly.

In the view of Christian religions, for example, they assign omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence to their deity. If this is the case then their god could be viewed as complicit with evils such as murder, war, greed, starvation, slavery, rape…and even in what I view as purely natural disasters, having foreknowledge, complete and absolute power and the ultimate surveillance system.

 

[KingCoil]

Thanks everyone for your contribution.

We or I care to deal with concepts in this thread.

And why deal with concepts and not say objects?

Because it is my concern to invite fellow humans in particular atheists to look for God in the universe, and for that purpose we have to work together to come to a commonly agreed on concept of God – otherwise how are we to look for Him in the universe if we do not have at all as we search together, an agreed on concept of God?

Now, the way I see it, the only thing that matters before everything and anything else with God in relation to man and the universe is that: He is in concept the creator and operator of the universe, that includes of course man.

So, I am glad that crochet lady in post #10 reminds us that in Gen. 1:1 God is described in the following way:

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

And I will add that in the Apostles’ Creed the first line is a declaration of the same thought from Christians:

I believe in God the father almighty creator of heaven and earth.

Can we all agree that the concept of God as creator and operator of the universe is of quintessential importance in the debate whether God exists or not?

For if God is not the creator and operator of the universe then there is no debate at all worth our attention about God

Say, you don’t or cannot accept that that is of the most quintessential importance with God in his relation to man and the universe: so what do you still want to debate about in regard to the concept of God that is not resting on the as I said of the most quintessential importance, resting on His being creator and operator of the universe and man?

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

I wouldn’t have thought that my answer was lengthy enough to divert, digress, or evade. But, since you have changed the subject to evil, I’ll give you my concept briefly.

In the view of Christian religions, for example, they assign omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence to their deity. If this is the case then their god could be viewed as complicit with evils such as murder, war, greed, starvation, slavery, rape…and even in what I view as purely natural disasters, having foreknowledge, complete and absolute power and the ultimate surveillance system.

Well, oldcelt, you did not react to my previous response to you on the particular point about what counts for evil with God and with man, and what do you have for a concept of evil which counts for man.

Originally Posted by oldcelt
No quite an atheist but my problem with that view is that believers have to come up with all types of explanations for the evil that exists and, IMHO, they just don’t cut it.

Now, of course you are saying in effect that the original cause is the cause of everything that comes afterwards, so God being the original cause of the universe is complicit in all the evils which count with man to be evils, like murder and rape done by man.

That is a great discovery for a defense before God when we face God, that He is the agent to be blamed for evils like murder and rape.

As you also tell us that God is omniscient, so I will say that God can acquit Himself perfectly when you debate Him about His complicity in, say, your having committed murder and rape in your lifetime.

But you are not omniscient; so as you still live, what might be as you are intelligent be your logical and wise as in wisdom resolution about being sorry for murder and rape if you did commit such acts, or do not commit murder and rape at all.

I have read that with Jewish theologians they tell us that God also creates evil, but I am sure they will tell us that for God what we count to be evil is not evil with Him.

As for the existence of free will in man and God being the cause of whatever evil man does from his free choice, owing to God being the original cause of everything that is man and what man does: I confess for myself that is a mystery, I mean how God is not complicit at all because God is all just.

First things first: God is creator and operator of the universe, God is almighty, all-knowing, all good, all just; man is a free agent, so act freely as to not have to resort to the illogic of trying to corner God in His almightiness, you are putting yourself instead in the corner you have laid out for God.

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

Originally Posted by KingCoil
Title of thread: “Creator and operator of the universe, what’s wrong with this concept of God?”

Well, I believe the author of Gen.1:1, “In the beginning God created heaven and earth,” will not agree with you about such a description of God depersonalizes God.

And I am sure that the authors of the Apostles’ Creed in their first verse of the creed, “I believe in God the father almighty, creator of heave and earth,” will not agree with you that it “de-emphasizes the history of Christ.”

In fact to my thinking if God is not creator and operator of the universe and Jesus claims to be the Son of God, then we have every reason not to count Him, Jesus, to be any different from Gautama or Confucius.

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

Originally Posted by KingCoil
Title of thread: “Creator and operator of the universe, what’s wrong with this concept of God?”

Let’s take the first observation from you: “-such a thing might not actually exist.”

Assuming that you find nothing wrong with the concept itself of creator and operator of the universe, shall we go forth in the universe and look for such a being as the creator and operator of the universe.

The closest thing and most convenient thing that we can approach to look for the creator and operator of the universe is you and I, is that acceptable to you?

Not to be funny, let’s start with our nose, is that indicative of the creator and operator of the universe for a starter?

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

The Creator does not “operate” the universe because the laws of nature serve that purpose.

Well, then the operator of the laws of nature is both the creator and the operator in effect of the universe.

Or you are of the idea that there are already laws of nature and even nature itself that are not dependent on the creator and operator of the universe?

There are very wise thinkers who tell us that God is also nature’s God.

Which God is that? The God described in Gen. 1:1 as having “In the beginning [He] God created heaven and earth.”

As sure as these wise men read Genesis and the rest of the Bible.

KingCoil

 

[tonyrey]

I wouldn’t have thought that my answer was lengthy enough to divert, digress, or evade. But, since you have changed the subject to evil, I’ll give you my concept briefly.

In the view of Christian religions, for example, they assign omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence to their deity. If this is the case then their god could be viewed as complicit with evils such as murder, war, greed, starvation, slavery, rape…and even in what I view as purely natural disasters, having foreknowledge, complete and absolute power and the ultimate surveillance system.

Simplistic in the extreme! And a wonderful way of offloading responsibility for all the crimes one cares to commit. After all, we are not the slightest bit responsible for what we think or do, are we? An exquisite carte blanche for rapists, sadists, paedophiles and serial killers…

 

[KingCoil]

Originally Posted by captainrick
I believe that the laws of nature apply consistently (gravity, momentum, etc.) because the creator “operates” the universe, including those laws.

What is disaster for man is not disaster for God, it is all in a day’s work for God in His continuous operation of the universe.

You cannot imagine that there is such an entity so huge as to be running the universe of galaxies, and so subtle as to be simultaneously running the universe of sub-atomic particles?

KingCoil

 

[tonyrey]

Well, then the operator of the laws of nature is both the creator and the operator in effect of the universe.

Or you are of the idea that there are already laws of nature and even nature itself that are not dependent on the creator and operator of the universe?

There are very wise thinkers who tell us that God is also nature’s God.

Which God is that? The God described in Gen. 1:1 as having “In the beginning [He] God created heaven and earth.”

As sure as these wise men read Genesis and the rest of the Bible.

KingCoil

You conveniently ignore or even reject the distinction between ultimate and direct responsibility. I can see why a Godless universe appeals to you! It lets you off a very uncomfortable hook…