Creator and operator of the universe, what's wrong with this concept of God?

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KingCoil said:
What is disaster for man is not disaster for God, it is all in a day’s work for God in His continuous operation of the universe.

You cannot imagine that there is such an entity so huge as to be running the universe of galaxies, and so subtle as to be simultaneously running the universe of sub-atomic particles?

KingCoil
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You obviously share Schopenhauer’s view that it would be better if life had never existed on this planet. Never mind. You’re not obliged to stay alive, are you? 😉
 
KingCoil said:
Well, oldcelt, you did not react to my previous response to you on the particular point about what counts for evil with God and with man, and what do you have for a concept of evil which counts for man.

Now, of course you are saying in effect that the original cause is the cause of everything that comes afterwards, so God being the original cause of the universe is complicit in all the evils which count with man to be evils, like murder and rape done by man.

That is a great discovery for a defense before God when we face God, that He is the agent to be blamed for evils like murder and rape.

As you also tell us that God is omniscient, so I will say that God can acquit Himself perfectly when you debate Him about His complicity in, say, your having committed murder and rape in your lifetime.

But you are not omniscient; so as you still live, what might be as you are intelligent be your logical and wise as in wisdom resolution about being sorry for murder and rape if you did commit such acts, or do not commit murder and rape at all.

I have read that with Jewish theologians they tell us that God also creates evil, but I am sure they will tell us that for God what we count to be evil is not evil with Him.

As for the existence of free will in man and God being the cause of whatever evil man does from his free choice, owing to God being the original cause of everything that is man and what man does: I confess for myself that is a mystery, I mean how God is not complicit at all because God is all just.

First things first: God is creator and operator of the universe, God is almighty, all-knowing, all good, all just; man is a free agent, so act freely as to not have to resort to the illogic of trying to corner God in His almightiness, you are putting yourself instead in the corner you have laid out for God.

KingCoil
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I’m glad you have it all figured out. For my part, I think the universe in infinitely more complex. I don’t believe that god…whatever that is…has any control over the day to day workings of man. I said that the Christian god would have to given all his powers.

God may very well be a natural force that only set the universe in motion. Of course, I can’t prove that anymore than anyone else can prove their view of “God.”
 
oldcelt said:
I’m glad you have it all figured out. For my part, I think the universe in infinitely more complex. I don’t believe that god…whatever that is…has any control over the day to day workings of man. I said that the Christian god would have to given all his powers.

God may very well be a natural force that only set the universe in motion. Of course, I can’t prove that anymore than anyone else can prove their view of “God.”
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A powerless God is not worth having! In fact the notion doesn’t make sense.
 
fnr said:
Originally Posted by KingCoil
Title of thread: “Creator and operator of the universe, what’s wrong with this concept of God?”
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The way I observe the ideas of atheist physical cosmologists, they shift from concepts to objects, and objects to concepts, without keeping in mind when they are talking in one realm and when in the other.

For example, multiple universes whatever, that is all purely in the realm of concepts, but they already act presumptuously and readers take them seriously as to already talk about our universe is one of the infinite number of universes of the multiverse whatever, and every one universe has its own laws of physics * they have not yet said, also laws of metaphysics – but they could come to that as soon as they accept the reality of metaphysics ]*, and likewise there is no way how one universe can ever get in contact with another (very convenient).

Wherefore, God is not needed.

As they already postulate that every so-called parallel universe in the infinity of the number of universes are each one not ever in contact with any of the others, why at all bother with talking about them, even just in concepts, unless they preface their writings with the disclaimer that it is all wild imagination not to be interpolated in any way into the reality of humans in actual contact with our world/universe, and getting to know our world/universe by our experience of it and our inference therefrom.

And they should take into account that we and they in particular only know less than 5% of our world/universe.

Anyway, we can take a lesson from atheists, that we should not be so arrogant about our place in the universe (our universe), let us just be keen to look for God only in our universe, and leave them to their cloud of unknowing in the multiverse of parallel universes of infinite number, of which not one is in contact with another, and each has its own laws of physics.

KingCoil
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KingCoil said:
…Anyway, we can take a lesson from atheists, that we should not be so arrogant about our place in the universe (our universe), let us just be keen to look for God only in our universe, and leave them to their cloud of unknowing in the multiverse of parallel universes of infinite number, of which not one is in contact with another, and each has its own laws of physics.
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Is it arrogant to acknowledge the value of persons with the power of reason, moral awareness, social institutions, scientific achievements and artistic masterpieces in a universe which would otherwise serve no higher purpose than providing extremely rare opportunities for biological existence?

The very warning that we should not be arrogant is arrogant because it implies privileged insight into our insignificance!
 
Thanks, tonyrey and oldcelt, for your thoughts.

My point is that we want to concur on the concept of God as creator and operator of the universe.

Once we get in sync then we will go forth in the universe and look for God, using as a guide that He is conceived by us to be the creator and operator of the universe.

So, what is wrong with the concept propounded by yours truly?

Just first present only one thing (i.e. one thing at a time) that is wrong, expound on it concisely, precisely, and clearly.

Then we will think together about your idea on what is wrong with the concept of God as creator and operator of the universe, and seek to work out a consensus on finally a concept of God accepted by us three, and go forth to locate God in the universe.

Up to the present I must confess that I am seemingly getting mixed signals from you.

KingCoil
 
KingCoil said:
Thanks, tonyrey and oldcelt, for your thoughts.

My point is that we want to concur on the concept of God as creator and operator of the universe.

Once we get in sync then we will go forth in the universe and look for God, using as a guide that He is conceived by us to be the creator and operator of the universe.

So, what is wrong with the concept propounded by yours truly?

Just first present only one thing (i.e. one thing at a time) that is wrong, expound on it concisely, precisely, and clearly.

Then we will think together about your idea on what is wrong with the concept of God as creator and operator of the universe, and seek to work out a consensus on finally a concept of God accepted by us three, and go forth to locate God in the universe.

Up to the present I must confess that I am seemingly getting mixed signals from you.

KingCoil
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It depends on what you mean by “operator”. We are also operators in the sense that we are more than machines. To describe the Creator as “the Operator of operators” seems to eliminate our free will and responsibility.
 
tonyrey said:
It depends on what you mean by “operator”. We are also operators in the sense that we are more than machines. To describe the Creator as “the Operator of operators” seems to eliminate our free will and responsibility.
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“…seems to eliminate our free will and responsibility.”

See? You know better from your better grasp of logic and reality.

It only seems to you, but as you are logical and you have your feet planted on the ground of divine metaphysics – and it is the same metaphysics as ours, only ours is not as deep and as comprehensive as divine metaphysics…

You have to accept that notwithstanding that God is creator and operator in all the senses of creator and operator in the most metaphysically high level of creation and operation, there is free will and there is responsibility on the part of humans.

You have got to get your premises and priorities correct, namely, God created us as free agents and we for being free agents are responsible for our choices.

This thread is not into reconciling God’s sovereignty from first cause as creator and operator of everything in man and in the universe, with man’s free will and responsibility.

It is into getting everyone in particular atheists to get acquainted with the concept of God as creator and operator, and get to accept the invitation to search for God in the universe, for the entity in the universe that corresponds to the concept of creator and operator.

Do you see that atheists are not coming forth to react to this thread?

And it is because they realize that once they look for God with the information of the concept of God as creator and operator of the universe, they cannot but encounter God in the universe.

That is why they atheists are not daring to participate in this thread.

Dear tonyrey, coming back to your seemingly angst that as operator God would be responsible for man’s evil deeds, and therefore man is ‘pre-acquitted’ and can go forth and do all the evil deeds that he wants and cares to do, have you ever thought of going to the official teachings of the Church, namely the Catholic Church, namely the Roman Catholic Church, namely, the Vatican Roman Catholic Church, and find out what is the official reconciliation of God’s role as creator and operator of man and the universe, and man’s free will?

That should be a good topic to take up in a thread.

And the Vatican Roman Catholic Church is the only religious society with the most voluminous documents ever in the history of mankind on everything that has to do with man and how man is going to get to the Kingdom of God, and of course how God is helping man to get there, because God is the creator and operator of man and the universe, and He creates man as a free agent, in this respect, yes, in the image of God Himself.

Certainly there must be some official reconciliation from the Church on your angst.

Back to atheists, addressing atheists, please get informed on God the concept of, namely, as creator and operator of the universe, and dare to look for Him in that concept, go into the universe and search for Him, and you will find Him.

Unless of course, you just want to evade the issue of that the debate on God exists or not exists must be settled by looking for God in the universe.

And that is what you atheists will not dare do, you just want to talk and talk and talk but in the direction of ever always all the time into evasion.

KingCoil
 
tonyrey said:
Originally Posted by oldcelt
It’s the same you have for yours…personal belief.
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I will just remind everyone that for Catholics, the Church teaches that man can come and does come to the knowledge (as distinct from the belief) that God exists as creator and operator of the universe, from reasoning on the part of man, reasoning sincerely and intelligently.

For there is reasoning that is not sincere and not intelligent, but all in evasion of the issue and all in feigned un-intelligence.

KingCoil
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KingCoil said:
Title of thread: "Creator and operator of the universe, what’s wrong with this concept of God?"

This question is addressed to any person at all, but in particular to atheists.

KingCoil
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In order to answer you I first need to know what your definition of “Creator and/or Opertor” is.

Do you actually mean God is like a Puppet master pulling all the strings of his already created Universe. I’m mean really you should try to explain this a bit first so we are all talking the same language.

Peace!👍
 
KingCoil said:
“…seems to eliminate our free will and responsibility.”

See? You know better from your better grasp of logic and reality.

It only seems to you, but as you are logical and you have your feet planted on the ground of divine metaphysics – and it is the same metaphysics as ours, only ours is not as deep and as comprehensive as divine metaphysics…

You have to accept that notwithstanding that God is creator and operator in all the senses of creator and operator in the most metaphysically high level of creation and operation, there is free will and there is responsibility on the part of humans.

You have got to get your premises and priorities correct, namely, God created us as free agents and we for being free agents are responsible for our choices.

This thread is not into reconciling God’s sovereignty from first cause as creator and operator of everything in man and in the universe, with man’s free will and responsibility.

It is into getting everyone in particular atheists to get acquainted with the concept of God as creator and operator, and get to accept the invitation to search for God in the universe, for the entity in the universe that corresponds to the concept of creator and operator.

Do you see that atheists are not coming forth to react to this thread?

And it is because they realize that once they look for God with the information of the concept of God as creator and operator of the universe, they cannot but encounter God in the universe.

That is why they atheists are not daring to participate in this thread.

Dear tonyrey, coming back to your seemingly angst that as operator God would be responsible for man’s evil deeds, and therefore man is ‘pre-acquitted’ and can go forth and do all the evil deeds that he wants and cares to do, have you ever thought of going to the official teachings of the Church, namely the Catholic Church, namely the Roman Catholic Church, namely, the Vatican Roman Catholic Church, and find out what is the official reconciliation of God’s role as creator and operator of man and the universe, and man’s free will?

That should be a good topic to take up in a thread.
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Dear KingCoil, I appreciate your good intentions but I don’t think there is any reference to God as the “operator of the universe” in any of the Catholic Church’s documents. The term indicates direct control of a machine whereas the Creator allows the universe to “run under its own steam” and persons to choose how and where to run!

I cannot speak for atheists but they may not have noticed this thread or be interested in concepts of God.
 
KingCoil said:
I will just remind everyone that for Catholics, the Church teaches that man can come and does come to the knowledge (as distinct from the belief) that God exists as creator and operator of the universe, from reasoning on the part of man, reasoning sincerely and intelligently.

For there is reasoning that is not sincere and not intelligent, but all in evasion of the issue and all in feigned un-intelligence.

KingCoil
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What is your view and how would you support it?
 
KingCoil said:
“…seems to eliminate our free will and responsibility.”

See? You know better from your better grasp of logic and reality.

It only seems to you, but as you are logical and you have your feet planted on the ground of divine metaphysics – and it is the same metaphysics as ours, only ours is not as deep and as comprehensive as divine metaphysics…

You have to accept that notwithstanding that God is creator and operator in all the senses of creator and operator in the most metaphysically high level of creation and operation, there is free will and there is responsibility on the part of humans.

You have got to get your premises and priorities correct, namely, God created us as free agents and we for being free agents are responsible for our choices.

This thread is not into reconciling God’s sovereignty from first cause as creator and operator of everything in man and in the universe, with man’s free will and responsibility.

It is into getting everyone in particular atheists to get acquainted with the concept of God as creator and operator, and get to accept the invitation to search for God in the universe, for the entity in the universe that corresponds to the concept of creator and operator.

Do you see that atheists are not coming forth to react to this thread?

And it is because they realize that once they look for God with the information of the concept of God as creator and operator of the universe, they cannot but encounter God in the universe.

That is why they atheists are not daring to participate in this thread.

Dear tonyrey, coming back to your seemingly angst that as operator God would be responsible for man’s evil deeds, and therefore man is ‘pre-acquitted’ and can go forth and do all the evil deeds that he wants and cares to do, have you ever thought of going to the official teachings of the Church, namely the Catholic Church, namely the Roman Catholic Church, namely, the Vatican Roman Catholic Church, and find out what is the official reconciliation of God’s role as creator and operator of man and the universe, and man’s free will?

That should be a good topic to take up in a thread.

And the Vatican Roman Catholic Church is the only religious society with the most voluminous documents ever in the history of mankind on everything that has to do with man and how man is going to get to the Kingdom of God, and of course how God is helping man to get there, because God is the creator and operator of man and the universe, and He creates man as a free agent, in this respect, yes, in the image of God Himself.

Certainly there must be some official reconciliation from the Church on your angst.

Back to atheists, addressing atheists, please get informed on God the concept of, namely, as creator and operator of the universe, and dare to look for Him in that concept, go into the universe and search for Him, and you will find Him.

**Unless of course, you just want to evade the issue of that the debate on God exists or not exists must be settled by looking for God in the universe.

And that is what you atheists will not dare do, you just want to talk and talk and talk but in the direction of ever always all the time into evasion.**

KingCoil
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I have to say that virtually tour entire post is hokum…and uses the old ploy that intelligent people will obviously reach your conclusions. My change occurred while in the process of exploring the Catholic faith in greater detail than I had in my better than 40 years as a Catholic.
It took several years, but I was regrettably forced to conclude that the Christian God most likely did not exist It was not a pleasant time, but it has given me peace in that area of my life.
Though I am not an atheist, I have chosen to participate very little because there is very little to say. Why repeat points again and again? I certainly have better things to do with my chunks of linear time.

John
 
oldcelt said:
I have to say that virtually tour entire post is hokum…and uses the old ploy that intelligent people will obviously reach your conclusions. My change occurred while in the process of exploring the Catholic faith in greater detail than I had in my better than 40 years as a Catholic.
It took several years, but I was regrettably forced to conclude that the Christian God most likely did not exist It was not a pleasant time, but it has given me peace in that area of my life.
Though I am not an atheist, I have chosen to participate very little because there is very little to say. Why repeat points again and again? I certainly have better things to do with my chunks of linear time.

John
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How do you measure “better”? 🙂
 
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