Creator and operator of the universe, what's wrong with this concept of God?

[oldcelt]

Hey old celt. Why do atheists or non believers in God as creator say that “because there is evil, there is no God?”

According to atheists, we cannot put God where we do not have the answers, yes? Because we don’t know why the big bang happened or what was before it doesn’t imply there is a God. Correct?

So, why as an atheist do you assume that because there is evil this presupposes there is no God? I’ve have this conversation before so I think I know the answer but at the basic level of this argument you are presupposing that your idea of what makes sense has to be that way. e.g. God is omniscient, God knows everything, He allows evil to exist, He is all powerful but does nothing about this evil and suffering, so he must be a sadist. Is that a fair enough formula? If so, the argument presupposes that because God allows suffering he is a sadist therefore there must be no God.

What if God has a reason for this and the reason is beyond our comprehension? Just as science teaches us, we shouldn’t put our assumptions in places in places it doesn’t belong just because there does not seem to be a qualified reason.

Science, by its nature, is impersonal, as it should be. On the other hand, we are told that the God of Abraham is a loving, caring father…but his history doesn’t support that if He is truly omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.It is no great reach doe me to say that a loving God would never have permitted a Newtown.
So, in my mind, there are three possibilities: 1. There is no god. 2. There is a God but he is not omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. 3. God is an “Enemy God.”

I, as a deist, waver between 1 and 2.

A cursory study of history is really all that is needed to debunk the God that most people claim to believe in. Even my mother, a lifelong Catholic who raised me as such told me in her later years that she no longer believed what she had been taught. When I asked her why she continued to attend Mass her answer was, “Habit.”

 

[Contarini]

Title of thread: "Creator and operator of the universe, what’s wrong with this concept of God?"

This question is addressed to any person at all, but in particular to atheists.

KingCoil

The word “operator” implies that the universe is a thing that exists over against God, in some sense independently of Him. Rather, everything exists by participation in God.

Nothing wrong with “Creator,” as long as we have a fully orthodox understanding of creation (Aquinas is particularly good on this, in my opinion).

 

[Aloysium]

Science, by its nature, is impersonal, as it should be. On the other hand, we are told that the God of Abraham is a loving, caring father…but his history doesn’t support that if He is truly omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.It is no great reach doe me to say that a loving God would never have permitted a Newtown.
So, in my mind, there are three possibilities: 1. There is no god. 2. There is a God but he is not omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. 3. God is an “Enemy God.”

I, as a deist, waver between 1 and 2.

A cursory study of history is really all that is needed to debunk the God that most people claim to believe in. Even my mother, a lifelong Catholic who raised me as such told me in her later years that she no longer believed what she had been taught. When I asked her why she continued to attend Mass her answer was, “Habit.”

I don’t actually believe; as arrogant and/or deluded as it may sound to you, I can honestly say I know.
Your debunking is merely a reinforcing of the cognitive bars on the cage that has locked up your soul.

 

[oldcelt]

That’s not what Catholics believe in that we don’t believe that we have to read the bible and take the creation story literally… is that what you are referring to. The bible is only a way for God to communicate with us so that we can understand how to be better people. It is not a scientific document. I know I jumped in here and may have missed earlier discussions, so forgive me if that is the case. I believe in God. I also believe that if we observe with our eyes that the world is 450 billion years old and based on something like radio isotope testing then our previous assumptions (if these were in fact assumptions, not saying they are) that the bible tells us literally the world was created in seven days are obviously misinterpreted. Our assumptions and misinterpretations are not God’s fault.

I know that Catholics do not take much of the OT literally…thankfully. But, at least when I was practicing, they do accept the notion of an all-knowing, all-powerful and all-present deity. When we consider the fact that the bible was assembled by man during the infancy of a new religion, one could reach the conclusion that it, and many of the writings since were meant for the control of man by man.
You acceptance of good science is encouraging for me. Of course, if you are wrong about the other issues your only punishment will be silence upon your death. Supposedly, my misinterpretations would carry a much heftier punishment from the God who created me knowing that this would happen. He should have done a better job planning for the analytical minds that he created. There are too many inconsistencies in the story.

 

[oldcelt]

I don’t actually believe; as arrogant and/or deluded as it may sound to you, I can honestly say I know.
Your debunking is merely a reinforcing of the cognitive bars on the cage that has locked up your soul.

I’ve been told that for many years as I challenged things. The campus nurse in college was and is a devout Catholic and a very dear friend. She has often chastened me for my refusal to accept what I view as a somewhat inconsistent story.

If my soul, spirit…whatever you care to call it, is in a cage, I feel awfully free. My health is deteriorating rapidly, and I still find myself at peace.

Who knows?

 

[kingston1]

we are told that the God of Abraham is a loving, caring father…but his history doesn’t support that if He is truly omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.It is no great reach doe me to say that a loving God would never have permitted a Newtown.

I hear what you are saying…

If a father loves his children and says to them “don’t kill or murder innocents” but I also want you to have free will because I love you and you are not a robot then couldn’t we conceive He does love while not willing to control the outcome of events?

As a scientist, you know everything we see, everything we know is real here in our plane of existence is doomed to die out eventually. However, God claims to that life is eternal. Could you not also not conceive that God is willing to allow suffering now but that our suffering may not carry on with us beyond this existence? Meaning if all is terminal and there is no God, then suffering is moot. However, if there were a loving God who also allowed us to exist in a temporal plane then He also understands the rules of our temporal existence and is not concerned about our suffering now for reasons beyond our comprehension? Say, maybe there is a reason for suffering as there is a reason for pain in any sort of training event.

 

[kingston1]

I’ve been told that for many years as I challenged things. The campus nurse in college was and is a devout Catholic and a very dear friend. She has often chastened me for my refusal to accept what I view as a somewhat inconsistent story.

If my soul, spirit…whatever you care to call it, is in a cage, I feel awfully free. My health is deteriorating rapidly, and I still find myself at peace.

Who knows?

Peace brother Old Celt! I heard one of the two british atheist that are all the rage put it to us like this: “How can I believe something I am simply not convinced? And if I do not believe something I am not convinced how can I go to hell for simply not believing when there is no evidence I have seen that makes me believe…” I would agree with him and by extension you as well, you simply do not have whatever it is that makes one believe, whatever “that” is. You don’t have the evidence necessary. No problem here on my end. I just wonder if on the flip side of this equation you and other atheists may project upon God your assumptions which He is under no obligation to follow.

Whatever the case may be, I still even as a Catholic and a believer wonder why we were created at all if there is a God? This is what Job wondered. Why all the suffering? Why did God create me just so I may have to go to hell if I “fail”? Seems a bit heavy handed, yes? However, then I thought what if this were only a test or preparation of some sort? No different from how we would train in the military. Pain is necessary to learn the lessons needed to learn. Without pain, there is no growth. And by extension a training op is a training op, not True Reality. We certainly seem to be progressing as a people in the same manner as a babe to adulthood over the whole of our recorded time. If we don’t dwell on our lowest common denominator then we see that our understanding of both religion and science is greater today than ever before and we seem to be maturing in that sense if we would just relax and not be so active in over thinking things.

 

[Aloysium]

I’ve been told that for many years as I challenged things. The campus nurse in college was and is a devout Catholic and a very dear friend. She has often chastened me for my refusal to accept what I view as a somewhat inconsistent story.

If my soul, spirit…whatever you care to call it, is in a cage, I feel awfully free. My health is deteriorating rapidly, and I still find myself at peace.

Who knows?

I apologize for any lack of charity on my part. It is difficult to communicate through this sort of medium. I am praying that your journey remain peaceful and that you attain the outcome you are hoping for, and more.

 

[oldcelt]

I apologize for any lack of charity on my part. It is difficult to communicate through this sort of medium. I am praying that your journey remain peaceful and that you attain the outcome you are hoping for, and more.

I detected no lack of charity on your part, and I thank you for your concern

I have been asked many times why I am here and other related boards. The simple answer: I could be wrong.

Sleep well.

 

[oldcelt]

Peace brother Old Celt! I heard one of the two british atheist that are all the rage put it to us like this: “How can I believe something I am simply not convinced? And if I do not believe something I am not convinced how can I go to hell for simply not believing when there is no evidence I have seen that makes me believe…” I would agree with him and by extension you as well, you simply do not have whatever it is that makes one believe, whatever “that” is. You don’t have the evidence necessary. No problem here on my end. I just wonder if on the flip side of this equation you and other atheists may project upon God your assumptions which He is under no obligation to follow.

Whatever the case may be, I still even as a Catholic and a believer wonder why we were created at all if there is a God? This is what Job wondered. Why all the suffering? Why did God create me just so I may have to go to hell if I “fail”? Seems a bit heavy handed, yes? However, then I thought what if this were only a test or preparation of some sort? No different from how we would train in the military. Pain is necessary to learn the lessons needed to learn. Without pain, there is no growth. And by extension a training op is a training op, not True Reality. We certainly seem to be progressing as a people in the same manner as a babe to adulthood over the whole of our recorded time. If we don’t dwell on our lowest common denominator then we see that our understanding of both religion and science is greater today than ever before and we seem to be maturing in that sense if we would just relax and not be so active in over thinking things.

Thank you for the good discussion. Regarding the pain notion I can recall everyone around me talking about “redemptive suffering” when a family member was dying. I can recall, I was quite young, thinking that God must have been really angry at him.

I offer an idea and then I have to leave for a bit. If God’s actions are so in conflict with what we are taught, doesn’t one or the other or both have to be wrong? If a simple human mind like my own can see the contradictions, doesn’t God have a public relations problem?

 

[kingston1]

Thank you for the good discussion. Regarding the pain notion I can recall everyone around me talking about “redemptive suffering” when a family member was dying. I can recall, I was quite young, thinking that God must have been really angry at him.

I offer an idea and then I have to leave for a bit. If God’s actions are so in conflict with what we are taught, doesn’t one or the other or both have to be wrong? If a simple human mind like my own can see the contradictions, doesn’t God have a public relations problem?

Yes, I would agree one or the other seems would have to be wrong. If I were to choose which I would think it is our understanding of what we think we are taught and what we think we know and by extension what we then project back onto God as the problem.

This opens up the question I am sure you have had as well - why doesn’t God simply tell us more plainly, more often that He is real? I know the catholic comeback would be that He did reveal Himself to us pretty plainly in the form of Jesus.

He revealed Himself to the Israelites by speaking the 10 commandments and the prophets. When God spoke to the Israelites, they trembled in fear and begged Moses to ask God not to speak again. While Moses went to hear from God, they immediately turned their back on the God they just heard by making an idol. (sidenote: I am not trying to convince anyone here who is an atheist that God is real by using the bible but trying to show a pattern of how God tells us something and then we become blind almost immediately). This answers us or illustrates that even if God told us plainly His exact revelation we would be too immature to understand as a child would not understand us if we said holding a gun is ok so long as you don’t shoot anyone. The reason we deceive or lie in a sense to our children is they are not ready to hear the full truth. So, we tell them do not touch that gun or you will die! Therefore, a smart child who knows he won’t die just because he touches a gun would say: there is something wrong with either your veracity or what I am being told which in fact is the case, but the parent nonetheless tells them the simple thing: do not touch the gun or you will die because children are ignorant of the bigger picture. So, my basic theory is we are as to God as a young child is to us, unable to pierce Truth because we don’t understand and cant contextualize the bigger picture. God certainly isn’t telling us everything He knows only what we need to know. Chill out, go to mass, trust, obey (in the good sense of the word), and be patient. When you get a bit older I’ll not only let you hold the gun but shoot it too!

I see a parallel in what we are taught about the Israelites who were delivered from the Pharaoh but immediately started grumbling about their lot in life in the desert and were made to eat manna and our being delivered by Jesus but our immediate grumbling in our spiritual desert and we are made to eat Eucharist. It’s a preparation of our minds because we cannot grasp something if told plainly, we have to be shown. The Israelites eventually saw the promised land. We too will eventually see Jesus who will come again in Glory!

Apologies if off topic of original OP intent, but I was on a roll there and didn’t want to stop.

 

[ProdigalSun]

Do I get your correctly that you don’t find anything wrong with the concept of God as creator of the universe?

In which case, will you, say, if you are an atheist, accept my invitation for us two to search for God as per the concept of God as creator of the universe, in the universe itself; and I propose that we start the search in that part of the universe that is the most accessible to us and therefore most convenient for us to do our search for God existing in the universe?

What part of the universe is that?

What about that part of the universe that is we ourselves, you and I?

Do you understand my invitation?

I almost forgot to ask you, do you now know what I mean by the word operator used in my concept of God as the creator and operator of the universe?

KingCoil

Yes, of course I believe in a creator of the Universe. Our Hevenaly Father created everything. you , me, and the fish in the sea!

No I’m not Atheist - I’m CATHOLIC.

Nor do I accept your invitaion to explore the concept of how you have made God in your image. I have already accepted an invitation from Christ through his Church to learn about and adore our most Divine creator. An understanding that has been grappled with for 2000 years by the worlds most eminent scholars and theologians. I believe you would have me forego all the ground work that has been layed by OUR church to settle on the meager morsel of what you’re selling.

I do reject your idea of “Operator” as presented by you because all you have really lead me to understand of your belief is that of a man who sits in front of a machine playing at being God. ( I’m picturing bruce as he goes from email to post-its…LOL) Please if this is your idea of operator it is an Infantile notion of how Our most true and loivng God operates.

Peace to you and yours throughout the Christmas Season:thumbsup:

 

[crochet_lady]

oldcelt #58 - - wanted to add this comment – you’ve stated that you Are an evolutionist – yet you don’t rule out the possibility of there being a ‘god figure’ being involved in the ‘process’ somewhere. So – what ‘god figure’ Would you find acceptable? and based on What?

The ‘Christian’ God has given us all kinds of information about Himself , etc. in His Word to mankind. Apparently there’s too much Bad stuff happening in this world – so instead of blaming God for it – you simply don’t accept His existence. Do you accept the concept that Satan Is also in this world causing people to act in terrible ways?

But do you accept the existence of Nero and Napoleon in world history? Based on what? History books that people have written? Because none of us alive Now have any evidence of them except through history books.

You’ve stated that you’re an evolutionist – meaning that man developed over the span of millions of years --that people are simply an extention of the animal world. And yes, I made a distinction between the two. Because it’s obvious in the world that there Is a distinction between People and Animals.

Actually – aside from the Fact of this world’s existing and we’re part of it – there’s no reason For this world TO exist. People have come up with all sorts of explanations For all this to Be here. And Lots of us find that God’s creation makes most sense.

 

[oldcelt]

oldcelt #58 - - wanted to add this comment – you’ve stated that you Are an evolutionist – yet you don’t rule out the possibility of there being a ‘god figure’ being involved in the ‘process’ somewhere. So – what ‘god figure’ Would you find acceptable? and based on What?

The ‘Christian’ God has given us all kinds of information about Himself , etc. in His Word to mankind. Apparently there’s too much Bad stuff happening in this world – so instead of blaming God for it – you simply don’t accept His existence. Do you accept the concept that Satan Is also in this world causing people to act in terrible ways?

But do you accept the existence of Nero and Napoleon in world history? Based on what? History books that people have written? Because none of us alive Now have any evidence of them except through history books.

You’ve stated that you’re an evolutionist – meaning that man developed over the span of millions of years --that people are simply an extention of the animal world. And yes, I made a distinction between the two. Because it’s obvious in the world that there Is a distinction between People and Animals.

Actually – aside from the Fact of this world’s existing and we’re part of it – there’s no reason For this world TO exist. People have come up with all sorts of explanations For all this to Be here. And Lots of us find that God’s creation makes most sense.

My accepting the possibility of a god is that something set the universe in motion. Science is leaning toward the Big Bang, but there are numerous other theories. Religion brings in God in one way or another…I think it is Buddhism (could be wrong) that I would be closest to, with God stirring the new universe with his finger.

I don’t accept either the Christian God ( or any religion for that matter) or Satan. But, if they did exist Satan would exist because God created him with complete foreknowledge.

I accept the figures you mention, and I’ll add the man Jesus, because there is sufficient evidence from multiple sources to verify them. People saw them, spoke to them, saw them commit actions.

I think that the basic difference between man and the animals involves intelligence level. As the years progress we are finding that the differences are fewer. We used to use tool-making as proof…out the window.

I hope I’ve answered your questions . It’s always tough in such a complex case to answer without droning on.

 

[crochet_lady]

old celt
Would like to share some passages from Genesis about animals and man. Chapter 1: 21 & 22 water with living creatures in it and birds were created. On the 5th day of creation. And on the 6th day , the animals on land , cattle, creeping things and beasts of the earth and then in vs 26 God / trinity decides to make Man “and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and of the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
And That is the way the world operates – Man / people have dominion over all the animals. Meaning that we hunt and fish and have pets , etc. BUT people don’t / aren’t Supposed to hunt down and kill / eat other people.
We have People who are trained as medical personnel / Doctors, nurses, etc. to care for People in a People hospital. We also have People who are trained to care for Animals in Animal hospitals.
People mate with other people and produce off-spring who are also People who grow into adult people. Because God created man, 1st / Adam and then woman / Eve to be able to have children together. The egg / sperm combo.
Animals also mate and produce off spring that look just them. Dogs/ dogs cats/ cats, etc. Because God set it up that way.
And we Don’t see people mating with animals and producing off spring.
And people have written language not just sounds / talking / chirping / barking, etc.

And animals Are smart – very intelligent. But they are Not on human level.

Another observation – We Do have the Ten Commandments which our laws are patterned after.

If a person is driving a vehicle and hits a rabbit, squirrel, etc, we Don’t stop and call the police / ambulance and take it to a hospital.

However – if a person is driving a vehicle and hits a Person we Better be stopping and rendering aid , call police/ ambulance. It’s against the law for People to kill other people Unless it’s in defending our own lives.

One more question – what is it that determines that something is Right and something else is Wrong?

 

[oldcelt]

old celt
Would like to share some passages from Genesis about animals and man. Chapter 1: 21 & 22 water with living creatures in it and birds were created. On the 5th day of creation. And on the 6th day , the animals on land , cattle, creeping things and beasts of the earth and then in vs 26 God / trinity decides to make Man “and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and of the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
And That is the way the world operates – Man / people have dominion over all the animals. Meaning that we hunt and fish and have pets , etc. BUT people don’t / aren’t Supposed to hunt down and kill / eat other people.
We have People who are trained as medical personnel / Doctors, nurses, etc. to care for People in a People hospital. We also have People who are trained to care for Animals in Animal hospitals.
People mate with other people and produce off-spring who are also People who grow into adult people. Because God created man, 1st / Adam and then woman / Eve to be able to have children together. The egg / sperm combo.
Animals also mate and produce off spring that look just them. Dogs/ dogs cats/ cats, etc. Because God set it up that way.
And we Don’t see people mating with animals and producing off spring.
And people have written language not just sounds / talking / chirping / barking, etc.

And animals Are smart – very intelligent. But they are Not on human level.

Another observation – We Do have the Ten Commandments which our laws are patterned after.

If a person is driving a vehicle and hits a rabbit, squirrel, etc, we Don’t stop and call the police / ambulance and take it to a hospital.

However – if a person is driving a vehicle and hits a Person we Better be stopping and rendering aid , call police/ ambulance. It’s against the law for People to kill other people Unless it’s in defending our own lives.

One more question – what is it that determines that something is Right and something else is Wrong?

We do.
Beyond that, May I wish you all a most Merry Christmas. While the meaning has obviously changed for me, I maintain a deep respect for the Holiday.

 

[crochet_lady]

oldcelt
You said ‘we do’ – determine what is right and wrong? Based on What?

What do you base your deep respect for the season of On?

 

[oldcelt]

oldcelt
You said ‘we do’ – determine what is right and wrong? Based on What?

What do you base your deep respect for the season of On?

Our own sense of morality developed through family, friends, church, school, etc.

 

[crochet_lady]

oldcelt

If Society has such a great sense of morality then Why are our prisons / jails full and over-flowing? And What determines what is right and wrong? Why is it wrong to ‘borrow’ money from our neighbor if we need groceries and we’ve run out of Our money, since we’ve observed them getting groceries. Would You be upset if someone broke into Your house and took your computer cause their’s had broken down? Or suppose your neighbor approaches your spouse for an affair – would that upset you? Or a guy at work decides to vandilize your new car cause he’s jealous ?

 

[oldcelt]

oldcelt

If Society has such a great sense of morality then Why are our prisons / jails full and over-flowing? And What determines what is right and wrong? Why is it wrong to ‘borrow’ money from our neighbor if we need groceries and we’ve run out of Our money, since we’ve observed them getting groceries. Would You be upset if someone broke into Your house and took your computer cause their’s had broken down? Or suppose your neighbor approaches your spouse for an affair – would that upset you? Or a guy at work decides to vandilize your new car cause he’s jealous ?

You do realize that all I have to do is substitute God’s plan and blame it? How about a 17 year-old girl in Colorado dying from a school shooting? According to the belief that God is the omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator and operator of the universe, he, ** without a single doubt**, allowed that dear child to die and should be shunned accordingly.

By my belief, it is the absolutely tragic result of mental illness and easy access to weapons and explosives for another 17 year-old who also died. No God involved…if one even exists, it, he , she, is just as surprised and saddened.

It’s really simple…if God is in control, …never mind…He’s Not.

John