Creeds of men that the lord found abominable...from an lds explanation.

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why_me said:
And if you notice, no one has answered my question about what is in red. Was god pleased with the churches that represented christianity up to 1820?

And was this statement basically true?

“They draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me.”
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If the Catholic Church is true, as Catholics suppose, why would it be necessary to defend the non-Catholic churches up to 1820?

And what would be the significance of the situation if your statement which has its origin in Isaias were true of even the one true church? It could not possibly be used as any kind of indicator that the priestly authority of the New Testament was lost because it WAS true of the “one true church” of the Old Testament and yet we find over 700 years later that when Jesus healed the lepers, He was careful to instruct them to go to the priests of the Mosaic dispensation to illustrate that He in no way was in denial of the continuing authority of that priestly line regardless of any alleged or real faithlessness.

In 1820, the holy Cure of Ars, St. Jean Vianney, had been at Ars for two of his forty-one years in this humble French outpost town. It was the beginning of his causing such a fury to the kingdom of Hell, and such a reawakening to the sleepy French Catholics of the day, that his biographer asserts that even the devil, Satan himself, had conceded in one of his confrontations with the humble priest that if there were three such men of God as Vianney on earth, Satan’s kingdom would be broken. The autobiography of this great saintly model of priests is by itself adequate to refute the possibility that God is finished with and disgusted with the Catholic priesthood as of the times we are speaking. Catholics cannot but feel some sympathy when poor ignorant Protestants in a nation shrouded in darkness took it for granted that one could ignore the truth claims of the Catholic Church and the authority of Her priests. This is the sad, foul, and devilishly confusing environment in which Mormonism was born and without which it could never have begun.

So in conclusion, we do not agree that the characterization of Isaias applies to the Catholic Church of the 1820’s. If we did, it would not prove a loss of priestly authority in 1820 because it never proved so much even when the revelation was first received by the inspired prophet! It is not the fault of the Catholic Church if Mormonism seems to be a logical outgrowth to the problems faced by one who adhered to the misguided follies of the founders of Protestantism. The rash assessments of the Reformers of the 1500’s are equally matched by their children in the 1820’s and 2010’s when it comes to determining when God has abandoned a priestly hierarchy that He has once established.

Rory
 
Poor Eric Here:

Ask yourself for a moment why you are here posting.

Are you posting to prove you are right in your beliefs? Are you posting to prove someone else is wrong in their beliefs?

Calling me “poor Eric,” telling someone their form of worshiping Christ is a lie, making statements about a religion that are unsubstantiated, and setting up absolutes is not what I come to a forum for. Perhaps you do, but I do not. I come to be edified by hearing others bear witness of their faith, to share ideas and thoughts, to learn, to correct misconceptions, and to teach if the moment is appropriate to do so.

Bashing each other is easy. Treating each other with love and respect so we can grow together in Christ takes a bit more work; a bit more thought; and whole lot more patience.

I try not to let my pride get the best of me. My pride tells me to stay on this forum 24x7 and defend the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and pound my beliefs into your skull by slinging biblical scripture and quoting historical records. My pride lights a fire in my soul to grind it out no matter how much time it takes.

If I follow my pride where does that leave those around me? If you follow your pride where does that lead us? It is not about you being right and me being wrong or vice versa. It is not about me coming up with arguments as to why your religion is false and mine is true. It is about growing together in Christ. It is not about the last guy standing in the forum declaring victory because no one comes back to answer his question!

I have been told over and over again that my ideals in postings are stupid. Maybe they are. I’ll come back soon to bear testimony.

My love in Christ,
Eric
 
why_me said:
Does the episcopal church worship the one true god by ordaining gay bishops? And do the other protestant churches worship the one true god, if they ordain women pastors? And if they do allow these things are these protestant churches following false leaders?
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this is actually a very good question.😉
 
Eric, please remember that this is also a discussion and debate forum, and the Forum Rules allow charitable debating on Catholic and non-Catholic religions. Charitable being the key word, and the Moderators can step in if necessary.

Though it is interesting that you say what you say in a thread about traditional Christian creeds being “abominable”. 🤷
 
Hi Eric.

You raise some good questions about internet participation. It reminds me of a cartoon I recently saw where I seem to be the Dad sitting at the computer with my back to my family calling to me to come to dinner when I assure them that I will be there as quickly as possible, but that they will have to be patient because I am correcting someone that is “wrong on the internet.”

You mention why you do not come to this forum:
Calling me “poor Eric,” telling someone their form of worshiping Christ is a lie, making statements about a religion that are unsubstantiated, and setting up absolutes is not what I come to a forum for.
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  1. “Poor Eric” originates with a non-Catholic who is clearly sympathetic to LDS claims. So much so that many people here don’t believe him when he says he is not LDS.
  2. The implications of one true church cannot support a view of indifference toward forms of worship that are incompatible with that church. However, I agree that prudence and charity would direct that we be tender and considerate in how we treat those whose worship we cannot approve.
  3. It is difficult on the one hand to be brief, and to substantiate every statement with footnotes or references. Those of us who tend to want offer references for how we arrive at our positions are constantly reminded against being too wordy. And then when we are brief, we get asked to provide references. You can’t please everyone. And speaking for myself, I don’t trouble myself about LDS anything except the apostasy question. I get frustrated with Catholics who seem to get suckered into using methodologies against Mormons that historically have been used against Catholics. That was the context of my comments made toward my fellow Catholics who would dismiss Mormonism because they have heard that Mormons become “gods”. They don’t seem to me to understand what you mean. It seems defensible so long as one understands that the Catholic God that creates ex nihilo is not what the LDS believe they will advance unto.
  4. I don’t understand your objection to “setting up absolutes”. An internet where someone is free to be wrong is not the medium where anyone can seem to “set up absolutes”. But we can share what we believe and ordinarily, to believe in one thing is to disbelieve its contrary.
I apologize if I have given offense in perpetuating the characterization of you as “poor Eric”. But the person who gave you the title quoted me in saying how you had become burned out at the length of posts here, apparently mine. I don’t know if he consulted you about this or not, but I responded as though he had some insight into your thinking. If he was mistaken in so speaking for you, it seems to me that your quarrel was with him.

I mostly write for lurkers. I do enjoy it to a fault, sometimes taking too much of my hours off in the activity. I do not resolve to discontinue, but I think I need to cut back again for other priorities, as I have on previous occasions. Your wise words about pridefulness seem to me to be applicable in some respects to my own activity. Before we can persuade each other, we have to be drawn to each other. We have to want to go to church together. That is why we are obligated not merely to provide intellectual answers, but to to do so in an amiable way that builds respect and desire for spiritual union. Undoubtedly I sometimes fail to meet this ideal which Christ our model gave us. The most compelling fact in my willingness to believe in and obey Our Lord Jesus, is that He loved me, and still does. I want to believe Him and we need to be similarly loving and lovable if we will ever hope to persuade anyone.

God bless you Eric, and pray for me.

“poor” Rory
 
why_me said:
And if you notice, no one has answered my question about what is in red. Was god pleased with the churches that represented christianity up to 1820?

And was this statement basically true?

“They draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me.”
Click to expand...
I believe people have answered these two questions you just don’t pay attention to the answers because they give nuanced answers where you are looking for a simple one. By the way I don’t see your answer to those questions, so what’s your answer to each, yes or no?
 
eshuster said:
Poor Eric Here:

Ask yourself for a moment why you are here posting.

Are you posting to prove you are right in your beliefs? Are you posting to prove someone else is wrong in their beliefs?

I do not know about others, but I am not doing this for either reason. There is nothing to prove. For their to be something to prove indicates that either side could be correct and that is simply not the case. The Catholic Church is the true Church. Mormons follow a false prophet and worship a god unknown by the True God. I am here to post corrections as they appear

Calling me “poor Eric,” telling someone their form of worshiping Christ is a lie, making statements about a religion that are unsubstantiated, and setting up absolutes is not what I come to a forum for.

I cannot speak for someone calling you “poor Eric”. Perhaps it was warranted. Perhaps not. I will state very clearly that Mormons follow a false prophet and the God they worship is not the God of the Bible. It is not my intention to upset you, but I must speak the truth.

Perhaps you do, but I do not. I come to be edified by hearing others bear witness of their faith, to share ideas and thoughts, to learn, to correct misconceptions, and to teach if the moment is appropriate to do so.

I am here to proclaim the truth of the true God’s Gospel and to honor the Church Christ set up and sustained, as he promised He would, thru the current days

I try not to let my pride get the best of me. My pride tells me to stay on this forum 24x7 and defend the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and pound my beliefs into your skull by slinging biblical scripture and quoting historical records. My pride lights a fire in my soul to grind it out no matter how much time it takes.

If you truly follow the Scriptures, you will be Catholic someday.

If I follow my pride where does that leave those around me? If you follow your pride where does that lead us? It is not about you being right and me being wrong or vice versa. It is not about me coming up with arguments as to why your religion is false and mine is true. It is about growing together in Christ. It is not about the last guy standing in the forum declaring victory because no one comes back to answer his question!

It is about Proclaiming the truth and fighting against false prophets as those in the LDS Church
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