Crisis of faith

[jochoa]

No, you don’t have a free will. There is no you to have free will and thinking so is only illusion made by your mind automatically sticking “I” to everything that happens, even though it’s very obvious, when you look closely, that the choice is made automatically and then the “I chose” is stick to it. It is caused by our use of language from an early age. It’s no conspiracy, it’s just the way it is. Until you were 4 or so, you were functioning perfectly without the sense of I.

I am confident I understand your perspective regarding will, and it is definitely a wise application! Please consider the following:
When we consider the context of the pick a color question, the difference between your application of will and mine would be as follows:
Your definition and application of will is more wisdom-based, whereas my definition and application of will is more knowledge-based.
Wisdom recognizes that no matter what is willed, it must be the product of all past actions. (Determinism)
Knowledge recognizes that it is impossible to know everything that one will will in the day to come, because what we will do is subject to change based on what we will want and what will happen. (Free Will)

And it is this language barrier, the differences between Wisdom and Knowledge, which cause so many troubles in philosophical dialogue.

To be able to choose YES or NO, there would have to be some little piece of you separated from everything else that is thinker of your thoughts and chooser of choices and liver of your life.

Excellent concept, my friend! Thank you very much for sharing this awesome thought! Please consider the following interpretation and application: In this moment, I am separated from my future self. Right now, I am the thinker of my future self’s thoughts and chooser of choices and liver of my future self’s life, therefore I am able to choose Yes or No!

To conclude… I’m starting to like this. I know this very well… for Christians, Bible is the main wall stone of morality. I’m starting to think it may not be entirely true. Some of the countries that are rather atheistic have very small criminality compared to some of those of Christian faith. But even if statistic’s aren’t right… I think, say, some native tribe on a distant island without any organized religion still know that killing other human is wrong. Exceptions expected, but most atheists are still good people.

If you are claiming something is wrong, you must know the objective morality and the purpose for living from which it is founded on, which will demonstrate why killing other humans is wrong. Will you please share the purpose of human living you have ascribed?

Why would I want to depend upon something I find hard to believe if I can get the same result and peace with my reasoning intact?

I completely agree! If you can get the same result and peace with your reasoning intact, then there is no reason to depend upon something you find hard to understand. However, based upon your admittance that your religion is not knowing, then you can’t be certain you will get the same result. In my studies, I, personally, strive for certainty.

When you see a tiger runnning your direction, you will still be afraid, even though you know it is not an evil creature, it’s just in its nature to eat meat.

Perhaps try broadening your perspective: What if I am standing behind the glass at the zoo when it is running towards me? I wouldn’t be afraid. What if it is the cutest baby tiger running towards me? I wouldn’t be afraid. What if I really wanted to die? I wouldn’t be afraid. What if I really wanted to try and fight the tiger? I wouldn’t be afraid.

If it was a guy with a chainsaw, you would.

On the contrary, I wouldn’t, because I would simply listen to God, “Forgive them for ‘chainsaw killers’ know not what they do!” I wouldn’t even have to worry about knowing every second of this poor guy’s life, I would have already forgiven Him.

And you know what? If YOU were HIM in EVERY SECOND of his life, it would be you trying to kill you with a chainsaw. And it would be him. And her. And him. And this priest as well, if he went through exactly what this guy has. Because there is no special piece of us that would make us decide differently.

This is where it is best to recognize the importance of the free willed choice of studying and learning why Jesus embraced the cross and the Sacraments of His Church! Life can be so much simpler, unfortunately, most of us need tremendous amounts of proof, myself included. For Jesus embracing the cross and the Sacraments are the special piece of us that would make us decide differently!

Thank you very much for extended discussion! I especially found your concept of there having to be a little piece of me separated from everything else to be very enlightening!

 

[TruthSeekah]

Hey jochoa, thanks for deep anwers. I’ve read it all, but I’m very busy at the moment, so I’ll respond as soon as possible. In the meantime, could you please finally pick a color, a food, a city and stuff, you know? I’ll include it in my response so you see what I mean and we can all save some time .

Because - I know you are good man, but there is no need to be polite. I don’t take stuff personally and I feel like you don’t care as well, so we can get little dirty. Obviously, there is lot of personal stuff and views and beliefs, and that’s ok. But we’re getting too deep into them, althought what I’m saying is actually really simple.

You are saying that there is this thing commonly known as free will and there is someone who can choose, I’m saying they’re both just an illusion. So politeness is nice, but pointless at this point. One of us is right, one of us is wrong. This is not about respecting other beliefs - this is not about what you or me believe. This is about what is true, in real life, not dependent on what’s in your or my head.

I think we can agree that there is such thing as reality, in this kind of sense.

Thanks, have a great weekend.

 

[jochoa]

Hey jochoa, thanks for deep anwers. I’ve read it all, but I’m very busy at the moment, so I’ll respond as soon as possible. In the meantime, could you please finally pick a color, a food, a city and stuff, you know? I’ll include it in my response so you see what I mean and we can all save some time .

Fair enough, my friend!
Orange, Orange, Orange, and Orange.

You are saying that there is this thing commonly known as free will and there is someone who can choose, I’m saying they’re both just an illusion. So politeness is nice, but pointless at this point. One of us is right, one of us is wrong. This is not about respecting other beliefs - this is not about what you or me believe. This is about what is true, in real life, not dependent on what’s in your or my head.

A few points to consider:

1. I think I may have finally recognized that you may be speaking of our nature as to why we do not have free will. Is it because we are forced to operate according to our nature?
2. I am confident we are both right, given our specific understandings and definitions. For example, if you said the sky is blue, and I said it is orange, then which one of us is right, since one of us must be wrong regarding reality?

I look forward to hearing where you are going with the point about answering the question!

 

[ApologiaSophia]

part II:
No, you don’t have a free will. There is no you to have free will and thinking so is only illusion made by your mind automatically sticking “I” to everything that happens, even though it’s very obvious, when you look closely, that the choice is made automatically and then the “I chose” is stick to it. It is caused by our use of language from an early age. It’s no conspiracy, it’s just the way it is. Until you were 4 or so, you were functioning perfectly without the sense of I.

To be able to choose YES or NO, there would have to be some little piece of you separated from everything else that is thinker of your thoughts and chooser of choices and liver of your life. There is no such entity, other than in toughts, caused by language AFTER the thinking, choosing and thinking happens. Watch it closely and you can see, no need to believe me, absolutely none.

But everything you’re consciously aware of is consequence of prior causes you cannot inspect and therefor influence. Even if I were to spend two months going from YES to NO and back and forth and the sense of free will would be SO STRONG… the final choice wouldn’t be made by me. Yes or no would be chosen, but I’m in no position to say WHY I DIDN’T CHOOSE the other one.

You are right in that there is not way you could possibly prove free will, but I think to say there is no free will is still rather absurd. Think about it. If you say there is not free will, did you have a choice in believing that we have ne free will? And if I believe in free will, could I ever choose to not believe in free will? Well, if we have no free will, this would be a big “NO.” So here you are arguing on a thread that we have no free will, having no choice but to have the argument because you could not have chosen otherwise. Meanwhile, we are in a similar predicament arguing the opposite. This seems like foolishness, and I find the fact that we are able to reflect on our free will, or lack thereof, is sufficient enough for me to believe in free will. Furthermore, if we have no free will, why are people converted? Why do we want reasons to believe otherwise or to believe what we believe. To say it is illusory is an assertion not a proof. You have no proof of determinism either. At least free will is intuitive.

As far as your questions are concerned, I’m not really sure what you are struggling with exactly. Whatever your questions are, let me recommend you to some helpful websites:

johnlennox.org/

reasonablefaith.org/

reasons.org/about/who-we-are/hugh-ross

rzim.org/

dineshdsouza.com/

I also highly recommend that you youtube their debates.