C
Cluny
Guest
And how much less does “more edifying to me” mean the same as “more efficacious.”
- Status
L
LilyM
Guest
You honestly think no one EVER EVER had problems with either the form of the Mass or abuses of it before Paul VI? Interesting.
I’d be willing to make a sizeable bet that there would’ve been some who had much to ‘offer up’ when the switch was made from Greek to Latin, the vernacular of the day (look at the bellyaching that we hear to this day about the Mass of Paul VI being in vernacular!)
And I’d bet even more so that there were others, attached to forms that St Pius V did away with upon the promulgation of the TLM, that similarly ‘offered up’ their loss too.
And I KNOW St Bernardine of Siena discussed frankly abuses of the Mass of his day - up to and including priests who didn’t even KNOW, let alone say, the words of consecration. And I don’t mean a slight unwilled error, I mean saying an Ave Maria instead of ‘hoc est enim corpus meum’.
You betcha people were suffering and offering it up.
T
The_Prodigal
Guest
An African priest begged alms at our parish’s masses last week for his diocese in Tanzania. At the EF Mass, he commented he hadn’t really used his Latin since his days at seminary. I take that as evidence that the vernacular OF Mass is the norm in his part of the world.
From what I read, millions of Africans have converted to Catholicism recently - perhaps the largest mass conversion to the faith in its entire history! Africans have the highest vocation rate in the world and many priests come to the States to staff our parishes.
Using your list of criteria, clearly the NO (plus novelties? - I think they dance at Mass in some places -
) is having a terrific effect on the spiritual life in Africa 
Now, I’m sure someone will explain why Africa doesn’t count…
C
Cat
Guest
We are currently enjoying one of those African priests in our parish–a brilliant homilist and lovely chanter. He uses Latin and chanting in his Masses, but he also praises the music of the teenagers and children. I believe he’s also one of the canon lawyers in our diocese. I just love him and am grateful to Africa for sending him to us!An African priest begged alms at our parish’s masses last week for his diocese in Tanzania. At the EF Mass, he commented he hadn’t really used his Latin since his days at seminary. I take that as evidence that the vernacular OF Mass is the norm in his part of the world.
From what I read, millions of Africans have converted to Catholicism recently - perhaps the largest mass conversion to the faith in its entire history! Africans have the highest vocation rate in the world and many priests come to the States to staff our parishes.
Using your list of criteria, clearly the NO (plus novelties? - I think they dance at Mass in some places -
Now, I’m sure someone will explain why Africa doesn’t count…
L
Layman
Guest
Compare and contrast. The following, depending on your outlook either shows:
If every priest at least knew the Latin Mass, he could easily fit in any parish in the world, except for hearing confessions. An African priest from a poor background could get himself a nice ‘gig’ in a Western parish, and a retired Western one could say Mass in a warmer clime. At either Mass, any good Catholic with a basic missal would have been able to understand what was going on; a truly universal rite.
Priests in the past may have been ignorant. Today, the problem is different: they can, quite licitly, ‘tweak’ the Mass to suit themselves. I understand it can range from the London Oratory Latin ad-orientem Novus Ordo Missae, to one with the vernacular, EMCs, a pop band, an altar covered in kid’s drawings and make-up-the-words-as-you-go-along. With some Charismatic gibbering thrown in, if you want.
Funny behaviour at a solemn and mysterious sacrificial rite honouring the omnipotent Lord Of Creation.
There are contradictions here:
I would guess traditional orders will have their pick of parishes over the next few decades, unless bishops and congregations really think a ‘communion service’ is an adequate subsititute for a Mass.
- How far we have come or
- How much the current generation is deprived.
If every priest at least knew the Latin Mass, he could easily fit in any parish in the world, except for hearing confessions. An African priest from a poor background could get himself a nice ‘gig’ in a Western parish, and a retired Western one could say Mass in a warmer clime. At either Mass, any good Catholic with a basic missal would have been able to understand what was going on; a truly universal rite.
Priests in the past may have been ignorant. Today, the problem is different: they can, quite licitly, ‘tweak’ the Mass to suit themselves. I understand it can range from the London Oratory Latin ad-orientem Novus Ordo Missae, to one with the vernacular, EMCs, a pop band, an altar covered in kid’s drawings and make-up-the-words-as-you-go-along. With some Charismatic gibbering thrown in, if you want.
Funny behaviour at a solemn and mysterious sacrificial rite honouring the omnipotent Lord Of Creation.
There are contradictions here:
- It’s a sacred rite (but the laity can pop into and out of the sanctuary during it).
- It’s a sacred rite (but we think the common language is aedquate for it).
- It’s a sacred altar (with kid’s drawings on it);
- The priest is a person set apart (but Mrs. EMC can read the epistle and distribute communion).
- The priest must carefully purify the vessels and his hands, (but Mrs. EMC doesn’t have to.)
- We humbly revere Christ the King (but we’ve stopped bending the knee to receive Him).
I would guess traditional orders will have their pick of parishes over the next few decades, unless bishops and congregations really think a ‘communion service’ is an adequate subsititute for a Mass.
O
OraProNobisIHM
Guest
This post is full of win.
T
The_Prodigal
Guest
I note that at the FSSP website, there is a photo of 46 postulants entering the Fraternity’s two seminaries this year. A good thing, to be sure! Hardly enough to convert the nations, though.
You would need about twice that number to staff the parishes that the Diocese of Scranton felt it necessary to close this year - and that’s a single diocese.
C
Cluny
Guest
And except, of course, for Eastern Catholic parishes. Or do you think they are not really Catholic?
Priests are not interchangable work units, in any case. Every parish has its own character.
Vernacular Aramaic and Greek were good enough for Jesus.
Latin was originally used PRECISELY because it was the vernacular.
And just why do you think Jerome’s Latin Bible was called the Vulgate?
It’s PRECISELY because it was translated into vernacular, common Latin, instead of the Classical idiom.
We never started.
Kneeling for Communion has never been the practice in the Byzantine Liturgies, or (as far as I can tell) most other Eastern Liturgies.
Now, what exactly does anything you have brought up here have to do with the “efficacy” of a given Mass?
Please explain.
L
Layman
Guest
C
Cluny
Guest
Your proposition is wrong prima facie.
The quickest, easiest, and simplest way to union with Christ is through reception of the Holy Eucharist.
This mystery is validly accomplished (or “confected”, to use the Western term) at any Eucharistic liturgy authorized by the Church.
The EF does this no more easily than the OF.
Ceremonial and language do not affect this.
Furthermore, there are only FOUR THINGS that make a Eucharistic Sacrifice invalid:
- Invalid matter–that is, not wheat bread or pure grape wine.
- Improper form–that is, not using the words provided in the rite for consecrating the Eucharist.
- Lack of intention–this is hard to prove, btw; intention is presumed unless there is positive evidence to the contrary.
- Lack of a valid minister. All the ordination rites approved and promulgated by the Church are automatically valid. This means that Latin Rite deacons, priests, and bishops ordained by newly authorized rites are true deacons, priests, and bishops.
And there were liturgical abuses of the Latin mass as well, even before V2.
Again, all you are saying boils down to, “I don’t like the EF.”
Well, nobody said you had to like it.
But you may NOT say it is ineffacacious.
L
Layman
Guest
I haven’t questioned it’s validity. I would like to attend one done as Paul VI and our current Pope favour.
I have asked what the criteria are for determining the efficacy of a rite, with all current the people-focused add-ons. I am concerned as to how this rite will look in another forty years at the current rate of change.
Here’s another contradiction in the position of those who think all is well with the O.F.:
- Your internal disposition is what matters when you receive Communion In The Hand instead of kneeling, on the tongue (but your internal feelings about whether this rite is doing you as much good as the old one must be discounted).
The argument that there were abuses in how the EF was done over 40 years ago are now moot. You now have a generation which not only wasn’t alive then, but have no knowledge of that rite whatsoever. They think EMCs and CITH and the laity crowding into the Holy of Holies are normal.
Also, in the old days I imagine abuses were done out of ignorance, carelessness or, rarely, malice. But they would have been seen by everyone who knew the rite as wrong. Now it appears they can get an indult, if persisted in and adopted by enough clergy. Or ignored, if your bishop is progressive.
**I invite anyone curious about the old rite to Google the terms “Latin Mass Society” “FSSP” and “Institute of Christ the King”, adding the country where you live, to see if there’s any Latin Mass going on locally.
Or ask your local clergy about private Latin Masses at convents and hospitals. Or enquire of the hospitals and convents direct.**
You could also Google “SSPX”. However, you may not go to confession or get married by their priests. Safer not to take Communion either, until they’re regularised, as Communion means you accept the authority of the priest, which Rome hasn’t granted.
But you could attend, if there’s no alternative approved Latin Mass locally, just to have a look. I see there’s an SSPX chapel a good deal nearer to where I live in Ireland, than the approved Latin Masses. Making a mental note and hoping for they get regularised soon!
I have asked what the criteria are for determining the efficacy of a rite, with all current the people-focused add-ons. I am concerned as to how this rite will look in another forty years at the current rate of change.
Here’s another contradiction in the position of those who think all is well with the O.F.:
- Your internal disposition is what matters when you receive Communion In The Hand instead of kneeling, on the tongue (but your internal feelings about whether this rite is doing you as much good as the old one must be discounted).
The argument that there were abuses in how the EF was done over 40 years ago are now moot. You now have a generation which not only wasn’t alive then, but have no knowledge of that rite whatsoever. They think EMCs and CITH and the laity crowding into the Holy of Holies are normal.
Also, in the old days I imagine abuses were done out of ignorance, carelessness or, rarely, malice. But they would have been seen by everyone who knew the rite as wrong. Now it appears they can get an indult, if persisted in and adopted by enough clergy. Or ignored, if your bishop is progressive.
**I invite anyone curious about the old rite to Google the terms “Latin Mass Society” “FSSP” and “Institute of Christ the King”, adding the country where you live, to see if there’s any Latin Mass going on locally.
Or ask your local clergy about private Latin Masses at convents and hospitals. Or enquire of the hospitals and convents direct.**
You could also Google “SSPX”. However, you may not go to confession or get married by their priests. Safer not to take Communion either, until they’re regularised, as Communion means you accept the authority of the priest, which Rome hasn’t granted.
But you could attend, if there’s no alternative approved Latin Mass locally, just to have a look. I see there’s an SSPX chapel a good deal nearer to where I live in Ireland, than the approved Latin Masses. Making a mental note and hoping for they get regularised soon!
C
Cluny
Guest
The Mystery of the Eucharist and its efficacy are not affected by how one receives Communion, nor how one feels about a given celebration.
There is no contradiction in the boldfaced statement.
In any case, the efficacy of any Mass is NOT dependent on how you “feel” about it.
And THAT is the original subject of your thread–presuming to judge the efficacy of a Mass.
You keep on changing the subject.
BTW, to refer to something you said earlier in one of your many subject changes, the Church is NOT the entire Catholic Church, nor is the Roman Rite (in any form) the standard for Catholic liturgy.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Do be careful, lest you cross the line into “Thank you, Lord, that you did not make me like other men.”
Be careful, lest you become one that hinders the little children from coming unto Him.
Be careful, lest you be heard whispering, “Does he know what sort of woman this is that touches him?”
Be careful, lest you be the one caught complaining that his disciples do not wash according to the proper ritual.
For did he say that the Last Judgement would rule in favor of those who chose the correct language with which to say, “Lord! Lord!”? He most emphatically did not.
The rubrics are a gift, and we have them for the reason. I am not trying to make you out to be some sort of Pharisee. You are not wrong to point out the graces they offer, and I don’t mean to say that those who are oblivious to them are not deprived of a ready source of grace. I am cautioning you, though, to deliver your message in keeping with the greater truths which we are all bound to live by. Every word that comes out of our mouths (or keyboards) will speak either toward our acquital or towards our condemnation. Be zealous, but do be careful in your zeal.
We do need to be sure that we keep the main thing the main thing.
P
pnewton
Guest
Because my dear Cat, some people never grow out of it. It is part of our fallen nature to find pleasure in the demeaning that which is different in a way to elevate our own opinions.
This whole question of efficacy has been answered. Infinite grace is available at Mass. Period. It is only our sinful nature which limits the efficacy of the Mass. To answer the question, the Mass which is most beneficial is the one in which we find it easiest to be open to that grace. This is one reason I believe the TLM should be offered universally. Many find it easier to be open to the grace of God through this means of spirituality. Others find a great ease of openness through a Mass more easily understood in their own language.
I think it important to understand though that the greatest faith is available for one who needs neither; that unlike Thomas, we do not need to feel the nail prints in the hands.
L
Layman
Guest
If the remark was directed at me, I don’t see where I’ve attacked anyone, like a bully picking on a little kid, but I’ll be happy to have someone point out where, exactly.
Also, to return to my original question, what is efficacy in the context of a Mass? I thought Lancer gave the best definition: union with Christ, but I don’t know if there’s an official declaration, as opposed to the opinions of posters here. If I missed it, please repeat it, so others can see also.
My arguments meandered to the novelties associated with the O.F. because I see them as, collectively, shifting focus to the participants instead of Christ.
Or do people think that as long as the Mass is validly said, it’s not so important how the participants behave?
Also, to return to my original question, what is efficacy in the context of a Mass? I thought Lancer gave the best definition: union with Christ, but I don’t know if there’s an official declaration, as opposed to the opinions of posters here. If I missed it, please repeat it, so others can see also.
My arguments meandered to the novelties associated with the O.F. because I see them as, collectively, shifting focus to the participants instead of Christ.
Or do people think that as long as the Mass is validly said, it’s not so important how the participants behave?
C
Cluny
Guest
The Mass is always focused on Christ, period, regardless of distractions by others present.
The behavior of the participants do not (except for the four things I mentioned earlier) make the Mass invalid.
Nowhere have I ever approved of violating the rubrics or doing things in an unseemly manner.
In case there is doubt, I will repeat what I have said more than once already: Say the black, do the red, and abuses will vanish.
All the ballons, dancing girls, guitars, EMHC’s, female lectors and servers, and felt banners in the world do NOT make a Mass inefficacious or invalid.
Period.
(Obviously the ability to strum three chords and move a capo do not make one a liturgical guitarist.)
P
pnewton
Guest
I am sorry to have you think so. It most definitely was not directed at you. I just know what Cat was referring to and have seen very uncharitable attitudes stem from a pharistical stance on who has the best Mass. The worst offenders never last long.
As to the purpose of the Mass, since the Eucharist is called the Source and Summit of the Christian life (Lumen Gentium), then the deliver of a valid Eucharist is the most important thing that occurs in Mass. I think any other question is so far secondary as to be managable by anyone. Christ is sufficient for everything. His Grace is sufficient for anything.
C
Cluny
Guest
L
Layman
Guest
Interesting.
Well, we’ll just have to wait and see. The Church moves at a slower pace than does its members. The next two decades could be interesting. Hopefully Latin Masses will pop up here and there gradually. Or even suddenly.
Addendum: I forgot that you can also employ a priest direct as your personal chaplain. You can have a Latin Mass, and invite others to attend. I think you can’t publicly list it, I guess because you might divert people away from the local churches, but I don’t know.
A local group could share the expenses of said Mass between them. Heck, if they could stump up a goodly stipend, they might have a queue of priests wanting to do it. Just a guess. But you have to let the local bishop know, and I’d guess inform the local PP what you were doing. Good manners can buy more than gold.
Now that would be a luxury. I wish I was rich, if only for that reason. Build your own chapel, fit it out splendidly, organise a schola, and then, every Sunday, glory! And/or you could do First Fridays and Saturdays; those are useful indulgences.
Millionaires take note! Other rich men’s yachts and mansion would look like cheap beer if you happened to mention casually that you had your own chaplain and chapel, like an English lord [heh heh, beat that, Bill Gates!].
Or you could hint you were going to do this, to the local PP/Bishop. Who knows, they might then make the facilities available to you to do it on their turf [grin].
Well, we’ll just have to wait and see. The Church moves at a slower pace than does its members. The next two decades could be interesting. Hopefully Latin Masses will pop up here and there gradually. Or even suddenly.
Addendum: I forgot that you can also employ a priest direct as your personal chaplain. You can have a Latin Mass, and invite others to attend. I think you can’t publicly list it, I guess because you might divert people away from the local churches, but I don’t know.
A local group could share the expenses of said Mass between them. Heck, if they could stump up a goodly stipend, they might have a queue of priests wanting to do it. Just a guess. But you have to let the local bishop know, and I’d guess inform the local PP what you were doing. Good manners can buy more than gold.
Now that would be a luxury. I wish I was rich, if only for that reason. Build your own chapel, fit it out splendidly, organise a schola, and then, every Sunday, glory! And/or you could do First Fridays and Saturdays; those are useful indulgences.
Millionaires take note! Other rich men’s yachts and mansion would look like cheap beer if you happened to mention casually that you had your own chaplain and chapel, like an English lord [heh heh, beat that, Bill Gates!].
Or you could hint you were going to do this, to the local PP/Bishop. Who knows, they might then make the facilities available to you to do it on their turf [grin].
P
pnewton
Guest
I have thought that if a large enough group pledged to support a priest saying the TLM they would have little trouble finding a parish willing to take their offerings.
- Status