Criticism of Joseph Smith

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AtticusFinch said:
Well, you answered questions SORTA and you provided faulty references. So,…
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Now I can understand you better now that I remember you from MAD. You were then a little rude toward the catholics on that board. I remember that you were concerned about the sex abuse scandals that plagued the catholic church from the past. I have no idea how you balance the sex scandals in the catholic church that you are now hearing on the TV.

History is always open to interpretation. You say swarm and I say grew in numbers and needed a place to settle.
 
why_me said:
I remember him now! I think that he was a little anticatholic if I remember correctly. Yea, he certainly has changed since he became a catholic again. I remember that he was very concerned about the sex scandals in the 1970’s in the catholic church.

Now we have other sex scandals in the catholic church. It must be a little bizarre for him.
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I did not have a problem with the sex scandals. I had a big problem with the Church removing Bernard Law from US Jurisdiction to Vatican City. THAT still bothers me. I let it eat at me. I was wrong.
 
why_me said:
Now I can understand you better now that I remember you from MAD. You were then a little rude toward the catholics on that board. I remember that you were concerned about the sex abuse scandals that plagued the catholic church from the past. I have no idea how you balance the sex scandals in the catholic church that you are now hearing on the TV.

COLOR=“Blue”]I did not have a problem with the sex scandals. I had a big problem with the Church removing Bernard Law from US Jurisdiction to Vatican City. THAT still bothers me. I let it eat at me. I was wrong. So, it has little to do with the current scandals in Europe. I detest Priests who are guilty and there is NO excuse. But the Church is not at fault for the Priests. They took the jobs, not for God, but to prey. The fault of the Church lies with moving them to other parishes. They should have all been defrocked when they were caught
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History is always open to interpretation. You say swarm and I say grew in numbers and needed a place to settle.

A huge migration from Kirtland and New York to Missouri was not growing in numbers, it was more like a swarm.
 
whyme - still bringing up the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church on the Joseph Smith threads? still talking about persecution?

I am convinced you are here to stall and fill post after post after post with the same stuff.

How about hopping over to the other threads and answer some of the questions? Not that it won’t contain more sex abuse and persecution information…
 
lax16 said:
whyme - still bringing up the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church on the Joseph Smith threads? still talking about persecution?

I am convinced you are here to stall and fill post after post after post with the same stuff.

How about hopping over to the other threads and answer some of the questions? Not that it won’t contain more sex abuse and persecution information…
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Some people just don’t understand the concept of staying on topic. See my earlier post.
  1. When confronted with things they cannot or do not want to go into, their either try to divert the conversation, or just quit posting."
 
Twopekinguy-
Catholic and protestant? How is that possible? Isn’t that an oxymoron?
 
My favorite, hilarious Joseph Smith moment (it’s hard to choose) was when he got a hold of that Egyptian mummy and sarcophogus. He claimed to be able to translate the scroll that accompanied it. He went on to “translate” it and claimed it was the book of abraham…the lost stories of the great patriarch. In the late 1980’s some Egyptologists translated (for real) the same scroll and it turned out to be an embalming procedural explanation or something like that, how to make a mummy. Hilarious. After all these crazy revelations as well as the HUGE heaping list of anachronisms in the Book of Mormon that show it to be bunk, how can anyone really buy this religion? It reminds me of L Ron Hubbard man-made pseudo-religion…🤷
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
My favorite, hilarious Joseph Smith moment (it’s hard to choose) was when he got a hold of that Egyptian mummy and sarcophogus. He claimed to be able to translate the scroll that accompanied it. He went on to “translate” it and claimed it was the book of abraham…the lost stories of the great patriarch. In the late 1980’s some Egyptologists translated (for real) the same scroll and it turned out to be an embalming procedural explanation or something like that, how to make a mummy. Hilarious. After all these crazy revelations as well as the HUGE heaping list of anachronisms in the Book of Mormon that show it to be bunk, how can anyone really buy this religion? It reminds me of L Ron Hubbard man-made pseudo-religion…🤷
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I think that this should answer your problem:

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri/Church_disclosure_of_%22Book_of_the_Dead%22

Nibley provides more information
In addition to photographs of the papyri and a discussion of their provenance, the Improvement Era began a continuing series of articles by LDS scholar Hugh Nibley in January 1968.

Nibley’s material did nothing to hide the fact that the JSP were from the Egyptian Book of the Dead.[4]

In August 1968, he repeatedly emphasized that much of the text was the Egyptian Book of the Dead:

“…the texts of the ‘Joseph Smith Papyri’ identified as belonging to the Book of the Dead” (p. 55)
“…The largest part of the Joseph Smith Papyri in the possession of the Church consists of fragments from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the fragments having been recently translated and discussed by no less a scholar that Professor John A. Wilson.” (p. 57)
“These points can be illustrated by the mst easily recognized section of the Joseph Smith papyri, namely, the fragment with the picture of a swallow, Chapter 86 of the Book of the Dead…”(p. 57)
“…we may take the best-known picture from the Book of the Dead, the well-known judgment scene or ‘Psychostasy,’ a fine example of which is found among the Joseph Smith papyi.” (p. 59)
Lest the reader miss this claim in the small print, it was reprinted in large bold type across two pages:

“The largest parts of the…papyri in possession of the Church consists of fragments from the Egyptian Book of the Dead…” (pp. 56-57) See image (680 KB).
Conclusion
Of the 11 fragments, one fragment has Facsimile 1, and the other 10 fragments are funerary texts, which the Church claimed from the moment the papyri were rediscovered.

**There is no evidence that the Church has ever claimed that any of the 10 remaining fragments contain text which is contained in the Book of Abraham.

The critics are telling us nothing new when they dramatically “announce” that the JSP contain Egyptian funerary documents. The Church disseminated this information as widely as possible from the very beginning.**

There is more information in the above link. The Improvement Era was a church published magazine which eventually became the Ensign.

It often amazes me the nonsense I have to read on the mormon threads pretaining to mormonism. Now the question is: will the catholic poster learn from his mistake?
 
And we also have this about the book of abraham:

Oversimplifying the translation issues

The issues surrounding the translation of the Egyptian papyri that resulted in the Book of Abraham are much more complex than critics would like us to believe. Foremost, it is significant to realize that we don’t have all the papyri that were originally owned by Joseph. Of the five scrolls originally owned by Joseph, only eleven fragments of two scrolls have survived—one of which is an Egyptian Sensen text containing the vignette for Facsimile 1 from the LDS Book of Abraham. Basically, we don’t know exactly what was missing, so we can’t say for certain that Joseph Smith’s papyri collection didn’t contain a document that could translate into the Book of Abraham.

But why, some might ask, would a Book of Abraham be present among ancient Egyptian funerary scrolls? We know from other ancient documents that sometimes scrolls with different material were attached together. Some ancient copies of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, for example, have been found to contain a variety of other non-funerary texts including stories similar to the sacrifice of Abraham (involving different personalities), temple rituals, and more. Yale-trained, professional Egyptologist Dr. John Gee estimates that about 40% of known Sensen texts have other texts attached to them.

Some Egyptian papyri, for example, contain Egyptian instructions on one side and Semitic writings on the back side—in one case Psalms chapters 20–55. One Egyptian temple archive (with an extensive collection of Egyptian rituals), provides an early copy of the “Prayer of Jacob” and two copies of the “Eighth Book of Moses” with a discussion of the initiation into the temple at Jerusalem. Both Moses and Abraham are mentioned in this collection and the most commonly invoked deity is Jehovah.

Finally, we know that ancient Israelites sometimes used Egyptian symbols to convey religious teachings. Many Biblical scholars, for instance, believe that an ancient Egyptian book—the Instructions of Amenemope—may have been the source for portions of the biblical book of Proverbs. An ancient Testament of Abraham also seems to have a connection to the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

It is not unlikely—in fact it seems plausible in light of other documentary discoveries—that an ancient Book of Abraham was attached to the Egyptian papyri owned by Joseph Smith. Properly interpreting the Egyptian elements in the Facsimiles may well require that we understand how Jewish authors understood and adapted such elements.

The critics’ “irrefutable evidence” is anything but.

en.fairmormon.org/Search_for_the_Truth_DVD/Book_of_Abraham

Life is not so simple for people who wish to understand the origins of the Book of Abraham.
 
twopekinguys said:
Some people just don’t understand the concept of staying on topic. See my earlier post.
  1. When confronted with things they cannot or do not want to go into, their either try to divert the conversation, or just quit posting."
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Well, since ceeboo took us off topic when he recognized atticus from MAD and after reading what ceeboo wrote I then, remembered atticus from the MAD board, I can safely claim that ceeboo took us off topic. But you could not recognize that fact, could you?
 
AtticusFinch said:
A huge migration from Kirtland and New York to Missouri was not growing in numbers, it was more like a swarm.
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Actually it was growing in numbers since people were converting to the lds faith. However, is it okay to burn out and murder the swarm in a free society that allows the free movement of people?
 
why_me said:
I think that this should answer your problem:

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri/Church_disclosure_of_%22Book_of_the_Dead%22

Nibley provides more information
In addition to photographs of the papyri and a discussion of their provenance, the Improvement Era began a continuing series of articles by LDS scholar Hugh Nibley in January 1968.

Nibley’s material did nothing to hide the fact that the JSP were from the Egyptian Book of the Dead.[4]

In August 1968, he repeatedly emphasized that much of the text was the Egyptian Book of the Dead:

“…the texts of the ‘Joseph Smith Papyri’ identified as belonging to the Book of the Dead” (p. 55)
“…The largest part of the Joseph Smith Papyri in the possession of the Church consists of fragments from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the fragments having been recently translated and discussed by no less a scholar that Professor John A. Wilson.” (p. 57)
“These points can be illustrated by the mst easily recognized section of the Joseph Smith papyri, namely, the fragment with the picture of a swallow, Chapter 86 of the Book of the Dead…”(p. 57)
“…we may take the best-known picture from the Book of the Dead, the well-known judgment scene or ‘Psychostasy,’ a fine example of which is found among the Joseph Smith papyi.” (p. 59)
Lest the reader miss this claim in the small print, it was reprinted in large bold type across two pages:

“The largest parts of the…papyri in possession of the Church consists of fragments from the Egyptian Book of the Dead…” (pp. 56-57) See image (680 KB).
Conclusion
Of the 11 fragments, one fragment has Facsimile 1, and the other 10 fragments are funerary texts, which the Church claimed from the moment the papyri were rediscovered.

**There is no evidence that the Church has ever claimed that any of the 10 remaining fragments contain text which is contained in the Book of Abraham.

The critics are telling us nothing new when they dramatically “announce” that the JSP contain Egyptian funerary documents. The Church disseminated this information as widely as possible from the very beginning.**

There is more information in the above link. The Improvement Era was a church published magazine which eventually became the Ensign.

It often amazes me the nonsense I have to read on the mormon threads pretaining to mormonism. Now the question is: will the catholic poster learn from his mistake?
Click to expand...
Do you have anything not from a Mormon Magazine or Mormon Apologist (Nibley) who was accused of raping his daughter?
 
why_me said:
Actually it was growing in numbers since people were converting to the lds faith. However, is it okay to burn out and murder the swarm in a free society that allows the free movement of people?
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I never said it was ok to murder. Funny how you throw red herrings out there. I simply said that swarming into an area is one of the ways Mormons angered the people already there. Try to stay on point, ok?
 
AtticusFinch said:
Hi Ceebo!

When I saw you last, on a different board, I was going thru a Spritual crisis. Literally pulled in two directions. Long story…difficult story, but the bottom line is everything worked out for the best and to the Glory of God.
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No doctrine can give out salvation, AtticusFinch, Christ is not bound to any four walls of a paticular church. Why did you leave the LDS church?
 
AtticusFinch said:
Do you have anything not from a Mormon Magazine or Mormon Apologist (Nibley) who was accused of raping his daughter?
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AtticusFinch said:
I never said it was ok to murder. Funny how you throw red herrings out there. I simply said that swarming into an area is one of the ways Mormons angered the people already there. Try to stay on point, ok?
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Hmmm, red herring thower. DUCK! Atticuss is throwing out a stinky one!
 
Dominic_Korozya said:
No doctrine can give out salvation, AtticusFinch, Christ is not bound to any four walls of a paticular church. Why did you leave the LDS church?
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I was a very faith ful Mormon. I had served a mission. I had served in the EQ Presidency. I was serving in the Bishopric. Every year, I tried to visit either Nauvoo or Palmyra. I had been to Palmyra a couple of times, but had never been during the Pageant because the Pageant was always during my law school exam week. My last year of law school, exams were a week earlier, so I was able to see the pageant. Unlike every other visit to Palmyra, this time, it was packed. And not just with LDS. There were a LOT of anti-LDS preaching and handing out tracts. I got into a debate with some of them and felt I did pretty well. I was determined, however, to become more knowledgable in order to be a better apologist. I vowed to read a LDS doctrinal or LDS history book every week. So, I did. I read all the time.

The more I read, the more I thought, “I was never taught this”. I read such teachings as “as man is…” and I read JS Journal, where he had several versions of the First Vision, I read book after book and read stuff I had never heard before. And these were LDS books! Then, one night, I was flipping channels and I saw John Ankerberg (or whatever his name is). He had a show on the Masons. So, I watched. They discussed the Masonic Temple Ceremonies and it was like I was watching a description of the Mormon Temple Ceremonies. I could not believe the Masons had stolen from us! So I did some research and discovered that JS did not have his “revelation” of the temple until AFTER he had become familiar with the Masonic Temple ceremonies!

The more I studied the old books, the more I began to doubt. Finally, I asked to be released from my callings until I could sort it all out. Once I did that, harrasment started. Mormons would call me at midnight to tell me I was going to hell because I had committed the one unforgiveable sin. They would see me in a store and mock me. It got really bad.

Then, one night, some LDS tried to kidnap my children and send them to Idaho because I was no longer a fit parent. One of them ended up in the hospital, the police were called. It got ugly. The police refused to arrest me for assault, but wanted me to pursue charges against him for attempted kidnapping. I worked for a judge. I was his bailiff/law clerk. The next day, he heard about it and he took me downstairs to see the District Attorney. They tried to talk me into pressing charges, but by then, I was afraid. I could not be home all the time and my wife did not speak English. I was afraid of retribution, so I refused. I sent a letter to the Stake President asking my name to be taken from the Church Records. In response, I got a letter from the Stake President calling me to a Church Court. The charges were speaking against the Church. Apparently, I was not even allowed to discuss my issues with my wife. I did not attend. I then got a letter excomunicating me. We left the area a few months later after I passed the bar exam.

For many years, I hated the LDS Church (though still loved my mission experience). Then, a few years ago, the hatred went away. Now and then, I attend a Sac meeting. I watch General Conference now and then. I even considered going back. But, I could never get passed the doctrinal issues and the whole “apostasy” thing. For there to be an Apostasy, Jesus would have to be a liar, very weak, and/or very cruel.

I love much about the LDS Church: The commeraderie, FHE, Home Teaching, no smoking or drinoing (I have never smokes or drank alcohol). There is much to like. But without THE authority, I could not go back.

Now, if you are still awake, I hope that answers your question.
 
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