Criticism of Joseph Smith

[twopekinguys]

I was a very faith ful Mormon. I had served a mission. I had served in the EQ Presidency. I was serving in the Bishopric. Every year, I tried to visit either Nauvoo or Palmyra. I had been to Palmyra a couple of times, but had never been during the Pageant because the Pageant was always during my law school exam week. My last year of law school, exams were a week earlier, so I was able to see the pageant. Unlike every other visit to Palmyra, this time, it was packed. And not just with LDS. There were a LOT of anti-LDS preaching and handing out tracts. I got into a debate with some of them and felt I did pretty well. I was determined, however, to become more knowledgable in order to be a better apologist. I vowed to read a LDS doctrinal or LDS history book every week. So, I did. I read all the time.

The more I read, the more I thought, “I was never taught this”. I read such teachings as “as man is…” and I read JS Journal, where he had several versions of the First Vision, I read book after book and read stuff I had never heard before. And these were LDS books! Then, one night, I was flipping channels and I saw John Ankerberg (or whatever his name is). He had a show on the Masons. So, I watched. They discussed the Masonic Temple Ceremonies and it was like I was watching a description of the Mormon Temple Ceremonies. I could not believe the Masons had stolen from us! So I did some research and discovered that JS did not have his “revelation” of the temple until AFTER he had become familiar with the Masonic Temple ceremonies!

The more I studied the old books, the more I began to doubt. Finally, I asked to be released from my callings until I could sort it all out. Once I did that, harrasment started. Mormons would call me at midnight to tell me I was going to hell because I had committed the one unforgiveable sin. They would see me in a store and mock me. It got really bad.

Then, one night, some LDS tried to kidnap my children and send them to Idaho because I was no longer a fit parent. One of them ended up in the hospital, the police were called. It got ugly. The police refused to arrest me for assault, but wanted me to pursue charges against him for attempted kidnapping. I worked for a judge. I was his bailiff/law clerk. The next day, he heard about it and he took me downstairs to see the District Attorney. They tried to talk me into pressing charges, but by then, I was afraid. I could not be home all the time and my wife did not speak English. I was afraid of retribution, so I refused. I sent a letter to the Stake President asking my name to be taken from the Church Records. In response, I got a letter from the Stake President calling me to a Church Court. The charges were speaking against the Church. Apparently, I was not even allowed to discuss my issues with my wife. I did not attend. I then got a letter excomunicating me. We left the area a few months later after I passed the bar exam.

For many years, I hated the LDS Church (though still loved my mission experience). Then, a few years ago, the hatred went away. Now and then, I attend a Sac meeting. I watch General Conference now and then. I even considered going back. But, I could never get passed the doctrinal issues and the whole “apostasy” thing. For there to be an Apostasy, Jesus would have to be a liar, very weak, and/or very cruel.

I love much about the LDS Church: The commeraderie, FHE, Home Teaching, no smoking or drinoing (I have never smokes or drank alcohol). There is much to like. But without THE authority, I could not go back.

Now, if you are still awake, I hope that answers your question.

Great post!

You have described something that I see alot from former lds, and that is you studied your way out.

Personally, if I were you, I would write to SLC to have the reason you left changed from excommunication to resignation. I know there has been alot of hub bub about that over the past few years.

I know there was one case involving a woman and a protestant church. She formally resigned, but was later excommunicated. She took the church to court and won.

Something to think about.

 

[AtticusFinch]

Great post!

You have described something that I see alot from former lds, and that is you studied your way out.

Personally, if I were you, I would write to SLC to have the reason you left changed from excommunication to resignation. I know there has been alot of hub bub about that over the past few years.

I know there was one case involving a woman and a protestant church. She formally resigned, but was later excommunicated. She took the church to court and won.

Something to think about.

I actually called the membership Department in SLC once to ask them what my excommunication said. They said that there was no reason given on the final form, but that they did have my letter asking for my name to be taken off the records. It is not really that important to me. All of this happened in 1989-1990.

 

[Dominic_Korozya]

Now, if you are still awake, I hope that answers your question.

I am still awake, in fact I was inbetween laughing and fainting by the end.

But why is this part below important?

So I did some research and discovered that JS did not have his “revelation” of the temple until AFTER he had become familiar with the Masonic Temple ceremonies!

?

I was a very faith ful Mormon. I had served a mission. I had served in the EQ Presidency. I was serving in the Bishopric. Every year, I tried to visit either Nauvoo or Palmyra. I had been to Palmyra a couple of times, but had never been during the Pageant because the Pageant was always during my law school exam week. My last year of law school, exams were a week earlier, so I was able to see the pageant. Unlike every other visit to Palmyra, this time, it was packed. And not just with LDS. There were a LOT of anti-LDS preaching and handing out tracts. I got into a debate with some of them and felt I did pretty well. I was determined, however, to become more knowledgable in order to be a better apologist. I vowed to read a LDS doctrinal or LDS history book every week. So, I did. I read all the time.

The more I read, the more I thought, “I was never taught this”. I read such teachings as “as man is…” and I read JS Journal, where he had several versions of the First Vision, I read book after book and read stuff I had never heard before. And these were LDS books! Then, one night, I was flipping channels and I saw John Ankerberg (or whatever his name is). He had a show on the Masons. So, I watched. They discussed the Masonic Temple Ceremonies and it was like I was watching a description of the Mormon Temple Ceremonies. I could not believe the Masons had stolen from us! So I did some research and discovered that JS did not have his “revelation” of the temple until AFTER he had become familiar with the Masonic Temple ceremonies!

Are you sure that this information was correct? Maybe Joseph Smith did have his revelation beforehand?

The more I studied the old books, the more I began to doubt. Finally, I asked to be released from my callings until I could sort it all out. Once I did that, harrasment started. Mormons would call me at midnight to tell me I was going to hell because I had committed the one unforgiveable sin. They would see me in a store and mock me. It got really bad.

This is due to individual sins of people. This should not effect how you see the church itself.

Then, one night, some LDS tried to kidnap my children and send them to Idaho because I was no longer a fit parent. One of them ended up in the hospital, the police were called. It got ugly. The police refused to arrest me for assault, but wanted me to pursue charges against him for attempted kidnapping. I worked for a judge. I was his bailiff/law clerk. The next day, he heard about it and he took me downstairs to see the District Attorney. They tried to talk me into pressing charges, but by then, I was afraid. I could not be home all the time and my wife did not speak English. I was afraid of retribution, so I refused. I sent a letter to the Stake President asking my name to be taken from the Church Records. In response, I got a letter from the Stake President calling me to a Church Court. The charges were speaking against the Church. Apparently, I was not even allowed to discuss my issues with my wife. I did not attend. I then got a letter excomunicating me. We left the area a few months later after I passed the bar exam.

This is a crime? This is news to me.

For many years, I hated the LDS Church (though still loved my mission experience). Then, a few years ago, the hatred went away. Now and then, I attend a Sac meeting. I watch General Conference now and then. I even considered going back.

What is your biggest objection though? It would be interesting to know.

But, I could never get passed the doctrinal issues and the whole “apostasy” thing.

Why not? Just read below the following quote;

For there to be an Apostasy, Jesus would have to be a liar, very weak, and/or very cruel.

Not particularly, salvation comes from acknowledging Jesus as you Lord and savior. So Jesus did not really abandon us as such. But He needs a church on earth for many reasons.

I love much about the LDS Church: The commeraderie, FHE, Home Teaching, no smoking or drinoing (I have never smokes or drank alcohol). There is much to like. But without THE authority, I could not go back.

The churches are a community of their own.

 

[why_me]

Do you have anything not from a Mormon Magazine or Mormon Apologist (Nibley) who was accused of raping his daughter?

As you know, anyone can make an accusation. But is the accusation true. Perhaps not. She should have made the accusation when Nibley was alive and well and then he could defend himself. But…such was not the case.

You see atticus, my abraham post was in response to a drive by a catholic poster made implying that mormons are stupid because as everyone knows the JSP was actually the book of the dead. I proved him wrong. But I don’t think that we will hear from him again.

 

[why_me]

Before making assumptions, try reading the profile.

I still have difficulty telling you guys apart. You speak with one voice. So did both of you put me on ignore? Was the decision made by the both of you? Was their any disagreement? Any discussion? Interesting to know.

 

[AtticusFinch]

[Originally Posted by AtticusFinch
Now, if you are still awake, I hope that answers your question.

I am still awake, in fact I was inbetween laughing and fainting by the end.

[COLOR=“Blue”]I am glad you find the attempted kidnapping of children so humorous. Gives me insight into your character. You ask an question, I give an honest answer and you mock me? That also gives me insight into your character.

But why is this part below important?

Quote:
So I did some research and discovered that JS did not have his “revelation” of the temple until AFTER he had become familiar with the Masonic Temple ceremonies!

?
Because it had be told to me that Joseph received all the ceremony from God. It appears he did not. It appears it was copied from masonic Rituals. Now, had I been taught that Joseph was led to the Masons and after seeing the temple ceremony, he was told by God that the true Ceremony would come from that, I would not have found the whole thing so dishonest.

Are you sure that this information was correct? Maybe Joseph Smith did have his revelation beforehand?

According to what I read, he didn’t. I also spoke to Dean Jesse about this (was Church Historian in SLC) and he confirmed.

This is due to individual sins of people. This should not effect how you see the church itself.

I agree. Though, at that time, the conduct of those members reflected horribly on the Church

Quote:
Then, one night, some LDS tried to kidnap my children and send them to Idaho because I was no longer a fit parent. One of them ended up in the hospital, the police were called. It got ugly. The police refused to arrest me for assault, but wanted me to pursue charges against him for attempted kidnapping. I worked for a judge. I was his bailiff/law clerk. The next day, he heard about it and he took me downstairs to see the District Attorney. They tried to talk me into pressing charges, but by then, I was afraid. I could not be home all the time and my wife did not speak English. I was afraid of retribution, so I refused. I sent a letter to the Stake President asking my name to be taken from the Church Records. In response, I got a letter from the Stake President calling me to a Church Court. The charges were speaking against the Church. Apparently, I was not even allowed to discuss my issues with my wife. I did not attend. I then got a letter excomunicating me. We left the area a few months later after I passed the bar exam.

This is a crime? This is news to me.

Yes, attempted kidnapping is a crime. They had my children (under the guise of babysitting) and investigation revealed they had tickets purchased to SLC. Anyway, look it up, attempted kidnapping is a crime. Hard to believe that is news to you

Quote:
For many years, I hated the LDS Church (though still loved my mission experience). Then, a few years ago, the hatred went away. Now and then, I attend a Sac meeting. I watch General Conference now and then. I even considered going back.

What is your biggest objection though? It would be interesting to know.

Not a chance. I took the time and effort to be honest and forthcoming to an earlier question, and you mocked me for it. I see what you are now.

Quote:
But, I could never get passed the doctrinal issues and the whole “apostasy” thing.

Why not?

Because For there to be an Apostasy, Jesus would have to be a liar, very weak, and/or very cruel.

Quote:
For there to be an Apostasy, Jesus would have to be a liar, very weak, and/or very cruel.

Not particularly, salvation comes from acknowledging Jesus as you Lord and savior. So Jesus did not really abandon us as such. But He needs a church on earth for many reasons.

Wrong. For there to be an Apostasy, Jesus, who said the gates of hell would never prevail, would have to be a liar. Additionally, if Jesus could not keep His Church from failing, he would have to be very weak. And, assuming Christ knew everytrhing, He would have known the Church would fail in a mere few years, yet, knowing that, He sent his best friends out to die horrible deaths in vain. That is very cruel.

Quote:
I love much about the LDS Church: The commeraderie, FHE, Home Teaching, no smoking or drinoing (I have never smokes or drank alcohol). There is much to like. But without THE authority, I could not go back.

The churches are a community of their own.

Some more than others.

 

[AtticusFinch]

As you know, anyone can make an accusation. But is the accusation true.

She says it is. Who are you to say she is lying?

Perhaps not.

But perhaps so

She should have made the accusation when Nibley was alive and well and then he could defend himself. But…such was not the case.

You know very little about the victims of sexual crimes. As a former prosecutor, most victims never come forward, especially daughters. It is common for them to finally come forward when they no longer feel fear, often when the perpetrator is no longer in a position to harm them.

You see atticus, my abraham post was in response to a drive by a catholic poster made implying that mormons are stupid because as everyone knows the JSP was actually the book of the dead. I proved him wrong. But I don’t think that we will hear from him again.

I do not think you proved him wrong. You used LDS sources to substantiate an LDS claim. That is like Ford making some comments against Chevy and then, using Ford sources, making th its point, then, claiming that they proved themselves correct about Chevy using their Ford sources.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Weird, I just read Martha (Dibley) Beck’s Leaving the Saints last week.

She claims physiological evidence of pre-pubescent rape–and near relatives are the most likely suspect.

She also claimed in the same book that a research assistant (to Hugh Dibley) told her that her father was a consistent academic fraud when it came to Mormon history. Now that IS something that could be checked up on.

 

[why_me]

Weird, I just read Martha (Dibley) Beck’s Leaving the Saints last week.

She claims physiological evidence of pre-pubescent rape–and near relatives are the most likely suspect.

She also claimed in the same book that a research assistant (to Hugh Dibley) told her that her father was a consistent academic fraud when it came to Mormon history. Now that IS something that could be checked up on.

It is all basically a dead issue now. Nothing came from the accusations. Unfortunately, atticus finch has an agenda and so, he brings it back up in an attempt to sidetrack my post about the JSP. He didn’t.

en.fairmormon.org/Hugh_Nibley/Abuse_charges

Abuse Charges
Martha Nibley Beck is the daughter of well-known LDS scholar Hugh Nibley. After writing a book in which they described how to renounce homosexuality through the gospel, Beck and her husband, John C. Beck, eventually ‘came out of the closet’ and announced that John was gay and Martha was a lesbian. They have since divorced.

Beck has more recently gained notoriety for her accusations that she was sexually molested by her father. The Nibley family strongly disputes this, and Beck has been roundly denounced by her ex-husband and others for what they claim is her book’s misrepresentation of facts. Beck’s tale has also been challenged because of its involvement with recovered memories of abuse.

 

[why_me]

I do not think you proved him wrong. You used LDS sources to substantiate an LDS claim. COLOR]

You just need to read the Improvement Area from that time. I proved him wrong.

 

[AtticusFinch]

It is all basically a dead issue now. Nothing came from the accusations. Unfortunately, atticus finch has an agenda and so, he brings it back up in an attempt to sidetrack my post about the JSP. He didn’t.

No, I have no agenda. And just because it was hushed down to a dead issue does not mean it did not happen. It is a dead issue because the perp is dead. What else can happen? There can;t be an investigation and trial. The victim stands by her story.
en.fairmormon.org/Hugh_Nibley/Abuse_charges

Abuse Charges
Martha Nibley Beck is the daughter of well-known LDS scholar Hugh Nibley. After writing a book in which they described how to renounce homosexuality through the gospel, Beck and her husband, John C. Beck, eventually ‘came out of the closet’ and announced that John was gay and Martha was a lesbian. They have since divorced.

Beck has more recently gained notoriety for her accusations that she was sexually molested by her father. The Nibley family strongly disputes this, and Beck has been roundly denounced by her ex-husband and others for what they claim is her book’s misrepresentation of facts. Beck’s tale has also been challenged because of its involvement with recovered memories of abuse.

lol…as a prosecutor, I saw it happen all the time for other siblings and even the mother of a child victim to say nothing ever happened and that the child lied. Yet, time and time again, the accusations were proven correct despite the family saying it didn’'t. So, I am not impressed by siblings doing all the can to protect their status as children of the famous Hugh Nibley. Much better than being remembered as the kids of High, the child rapist…

 

[AtticusFinch]

You just need to read the Improvement Area from that time. I proved him wrong.

lol…you are so darned CUTE! Using the Improvement Era, an LDS Church Magazine, to prove an LDS Church claim! Only you would use LDS writings to prove LDS writing are true, and be satisified with your proof…lololol

 

[dianaiad]

It is all basically a dead issue now. Nothing came from the accusations. Unfortunately, atticus finch has an agenda and so, he brings it back up in an attempt to sidetrack my post about the JSP. He didn’t.

en.fairmormon.org/Hugh_Nibley/Abuse_charges

Abuse Charges
Martha Nibley Beck is the daughter of well-known LDS scholar Hugh Nibley. After writing a book in which they described how to renounce homosexuality through the gospel, Beck and her husband, John C. Beck, eventually ‘came out of the closet’ and announced that John was gay and Martha was a lesbian. They have since divorced.

Beck has more recently gained notoriety for her accusations that she was sexually molested by her father. The Nibley family strongly disputes this, and Beck has been roundly denounced by her ex-husband and others for what they claim is her book’s misrepresentation of facts. Beck’s tale has also been challenged because of its involvement with recovered memories of abuse.

After reading John Beck’s response to Martha’s book, and knowing what ‘repressed memories’ can do, I tend to completely discount Martha’s accusation of molestation by her father. As in…it didn’t happen. Oh, I’m not saying that Martha is lying…she may well believe that it’s true.

But…

I have a cousin who, through exactly the sort of ‘therapy’ that Martha had to ‘unearth’ her memories, is convinced that my uncle molested her, frequently. She sat in my living room and recounted all the memories she had of the events.

The problem is that I was present at some of those dates and times that she mentioned, and the events she discribed simply did. not. happen. For at least TWO of the incidents she relates, her parents were in Australia, and SHE was living with me and my parents until we got her passport straightened out. Nobody molested her there, either.

When I pointed these things out to her, and even provided her PROOF by way of tickets, dates, times and witnesses, she simply accused me of being part of the conspiracy. Yeah, right…we are within a week of being the same age, but I was part of the giant conspiracy to allow her father to molest her.

Her father died a few months ago, heart-broken at the estrangement this caused. The man was not a child molester. In fact, I know that he would rather have died than harm one of his children in any way.

When I see these accusations of molestation made by people as a result of ‘restored memories,’ I am forcibly reminded of the McMartin Pre-School affair and the Salem Witch trials, and I discount 'em all, UNLESS there is some cooborating evidence. In the case of Nibley, as it was in the case of my uncle, there simply is none–and in fact there is plenty of evidence to prove that the accusations are not only false, but absolutely impossible.

…but you’ll never convince my cousin, you’ll never convince Martha—and you will never convince any anti-Mormon. Why? In the case of the women, false memories feel just like ‘true’ ones; they were molested, but in their case, they were molested by their therapists. In the case of the anti, anything that can possibly be considered to shed a negative light on their targets is grist for the mill. They really don’t care about accuracy or fairness—that’s part of the definition of “anti-” rather than 'critic."

 

[RebeccaJ]

Her own body has physical evidence which supports her memories. Someone abused her. Also, her memories were not recovered in therapy sessions. She sought therapy because of the memories.

Comments made by family members, including her own mother, support that she was abused by her father.

But of course, anything that doesn’t paint a mormon apostles in the brightest light is “antimormon”.

leavingthesaints.com/settingrecord.htm

 

[why_me]

lol…you are so darned CUTE! Using the Improvement Era, an LDS Church Magazine, to prove an LDS Church claim! Only you would use LDS writings to prove LDS writing are true, and be satisified with your proof…lololol

You will need to read what Nibley wrote in the Improvement Era. I countered the poster’s claim that the entire JSP was the Book of the Dead. That is all. We don’t have all the JSP and that is the problem.

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri/Church_disclosure_of_%22Book_of_the_Dead%22

I provided the above link to prove that that lds was quick to claim what was on the fragments discovered on the JSP.

The LDS church stated in their magazine The Improvement Era:

“The largest parts of the…papyri in possession of the Church consists of fragments from the Egyptian Book of the Dead…” (pp. 56-57)

Lest the reader miss this claim in the small print, it was reprinted in large bold type across two pages

And we also have this about the book of abraham:

Oversimplifying the translation issues

The issues surrounding the translation of the Egyptian papyri that resulted in the Book of Abraham are much more complex than critics would like us to believe. Foremost, it is significant to realize that we don’t have all the papyri that were originally owned by Joseph. Of the five scrolls originally owned by Joseph, only eleven fragments of two scrolls have survived—one of which is an Egyptian Sensen text containing the vignette for Facsimile 1 from the LDS Book of Abraham. Basically, we don’t know exactly what was missing, so we can’t say for certain that Joseph Smith’s papyri collection didn’t contain a document that could translate into the Book of Abraham.

But why, some might ask, would a Book of Abraham be present among ancient Egyptian funerary scrolls? We know from other ancient documents that sometimes scrolls with different material were attached together. Some ancient copies of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, for example, have been found to contain a variety of other non-funerary texts including stories similar to the sacrifice of Abraham (involving different personalities), temple rituals, and more. Yale-trained, professional Egyptologist Dr. John Gee estimates that about 40% of known Sensen texts have other texts attached to them.

Some Egyptian papyri, for example, contain Egyptian instructions on one side and Semitic writings on the back side—in one case Psalms chapters 20–55. One Egyptian temple archive (with an extensive collection of Egyptian rituals), provides an early copy of the “Prayer of Jacob” and two copies of the “Eighth Book of Moses” with a discussion of the initiation into the temple at Jerusalem. Both Moses and Abraham are mentioned in this collection and the most commonly invoked deity is Jehovah.

Finally, we know that ancient Israelites sometimes used Egyptian symbols to convey religious teachings. Many Biblical scholars, for instance, believe that an ancient Egyptian book—the Instructions of Amenemope—may have been the source for portions of the biblical book of Proverbs. An ancient Testament of Abraham also seems to have a connection to the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

It is not unlikely—in fact it seems plausible in light of other documentary discoveries—that an ancient Book of Abraham was attached to the Egyptian papyri owned by Joseph Smith. Properly interpreting the Egyptian elements in the Facsimiles may well require that we understand how Jewish authors understood and adapted such elements.

The critics’ “irrefutable evidence” is anything but.

en.fairmormon.org/Search_for_…ook_of_Abraham

Life is not so simple for people who wish to understand the origins of the Book of Abraham.

 

[why_me]

Her own body has physical evidence which supports her memories. Someone abused her. Also, her memories were not recovered in therapy sessions. She sought therapy because of the memories.

Comments made by family members, including her own mother, support that she was abused by her father.

But of course, anything that doesn’t paint a mormon apostles in the brightest light is “antimormon”.

leavingthesaints.com/settingrecord.htm

And this has nothing to do with the topic of the OP. The Beck issue became a dead issue and nothing happened against th reputation of Nibley and nothing was proven.

You and Atticus can start a new thread about Nibley. I have sometimes been accused of thread derailment… but this takes the cake. And yet, there is no accusation of thread derailment when done by you guys.

 

[AtticusFinch]

After reading John Beck’s response to Martha’s book, and knowing what ‘repressed memories’ can do, I tend to completely discount Martha’s accusation of molestation by her father. As in…it didn’t happen. Oh, I’m not saying that Martha is lying…she may well believe that it’s true.

But…

I have a cousin who, through exactly the sort of ‘therapy’ that Martha had to ‘unearth’ her memories, is convinced that my uncle molested her, frequently. She sat in my living room and recounted all the memories she had of the events.

The problem is that I was present at some of those dates and times that she mentioned, and the events she discribed simply did. not. happen. For at least TWO of the incidents she relates, her parents were in Australia, and SHE was living with me and my parents until we got her passport straightened out. Nobody molested her there, either.

When I pointed these things out to her, and even provided her PROOF by way of tickets, dates, times and witnesses, she simply accused me of being part of the conspiracy. Yeah, right…we are within a week of being the same age, but I was part of the giant conspiracy to allow her father to molest her.

Her father died a few months ago, heart-broken at the estrangement this caused. The man was not a child molester. In fact, I know that he would rather have died than harm one of his children in any way.

When I see these accusations of molestation made by people as a result of ‘restored memories,’ I am forcibly reminded of the McMartin Pre-School affair and the Salem Witch trials, and I discount 'em all, UNLESS there is some cooborating evidence. In the case of Nibley, as it was in the case of my uncle, there simply is none–and in fact there is plenty of evidence to prove that the accusations are not only false, but absolutely impossible.

…but you’ll never convince my cousin, you’ll never convince Martha—and you will never convince any anti-Mormon. Why? In the case of the women, false memories feel just like ‘true’ ones; they were molested, but in their case, they were molested by their therapists. In the case of the anti, anything that can possibly be considered to shed a negative light on their targets is grist for the mill. They really don’t care about accuracy or fairness—that’s part of the definition of “anti-” rather than 'critic."

Big surprise. She does not believe the victim, she believes the Mormon Icon.

But, after 20 years of being an attorney and seeing both sides of this issue, I tend to believe the victims

 

[AtticusFinch]

You will need to read what Nibley wrote in the Improvement Era. I countered the poster’s claim that the entire JSP was the Book of the Dead. That is all. We don’t have all the JSP and that is the problem.

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri/Church_disclosure_of_%22Book_of_the_Dead%22

I provided the above link to prove that that lds was quick to claim what was on the fragments discovered on the JSP.

The LDS church stated in their magazine The Improvement Era:

“The largest parts of the…papyri in possession of the Church consists of fragments from the Egyptian Book of the Dead…” (pp. 56-57)

Lest the reader miss this claim in the small print, it was reprinted in large bold type across two pages

And we also have this about the book of abraham:

Oversimplifying the translation issues

The issues surrounding the translation of the Egyptian papyri that resulted in the Book of Abraham are much more complex than critics would like us to believe. Foremost, it is significant to realize that we don’t have all the papyri that were originally owned by Joseph. Of the five scrolls originally owned by Joseph, only eleven fragments of two scrolls have survived—one of which is an Egyptian Sensen text containing the vignette for Facsimile 1 from the LDS Book of Abraham. Basically, we don’t know exactly what was missing, so we can’t say for certain that Joseph Smith’s papyri collection didn’t contain a document that could translate into the Book of Abraham.

But why, some might ask, would a Book of Abraham be present among ancient Egyptian funerary scrolls? We know from other ancient documents that sometimes scrolls with different material were attached together. Some ancient copies of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, for example, have been found to contain a variety of other non-funerary texts including stories similar to the sacrifice of Abraham (involving different personalities), temple rituals, and more. Yale-trained, professional Egyptologist Dr. John Gee estimates that about 40% of known Sensen texts have other texts attached to them.

Some Egyptian papyri, for example, contain Egyptian instructions on one side and Semitic writings on the back side—in one case Psalms chapters 20–55. One Egyptian temple archive (with an extensive collection of Egyptian rituals), provides an early copy of the “Prayer of Jacob” and two copies of the “Eighth Book of Moses” with a discussion of the initiation into the temple at Jerusalem. Both Moses and Abraham are mentioned in this collection and the most commonly invoked deity is Jehovah.

Finally, we know that ancient Israelites sometimes used Egyptian symbols to convey religious teachings. Many Biblical scholars, for instance, believe that an ancient Egyptian book—the Instructions of Amenemope—may have been the source for portions of the biblical book of Proverbs. An ancient Testament of Abraham also seems to have a connection to the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

It is not unlikely—in fact it seems plausible in light of other documentary discoveries—that an ancient Book of Abraham was attached to the Egyptian papyri owned by Joseph Smith. Properly interpreting the Egyptian elements in the Facsimiles may well require that we understand how Jewish authors understood and adapted such elements.

The critics’ “irrefutable evidence” is anything but.

en.fairmormon.org/Search_for_…ook_of_Abraham

Life is not so simple for people who wish to understand the origins of the Book of Abraham.

lolol…you are STILL so darned cute! Using Mormon Apologists in Mormon Mags to prove Mormon positions. lolol…

You have a lot to learn about proof and credible witnesses

 

[why_me]

lolol…you are STILL so darned cute! Using Mormon Apologists in Mormon Mags to prove Mormon positions. lolol…

You have a lot to learn about proof and credible witnesses

So, catholics should not depend on the catholic answers websites for answers?

 

[Dominic_Korozya]

Because it had be told to me that Joseph received all the ceremony from God. It appears he did not. It appears it was copied from masonic Rituals. Now, had I been taught that Joseph was led to the Masons and after seeing the temple ceremony, he was told by God that the true Ceremony would come from that, I would not have found the whole thing so dishonest.