Criticism of Joseph Smith

[RebeccaJ]

I pray more are sifted out.

 

[wussup]

nope. it is a fact. Or do you deny what I posted?

? The single, most commonly used tactic of a bigot is to argue against a premise by attacking the source in a way not relative to the argument. Fish thrower.

 

[wussup]

Before making assumptions, try reading the profile.

Oh yes, I remember yuse guys. So, how do we know if we are talking to the Catholic side or the rebellious side?

 

[wussup]

Before making assumptions, try reading the profile.

Happy for what you have?

Thank God
Thank a Veteran

And your welcome.

 

[wussup]

Really? Is what I posted false?

Do you know what an ad hominem is?

 

[AtticusFinch]

? The single, most commonly used tactic of a bigot is to argue against a premise by attacking the source in a way not relative to the argument. Fish thrower.

The single, most commonly used tactic of a dishonest Mormon is to see the truth in a comment and try to deflect by claiming the person is a bigot and a fish thrower and never answer the question asked…for example, “do you deny what I posted?”

 

[AtticusFinch]

Do you know what an ad hominem is?

do you know what dodging the question and not answering is?

 

[wussup]

I was a very faith ful Mormon. I had served a mission. I had served in the EQ Presidency. I was serving in the Bishopric. Every year, I tried to visit either Nauvoo or Palmyra. I had been to Palmyra a couple of times, but had never been during the Pageant because the Pageant was always during my law school exam week. My last year of law school, exams were a week earlier, so I was able to see the pageant. Unlike every other visit to Palmyra, this time, it was packed. And not just with LDS. There were a LOT of anti-LDS preaching and handing out tracts. I got into a debate with some of them and felt I did pretty well. I was determined, however, to become more knowledgable in order to be a better apologist. I vowed to read a LDS doctrinal or LDS history book every week. So, I did. I read all the time.

The more I read, the more I thought, “I was never taught this”. I read such teachings as “as man is…” and I read JS Journal, where he had several versions of the First Vision, I read book after book and read stuff I had never heard before. And these were LDS books! Then, one night, I was flipping channels and I saw John Ankerberg (or whatever his name is). He had a show on the Masons. So, I watched. They discussed the Masonic Temple Ceremonies and it was like I was watching a description of the Mormon Temple Ceremonies. I could not believe the Masons had stolen from us! So I did some research and discovered that JS did not have his “revelation” of the temple until AFTER he had become familiar with the Masonic Temple ceremonies!

The more I studied the old books, the more I began to doubt. Finally, I asked to be released from my callings until I could sort it all out. Once I did that, harassment started. Mormons would call me at midnight to tell me I was going to hell because I had committed the one unforgiveable sin. They would see me in a store and mock me. It got really bad.

Then, one night, some LDS tried to kidnap my children and send them to Idaho because I was no longer a fit parent. One of them ended up in the hospital, the police were called. It got ugly. The police refused to arrest me for assault, but wanted me to pursue charges against him for attempted kidnapping. I worked for a judge. I was his bailiff/law clerk. The next day, he heard about it and he took me downstairs to see the District Attorney. They tried to talk me into pressing charges, but by then, I was afraid. I could not be home all the time and my wife did not speak English. I was afraid of retribution, so I refused. I sent a letter to the Stake President asking my name to be taken from the Church Records. In response, I got a letter from the Stake President calling me to a Church Court. The charges were speaking against the Church. Apparently, I was not even allowed to discuss my issues with my wife. I did not attend. I then got a letter excomunicating me. We left the area a few months later after I passed the bar exam.

For many years, I hated the LDS Church (though still loved my mission experience). Then, a few years ago, the hatred went away. Now and then, I attend a Sac meeting. I watch General Conference now and then. I even considered going back. But, I could never get passed the doctrinal issues and the whole “apostasy” thing. For there to be an Apostasy, Jesus would have to be a liar, very weak, and/or very cruel.

I love much about the LDS Church: The commeraderie, FHE, Home Teaching, no smoking or drinoing (I have never smokes or drank alcohol). There is much to like. But without THE authority, I could not go back.

Now, if you are still awake, I hope that answers your question.

Your story does not jibe with my experience, nor with Church policy.

1. Any missionary worth his salt would be familiar with all of the anti-mormon literature. There was not one single day of my 730 days I was on mission I was not subjected to some type of anti-mormon non-sense. I have never even thought to ask other RMs if this was their experience, but I cannot help but think it was. Furthermore as a Church Jurist, I find it difficult to believe you were unfamiliar with the various heresy’s. I have not been a member of a Bishopric, but I was a counselor to a small Branch in Richard’s Bay. We certainly saw our share of this. Therefore your protestation that you thought you “did pretty well” tells me otherwise. Then, you claim to have only just relatively recently read some of the more controversial church authors, rubbish.
2. The claimed response also sounds ridiculous. First, no one but a lunatic will harass you by calling at midnight to threaten your salvation. Furthermore, any ‘Mormon’ knows the unforgivable sin is denying the Holy Ghost. According to LDS Theology, there is no way you could experience this. If you were really a RM and a member of the Bishopric, you would know this.
3. Ok, I could see why they might mock you. You are a rather easy target.
4. No Church official would sanction taking away your children EVER. The consequences for this would be catastrophic for the Church Official who did. The Church will not even let missionaries teach the Gospel to a family if the Father or Mother objects. The most they would do would be call the local child protective services if they thought this a risk. However, Church members are people too. They can be both rational and irrational, just like any other demographic. Again, if you were a real RM or a member of the Bishopric, you would know this.
5. Your claims regarding not filing charges also sounds bogus. Given that you were a member of both the Church and civil judiciary, I find it ludicrous to believe you refused to file charges against the claimed kidnappers. Also, NO Church court will tolerate such nonsense, as you should no as a member of the Church Court.

You opened the story. I am giving a reasoned believe as to why I don’t believe you.

 

[wussup]

I still have difficulty telling you guys apart. You speak with one voice. So did both of you put me on ignore? Was the decision made by the both of you? Was their any disagreement? Any discussion? Interesting to know.

Kinda feels like I am talking to my ex-wife. I never knew if I was talking to the evil half or the good half. Without the evil.

 

[wussup]

Some people just don’t understand the concept of staying on topic. See my earlier post.

1. When confronted with things they cannot or do not want to go into, their either try to divert the conversation, or just quit posting."

Do you have anything not from a Mormon Magazine or Mormon Apologist (Nibley) who was accused of raping his daughter?

nope. it is a fact. Or do you deny what I posted?

Sigh, ok I’ll bite…Is what a fact or do I deny what you posted. Which should I deny, The ad hominem that the 'Mormon Magazine" (a magazine I am not familiar with) or the rape accusation? Speak plainly. I am an old irritable man and do not like beating around the bush.

 

[wussup]

do you know what dodging the question and not answering is?

er, yes, er no, er…ohhhh counselor, you got me! I did it with the candalabra in the basement on March 13th! Dude, what are you talking about?

 

[AtticusFinch]

Your story does not jibe with my experience, nor with Church policy.

1. Any missionary worth his salt would be familiar with all of the anti-mormon literature.

Really? Why? I was baptized in 1983. I was 23. A year later, I served my mission. I was 24. I had a college degree. I had a fiance’, and I had a job. I left it all to serve my mission. How would I have had a lot of contact with anti-LDS literature?

There was not one single day of my 730 days I was on mission I was not subjected to some type of anti-mormon non-sense. I have never even thought to ask other RMs if this was their experience, but I cannot help but think it was.

Did you serve in Honduras? There was not a lot of antis back in 1984 in Honduras. If there were, they would have been in the two big cities, not the small pueblos I served in. So, you are wrong, yet again.

Furthermore as a Church Jurist, I find it difficult to believe you were unfamiliar with the various heresy’s.

How in the world would I have come across them? I went from non-Mormon to returned missionary in three years. I went from there to a ward in a state with not a lot of LDS, even fewer RMs. Those of us who were RMs were given responsibility. You are wrong again.

I have not been a member of a Bishopric,

Go figure

but I was a counselor to a small Branch in Richard’s Bay. We certainly saw our share of this.

Perhaps things were different where I was in the late 1980s…

Therefore your protestation that you thought you “did pretty well” tells me otherwise.

No, what tells you otherwise is that you hate being wrong so you have to try to paint me as dishonest

Then, you claim to have only just relatively recently read some of the more controversial church authors, rubbish.

No, what you post is rubbish. I left the Church in 1989 and had nothing to do with it for many years. When Bushman came out with his book, an LDS friend of mine recommended it. Remember when I said Mormons had a tough time discerning truth? You just proved it

1. The claimed response also sounds ridiculous. First, no one but a lunatic will harass you by calling at midnight to threaten your salvation.

lol. Either you are lying, or you are incredibly stupid. I have told my story to other ex-LDS and they have claimed similar things happened to them. Try again.

Furthermore, any ‘Mormon’ knows the unforgivable sin is denying the Holy Ghost. According to LDS Theology, there is no way you could experience this. If you were really a RM and a member of the Bishopric, you would know this.

Ah, but that is the deal…they claimed I had the Holy Ghost and by leaving the Church, I was denying it. Or is that concept beyond your grasp?

1. Ok, I could see why they might mock you. You are a rather easy target.

Ah…spoken just like those LDS who kidnap children and kill innocent people.

1. No Church official would sanction taking away your children EVER. The consequences for this would be catastrophic for the Church Official who did.

Did I ever say it was sanctioned? In fact, I said it was bad members and was not something the Church would approve of…

The Church will not even let missionaries teach the Gospel to a family if the Father or Mother objects. The most they would do would be call the local child protective services if they thought this a risk. However, Church members are people too. They can be both rational and irrational, just like any other demographic. Again, if you were a real RM or a member of the Bishopric, you would know this.

read the papers, little one. I am not the first person who has experienced this. If you were honest and intelligent, you would know this

1. Your claims regarding not filing charges also sounds bogus. Given that you were a member of both the Church and civil judiciary, I find it ludicrous to believe you refused to file charges against the claimed kidnappers.

Are you daft? How is a law student part of the judiciary? I had my reasons, as I explained. But I will explain again. I was afraid. I was rarely home due to school and work. My wife could not speak English. I was agraid of what would happen when I was not home. Is that too far above you?

You opened the story. I am giving a reasoned believe as to why I don’t believe you.

Naaa…the reason you do not believe me is because you have shown how silly your beliefs are, so you need to attack to distract. If you would like, I will send you pictures from my mission. I will send you pics of my journal, pics of my Mission Plaque, a copy of my Patriarchal Blessing… Your choice, but you should apologize for bearing false witness against me and just drop this stupid line of defense.

 

[AtticusFinch]

Sigh, ok I’ll bite…Is what a fact or do I deny what you posted. Which should I deny, The ad hominem that the 'Mormon Magazine" (a magazine I am not familiar with) or the rape accusation? Speak plainly. I am an old irritable man and do not like beating around the bush.

I spoke plainly, and the only person who beats around the bush is you

 

[AtticusFinch]

Just for you, I made my profile pic a pic of me and my District (I was DL) in Talanga Honduras, 1985. I am the white guy. Once you have seen this pic, I will post a pic of me baptizing someone in a river. We never baptized outside unless we had to. In that instance, there was no water for the font, so we had to use a nearby river. I will then post a pic of the district I was in Siguatepeque Honduras. I will keep going until you are man enough to apologize.

Which means I will likely be posting pics awhile…

 

[wussup]

Originally Posted by wussup View Post

1. Any missionary worth his salt would be familiar with all of the anti-mormon literature.

Really? Why? I was baptized in 1983. I was 23. A year later, I served my mission. I was 24. I had a college degree. I had a fiance’, and I had a job. I left it all to serve my mission. How would I have had a lot of contact with anti-LDS literature?
I joined one year later, and went to RSA after I got out of the Navy.

Did you serve in Honduras? There was not a lot of antis back in 1984 in Honduras. If there were, they would have been in the two big cities, not the small pueblos I served in. So, you are wrong, yet again.

I cannot address the Anti’ attacks in 1984 in Honduras, having served in South Africa Cape Town Mission.

How in the world would I have come across them? I went from non-Mormon to returned missionary in three years. I went from there to a ward in a state with not a lot of LDS, even fewer RMs. Those of us who were RMs were given responsibility. You are wrong again.

And you never judged a heresy trial?

I have not been a member of a Bishopric,

Go figure

I am not a title seeker and have an abrasive personality. Not particularly difficult to figure out.

Therefore your protestation that you thought you “did pretty well” tells me otherwise.

No, what tells you otherwise is that you hate being wrong so you have to try to paint me as dishonest

Then, you claim to have only just relatively recently read some of the more controversial church authors, rubbish.

No, what you post is rubbish. I left the Church in 1989 and had nothing to do with it for many years. When Bushman came out with his book, an LDS friend of mine recommended it. Remember when I said Mormons had a tough time discerning truth? You just proved it

See, this is the kind of immature writing that puts my rubbish meter up. Which book are you referencing

1. The claimed response also sounds ridiculous. First, no one but a lunatic will harass you by calling at midnight to threaten your salvation.

lol. Either you are lying, or you are incredibly stupid. I have told my story to other ex-LDS and they have claimed similar things happened to them. Try again.

Again with the vitriol. Logically speaking, there are other options, for example your and other ex-LDS stories could be a shared memory implant of reading anti-Mormon literature. Or, it could be that a lunatic called you to harass you at midnight?

Furthermore, any ‘Mormon’ knows the unforgivable sin is denying the Holy Ghost. According to LDS Theology, there is no way you could experience this. If you were really a RM and a member of the Bishopric, you would know this.

Ah, but that is the deal…they claimed I had the Holy Ghost and by leaving the Church, I was denying it. Or is that concept beyond your grasp?

I am beginning to see a picture emerge. Denying the Holy Ghost as an unforgiveable sin is only possible to someone who has had their calling and election made sure. That is, their faith has become so complete they no longer have faith and then reject Christ as Lord and Savior. It is impossible for you to commit the unforgivable sin.

1. Ok, I could see why they might mock you. You are a rather easy target.

Ah…spoken just like those LDS who kidnap children and kill innocent people.Yeah. I am a kidnapper and a murderer. Now I see how your persona of a ‘kidnapper’ develops.

1. No Church official would sanction taking away your children EVER. The consequences for this would be catastrophic for the Church Official who did.

Did I ever say it was sanctioned? In fact, I said it was bad members and was not something the Church would approve of…I don’t see where you said that.

The Church will not even let missionaries teach the Gospel to a family if the Father or Mother objects. The most they would do would be call the local child protective services if they thought this a risk. However, Church members are people too. They can be both rational and irrational, just like any other demographic. Again, if you were a real RM or a member of the Bishopric, you would know this.

read the papers, little one. I am not the first person who has experienced this. If you were honest and intelligent, you would know thisHow condescending. What kind of lawyer are you?

1. Your claims regarding not filing charges also sounds bogus. Given that you were a member of both the Church and civil judiciary, I find it ludicrous to believe you refused to file charges against the claimed kidnappers.

Are you daft? How is a law student part of the judiciary? I had my reasons, as I explained. But I will explain again. I was afraid. I was rarely home due to school and work. My wife could not speak English. I was agraid of what would happen when I was not home. Is that too far above you?

Daft? You did say you were a law clerk. A law clerk is, “a person who provides assistance to a judge in researching issues before the court and in writing opinions. Law clerks are not court clerks or courtroom deputies, who are administrative staff for the court. Most law clerks are recent law school graduates who performed at or near the top of their class. Various studies have shown clerks to be influential in the formation of case law through their influence on judges’ decisions. Working as a law clerk generally opens up career opportunities.” So, are you lying about that or incompetent (in Atticus Finch speak)

 

[wussup]

Just for you, I made my profile pic a pic of me and my District (I was DL) in Talanga Honduras, 1985. I am the white guy. Once you have seen this pic, I will post a pic of me baptizing someone in a river. We never baptized outside unless we had to. In that instance, there was no water for the font, so we had to use a nearby river. I will then post a pic of the district I was in Siguatepeque Honduras. I will keep going until you are man enough to apologize.

Which means I will likely be posting pics awhile…

I will enjoy the picts. And no, I will not apologize because your rhetoric is so off the charts that my inferences from you ignorance of Church Theology and History is understandable.

 

[AtticusFinch]

Originally Posted by wussup View Post

I cannot address the Anti’ attacks in 1984 in Honduras, having served in South Africa Cape Town Mission.

Then apologize.

And you never judged a heresy trial?

Nope.

I have not been a member of a Bishopric,

Go figure

I am not a title seeker and have an abrasive personality. Not particularly difficult to figure out.

Nor was I…I guess someone deemed me worthy…and you…not so much

No, what you post is rubbish. I left the Church in 1989 and had nothing to do with it for many years. When Bushman came out with his book, an LDS friend of mine recommended it. Remember when I said Mormons had a tough time discerning truth? You just proved it

See, this is the kind of immature writing that puts my rubbish meter up. Which book are you referencing

No, your doubting just to doubt is immature. I was referencing Rough Stone Rolling.

1. The claimed response also sounds ridiculous. First, no one but a lunatic will harass you by calling at midnight to threaten your salvation.

lol. Either you are lying, or you are incredibly stupid. I have told my story to other ex-LDS and they have claimed similar things happened to them. Try again.

Again with the vitriol. Logically speaking, there are other options, for example your and other ex-LDS stories could be a shared memory implant of reading anti-Mormon literature. Or, it could be that a lunatic called you to harass you at midnight?

What do you expect? You all but called me a liar then act offended when I responded? And you were in the Navy? lol…I served in the Army…we were tougher

Furthermore, any ‘Mormon’ knows the unforgivable sin is denying the Holy Ghost. According to LDS Theology, there is no way you could experience this. If you were really a RM and a member of the Bishopric, you would know this.

Ah, but that is the deal…they claimed I had the Holy Ghost and by leaving the Church, I was denying it. Or is that concept beyond your grasp?

I am beginning to see a picture emerge. Denying the Holy Ghost as an unforgiveable sin is only possible to someone who has had their calling and election made sure. That is, their faith has become so complete they no longer have faith and then reject Christ as Lord and Savior. It is impossible for you to commit the unforgivable sin.

Perhaps…but that does not change what I was told

1. Ok, I could see why they might mock you. You are a rather easy target.

Ah…spoken just like those LDS who kidnap children and kill innocent people.Yeah. I am a kidnapper and a murderer. Now I see how your persona of a ‘kidnapper’ develops.

Nope…but when you make comments like you made, you invite them back. Deal with it or grow up

1. No Church official would sanction taking away your children EVER. The consequences for this would be catastrophic for the Church Official who did.

Did I ever say it was sanctioned? In fact, I said it was bad members and was not something the Church would approve of…I don’t see where you said that.

The Church will not even let missionaries teach the Gospel to a family if the Father or Mother objects. The most they would do would be call the local child protective services if they thought this a risk. However, Church members are people too. They can be both rational and irrational, just like any other demographic. Again, if you were a real RM or a member of the Bishopric, you would know this.

read the papers, little one. I am not the first person who has experienced this. If you were honest and intelligent, you would know thisHow condescending. What kind of lawyer are you?

a very good one. And I used the SAME language you did…I did it intentionally. If what I said was condescending, then you should watch what you say

1. Your claims regarding not filing charges also sounds bogus. Given that you were a member of both the Church and civil judiciary, I find it ludicrous to believe you refused to file charges against the claimed kidnappers.

Are you daft? How is a law student part of the judiciary? I had my reasons, as I explained. But I will explain again. I was afraid. I was rarely home due to school and work. My wife could not speak English. I was agraid of what would happen when I was not home. Is that too far above you?

Daft? You did say you were a law clerk. A law clerk is, “a person who provides assistance to a judge in researching issues before the court and in writing opinions. Law clerks are not court clerks or courtroom deputies, who are administrative staff for the court. Most law clerks are recent law school graduates who performed at or near the top of their class. Various studies have shown clerks to be influential in the formation of case law through their influence on judges’ decisions. Working as a law clerk generally opens up career opportunities.” So, are you lying about that or incompetent (in Atticus Finch speak)

lol…I said I was a law student. Learn to read and get back with me. My job as a law student was to work as a bailiff and law clerk. I was not a member of the bar, so was not considered part of the judiciary. lol…you amuse me

I made an offer…are you running away?

 

[AtticusFinch]

I will enjoy the picts. And no, I will not apologize because your rhetoric is so off the charts that my inferences from you ignorance of Church Theology and History is understandable.

ah…like I said…you are not a man of honor. You were proven wrong, and you will not apologize. Bear false witness, and you could care less. My “rhetoric” is fact and you cannot deal with it.

Figures.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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