Criticism of the Clergy

[PJH_74]

We should give them the benefit of the doubt, especially as to their pastoral decisions, which are often questioned here. Many people on here think they know more than the clergy and make rash judgments like “that Priest was WRONG” (and worse! I have seen some nasty stuff) based on an internet post.

Yes!! My spouse, as I’ve said before, is a Lutheran Pastor. I’m aware of much of the background drama. If a church has 100 members you’ll have 100 opinions. There are always church bullies who want what they want and will cajole, gossip, and intimidate to get it. One pastor who server prior to my spouse had a gun pulled on him. There are the family issues that clergy aware of, some of it fairly grievous. There are the worriers. There is the expectation of being neutral on just about anything and no anger shown. You have to minister to people who may not like you or the other way around. Female Pastors had it even more difficult. I know ones that have been felt up. They are expected to not “too pretty” lest men are distracted by her. Some are told their church is going to hell because they are the Pastor. Then there is just straight up misogyny.

 

[Canvas]

One pastor who server prior to my spouse had a gun pulled on him.

That is insane.

 

[PJH_74]

That is insane.

Even worse that person was a cop. Fortunately he stopped going there years ago, but amazingly he somehow became interested in joining this small church’s Facebook page. My spouse was also heckled during a sermon for comparing BLM (there had just been a killing of a Police Chief by a minority with a criminal record and this area is full of cops who live just within Chicago city limits) to the Parkland School Massacre. Apparently not having a previous criminal record makes a cop worth 17 plus students.

 

[dochawk]

Yes!! My spouse, as I’ve said before, is a Lutheran Pastor. I’m aware of much of the background drama. If a church has 100 members you’ll have 100 opinions.

Well, that’s about 70 less members than it takes baptists to produce that many opinions



[years ago, a methodist theologian filling in for my baptist professor at the protestant thought class at my jesuit school explained to us that when three baptists are gathered in His name, there are at least four denominations present . . .]

hawk

 

[Crusader13]

I think this is a little too strong.
You have objectively universalised the boldened words instead of more openly and humbly saying its just your personal view - suggesting there is nothing more to discuss and its just a matter of a higher authority censuring the priest.

In fact you may be mistaken on this point.
It is not your role or within your competence to make such a theological or pastoral judgement re your own PP.

It is your role to report him to your bishop if you have significant concerns … and leave it to him to decide. You may in fact be mistaken in your views.

I wasn’t implying that any formal correction or censuring needs to be done by whomever the layman is confronting the priest. I recommend talking to the priest first so that any misunderstandings can be cleared and reporting said priest to a bishop might not even be necessary.

That being said, I don’t understand your points on how I universalized his statements or wasn’t humble or competent in my understanding of what the priest said.

I did make a leap by grouping any and all clergy who make statements, especially from the pulpit, where they contradict Church teaching and correction is needed. The sad truth however, is that clergy are human and many hold their own views on Church teachings and those views can and often times influence what they say in public and private settings.

And sometimes simply reporting a clergy member to a superior doesn’t result in the necessary corrections, so it is incumbent on us, the laity to speak up and let others know when a member of the clergy is saying things that aren’t true to the faith.

 

[PJH_74]

I predict this thread will descend into this or this article supports my (no comment to the OP) preconceived notion of how things have gone south. I also predict little self-reflection.

 

[Crusader13]

You may have missed my observation.
You do seem to assume that you and God are one in judging who needs pastoral/theological correcting.

Once you’ve personally taken the priest aside, then raised it with the bishop if that is fruitless and you still believe you are correct, then there is nothing more to be done by a layman except review whether or not its you who was mistaken I would think.

I have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion that I view myself as being one with God in judging a priest. I was merely pointing out that there are instances where clergy need to clarify their remarks and it is not inappropriate to confront a member of the clergy on such issues or even critiquing their remarks.

And using the scenario showing a bishop agreeing with a priest does not make the bishop the final arbiter in determining whether the priest is theologically correct.

 

[Reuben_J]

And using the scenario showing a bishop agreeing with a priest does not make the bishop the final arbiter in determining whether the priest is theologically correct.

By saying so, maybe you had some experience in this. Can you share a real example of how the priest was theologically incorrect and perhaps when his Bishop supported this error?

 

[Crusader13]

By saying so, maybe you had some experience in this. Can you share a real example of how the priest was theologically incorrect and perhaps when his Bishop supported this error?

The example I gave was from my own personal experience having heard the priest say what he did in reference to receiving communion. I don’t know if the bishop would agree with his remarks because I’ve yet to personally speak with our bishop.

But for arguments sake, if my bishop were to agree with the priest, that would not give me piece of mind.

 

[Reuben_J]

Yes, where a priest is openly giving unconventional direction in a Sacrament, it indeed can cause great distress to the Catholic faithful. It is certainly common that many Catholics are unhappy and even scandalised with deliberate error and abuse, especially in the Sacrament, and the one you mentioned is a very pertinent one.

The question is how do we deal with this. Probably a comcerned Catholic can talk to the priest first and see how it comes about. A follow up to the Bishop is certainly in order if it is not resolved there.

Having said that, from where I come from it is unthinkable that a priest would allow Communion to Lutherans or pronounced it publicly that Lutherans can receive Holy Communion.

The extent of errand priests today committing liberty to change the rules in the Sacraments, if really there are, I have heard only from secondary sources but haven’t seen one myself, that’s why I asked you, is really an attack on the Lord’s Church.

 

[Crusader13]

I agree Reuben_J, and unfortunately I don’t have an answer as to how we deal with this dilemma. Naturally, I don’t expect the priest who made this comment to be removed from the parish and defrocked. If anything, I would suspect that he will be told to refrain from voicing his personal views and opinions while conducting Mass. I also don’t believe that this issue is centered around one priest, because I’ve attended other services at this parish where another priest also made a questionable remark in reference to the Church and it’s views on women in the Church. So I truly believe that there are other parishes and Catholic communities who subscribe to similar beliefs and they are well received by members of the laity who support this line of reasoning.

I think the end result is that members of the laity who find themselves in similar situations probably just leave their parish and find another. I don’t feel that one should dismiss the reality that the Church is in dire straits at the moment and I think the laity have lost a lot of faith in the clergy to, for lack of a better word, police their own. If Bishops and Cardinals have been so complacent in dealing with the accusations of homosexuality and pedophilia in their own dioceses, than how can one expect them to be concerned when a priest makes a remark that cause others to feel scandalized.

It may sound like I’m being cynical and that I have a chip on my shoulder, but that is not at all how I feel. I only want to defend the Church’s teachings from those who seek to misrepresent it, either through ignorance or by willful intent.

 

[Crusader13]

Which is all I meant by observing you feel one with God in your judgement on the priest.
You believe you see matters objectively and noone else does unless they agree.

And I am saying that at a practical level this sort of attitude can only lead to sleepless nights and goes beyond your duty once youve informed your bishop.
Anything more public in your parish is more likely going against unity and possibly Jesus himself in my opinion.
Its a judgement beyond our paygrade…especially if its to do with Lutheran intercommunion practises.

I believe I may understand more of what you’re trying to say now. So if I sounded overly defensive, I apologize. I guess my concern is that I don’t see an easy answer as to how to fix this issue and I don’t think a bishop would think it reasonable to remove a priest simply because a few members of the laity take issue with his comments, whether right or wrong.

So yes, you may be right in that once I inform my bishop that it is no longer productive to seek any form of public censure or correction, but I would be remiss if I didn’t work to ensure that statements like this aren’t at least brought to light, so that an informed discussion can take place and any misunderstanding can be corrected.