Criticism of the New Translation

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NewEnglandPries said:
Small subset.
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So were the 12 apostels and Christ.

and not the draw a parraell. but did not hitler start the nazi movement with just a small geoup in a coffee shop.

Now I am not saying you are correct in saying that it is a small subset, what I am saying is that if it is do not dismiss it just because of that small subsets have ben known to chang the world.
 
YoungTradCath said:
I don’t really think I understand your first statement. The use of Latin is allowed everywhere at all times in the Latin rite. It doesn’t have to be allowed by local law. That quote says “remaining,” as in, if there are exceptions now, they go in to the future. Or is that not what it means? I can’t think of a situation where Latin isn’t allowed.
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Fair point. I’m not quite sure either. The official statement reads:

“36. § 1. Linguae latinae usus, salvo particulari iure, in Ritibus latinis servetur.”

salvo is ablative of salvus, “safe, unhurt, sound” so I don’t know what the translators were thinking when they used “remaining.”

FWIW, in part 2 they translated “haud raro” (not rarely) with a more biased “frequently.” How did the council fathers know that the vernacular would be “frequently” an advantage after the Reformers showed it could only be divisive? That said, I could understand the “mother tongue” could be an advantage where that country never heard of religion.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
So were the 12 apostels and Christ.
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Yes, so that must mean anytime a small group of Catholics prefers something that it will catch fire and become the new norm in a short period of time… :rolleyes:
and not the draw a parraell. but did not hitler start the nazi movement with just a small geoup in a coffee shop.
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I think Bishop Williamson denies Nazis existed… j/k

But seriously, if some people like/prefer Latin then fine, good for them. However to think that if people “just give it a chance” they too will fall in love with it is without foundation. The majority of Catholics throughout the world have zero interest in removing the vernacular as the main language of liturgy.
 
ProVobis said:
So are gold and platinum.
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Yes, and since fewer people speak Klingon than Latin I guess that makes it more valuable as well…:rolleyes:

The claims that the vernacular is going to disappear as the main language of liturgy in the Church within any of our lifetimes is a claim without foundation.
 
NewsTheMan said:
Subset? Huh? The EF is not a subset and nor are the people who attend it. Anyway, yes, smaller than the OF for sure. But growing year by year!
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The EF is indeed a subset, it is the extraordinary form as opposed to the ordinary. It doesn’t make it bad or anything, but its simply not something the majority of Catholics have a desire to return to.
 
NewEnglandPries said:
The EF is indeed a subset, it is the extraordinary form as opposed to the ordinary. It doesn’t make it bad or anything, but its simply not something the majority of Catholics have a desire to return to.
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Please explain how the EF is a subset. A subset of what exactly - of the Latin Rite? Then yes, just like the OF it is a subset. Otherwise, I struggle to see what you mean.
 
=NewEnglandPries;8607552]Yes, so that must mean anytime a small group of Catholics prefers something that it will catch fire and become the new norm in a short period of time… :rolleyes:
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My piont is that it should not be dismissed just because it is a small group. (not sure that is true by the way)
I think Bishop Williamson denies Nazis existed… j/k
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I denied that he exist. 😃
But seriously, if some people like/prefer Latin then fine, good for them. However to think that if people “just give it a chance” they too will fall in love with it is without foundation. The majority of Catholics throughout the world have zero interest in removing the vernacular as the main language of liturgy.
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The truth be told Latin is the main language of the Western church. I think you are correct in that those that would replace the entire liturgy with latin is small, but those that would like to see what VII said that Latin be retained in litugy is much larger than given credit. That means both the Latin and the venacular in each and every Liturgy.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
My piont is that it should not be dismissed just because it is a small group. (not sure that is true by the way)

The truth be told Latin is the main language of the Western church. I think you are correct in that those that would replace the entire liturgy with latin is small, but those that would like to see what VII said that Latin be retained in litugy is much larger than given credit. That means both the Latin and the venacular in each and every Liturgy.
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I’m not dismissing it because its small, I’m saying its not going to become the norm because its small.
A poster stated Latin would not become the norm again and that vernacular is here to stay. The post was then called among the “worst prophecies in history.”

Latin is the official language of the Church and is useful for that purpose. Latin can be better incorporated in liturgy. However, thinking its going to be the main language of liturgy seems, imho, to be wishful thinking…
 
I don’t understand why people prefer the vernacular. I don’t feel challenged to lift my mind. I don’t feel anything tugging on me to ascend to. I feel like I’m at the mall or something.
 
NewEnglandPries said:
Yes, so that must mean anytime a small group of Catholics prefers something that it will catch fire and become the new norm in a short period of time… :rolleyes:
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You know, sales of music on vinyl are up over the last decade or so. And the biggest increase in people listening to vinyl records has come among the young (read: hipsters). In fact, not that long ago, all music was on vinyl. Also, I like vinyl and have devoted great efforts to seeking it out for myself and trying to popularize it among others. Most of my friends are other vinyl-loving audiophiles, and they are all pretty young too. From these facts and trends, therefore, it clearly stands to reason that in the future everyone will want their music exclusively on vinyl. Vinyl: the wave of the past, and of the future! The biological solution will take care of holdout “digital music” fogies, with their felt banners and tambourines, before too long.
NewsTheMan said:
Right. So, again, are you saying then that the EF is a subset of the OF or that it is a subset of the Latin Rite?
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He is saying that the group of people who attend the traditional Latin Mass amounts to only a small subset of the group of people who attend Mass.
YoungTradCath said:
I don’t understand why people prefer the vernacular. I don’t feel challenged to lift my mind. I don’t feel anything tugging on me to ascend to. I feel like I’m at the mall or something.
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“I feel” … “I feel” … “I feel”. Is that traditional language? Is that how we make decisions here, based on the individual and his or her own feeeeeelings?
 
MarkThompson said:
“I feel” … “I feel” … “I feel”. Is that traditional language? Is that how we make decisions here, based on the individual and his or her own feeeeeelings?
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I didn’t feel like phrasing that any differently. Meh. I could’ve matter-of-factly said that English masses “do not challenge the mind and soul to ascend,” but I didn’t. :confused: I actually thought about the possible remarks after I posted.
 
YoungTradCath said:
I could’ve matter-of-factly said that English masses “do not challenge the mind and soul to ascend,” but I didn’t.
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Sure, you could have, but then it would have become evident that this was just an opinion without evidence to back it up. Since, obviously, there are other people who do report that Mass in their own language helps their mind and soul to “ascend,” where does that leave you? You are simply overgeneralizing from your own personal experience.
 
NewEnglandPries said:
The EF is indeed a subset, it is the extraordinary form as opposed to the ordinary. It doesn’t make it bad or anything, but its simply not something the majority of Catholics have a desire to return to.
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The majority of Catholics don’t even attend Mass, vernacular or not.
 
YoungTradCath said:
I don’t understand why people prefer the vernacular. I don’t feel challenged to lift my mind. I don’t feel anything tugging on me to ascend to. I feel like I’m at the mall or something.
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One thing, its nice to understand what is being said and to interact with that.

It is a fact that most Catholics will not learn Latin. A sad fact, but a fact none the less.

If the Church was to actually teach the faithful Latin so that they could understand it and pray in it, then I could see a change but the Church does not seem to wish to do this nor do the majority of the faithful seem inclined to learn Latin.
 
ByzCath said:
One thing, its nice to understand what is being said and to interact with that.

It is a fact that most Catholics will not learn Latin. A sad fact, but a fact none the less.

If the Church was to actually teach the faithful Latin so that they could understand it and pray in it, then I could see a change but the Church does not seem to wish to do this nor do the majority of the faithful seem inclined to learn Latin.
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That is correct. About the best they can hope for is for a few people to pick up some Latin from the new missals that have Latin on one side and English on the other. If it becomes of value for diocesan church employees to know some Latin, that will also increase the likelihood, but the way things are now, that’s not very likely either.
 
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