Criticism of Things Catholic

[MrS]

Would this be many who will remain in the dark or will all remain in the dark until this is cleared up?

IMHO I think that even if a conscious effort, in good conscience, were made to instruct, there would still be “many” who would ignore or reject the teaching because “they know better”

And perhaps many more who just don’t care.

 

[bobzills]

IMHO I think that even if a conscious effort, in good conscience, were made to instruct, there would still be “many” who would ignore or reject the teaching because “they know better”

And perhaps many more who just don’t care.

In any case, it would not be all. So we have another example of the essential difference in meaning between many and all.

 

[bobzills]

Christ didn’t use the word “all” or “many” he was not talking in English.

But for almost two thousand years, Popes, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, priests, Saints and Catholic theologians, and Bible translators, have said that the correct teaching is that the Blood was shed for many. Now after Vatican II, it looks like there has been an essential change in this teaching as the Pope now says that the Blood has been shed for all. And questions have been raised as to the motivation behind this change and the status of the doctrine of the Apokastasis.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I know which way they have gone with the new translation, I am just saying that I will accept it either way because I trust the experts in HMC more then I trust members of an online forum in what they believe. I defer to the experts.

 

[ProVobis]

Christ didn’t use the word “all” or “many” he was not talking in English. Like I said, I will trust HMC in whatever they say is the proper English translation.

Better hear it in Latin; that’s the official version which needs no translation from any language. Less worry about what the correct translation is that way. Besides, 40 years from now you’ll still have the same Latin while probably hearing an entirely different English translation. Your kids will love you for teaching them a non-changing language.

 

[cora_cobb]

Thanks for this thread, Deacon Ed B!

One of the principles I learned as a Protestant was to allow everyone to practice the spiritual gifts that they are given by the Holy Spirit and not try to be someone in the church that we are not gifted to be.

One of the reasons that many Protestant churches split is because everyone wants to “be the pastor” or “be the music director” or “be the treasurer” or even “be the decorating committee chairperson!”

They criticize everything, plant doubts and dissension while using the Bible (the Supreme Authority of the Protestant fellowships) to justify their criticisms. Inevitably schisms in the fellowship develop, often the pastor or other beleaguered and discouraged leader quits, and the church splits. Usually there are bad feelings and broken hearts. Sometimes there is utter spiritual ruin as disgusted members reject Christianity entirely after experiencing the rottenness.

I’ve seen this happen over and over again, and it makes my stomach hurt to see Catholics mimicking this behavior, only instead of using the Bible to justify their litany of complaints, they use the “writings” of the Popes and other bishops. Wake up, Catholics! You are acting like the Protestants!

I think that we should all be docile and submissive to our Church leaders, and if they do something that appears (to our little minds) to be out-of-kilter, we should follow the approved procedure for attempting to correct this, all the while remaining humble and open to the possibility that perhaps WE are wrong, not our leaders.

 

[cora_cobb]

I am completely with you on this. I am a new convert and came into the Church in 2004. I too have heard bickering from my fellow protestants and have been told by many that unless I did this or that I wouldn’t make it into heaven…Well I won’t spend much time on this but you get the idea.

When I was a young Christian the Church I attended suddenly disolved. I was heart broken and felt lost. Eventyally I got over it but have never forgotten the sinking feeling I felt the day I was told.

Now that I am Catholic I see things I don’t understand and hear complaints and criticisms from some. While in RCIA I remember complaints about changes made by Vatican II and decided to find out for myself. I managed to print off all the documents and read the whole thing. I didn’t understand some of it but I did find that the complaints I was hearing were unjustified. The wording of the documents I read gave room for the particular things being done in the church I was attending. Since then I have found that most questions or disagreements can be answered by the Catechism or even your Priest so there is no need to be upset or complain.

RCIA was very hard since I was trying to understand what appeared to be worlds apart from what I had been taught. I spent hours comparing the two faiths and my head was reeling. Then there were the complainers and it was much worse for me.
Even so I knew without a doubt that I was supposed to be Catholic and am grateful for that gift. Even with the differences the main thing I see is unity and pray that it will only grow and get stronger.

I understand that it may appear that your lifelong memories of the way you were taught to worship are being disregarded and that hurts you. I do understand , but I also understand that as a Catholic you have the privalege of worshiping daily, and that for the most part each Mass will be the same. You know that your Baptism is a sacrament and is precious to you, the Church and to our God. I was taught that Baptism was just symbolic, but my heart told me differently. You can imagine my excitement when I found that the Catholic Church viewed it differently.
As a Catholic you can read and learn from a rich collection of writings of ancients of the past. I am getting misty just thinking of things I have to be thankful for my new found faith. May God Bless and keep the one true Church for ever and ever.

Cora

 

[reggieM]

Why do so many find it necessary to criticize things of our Catholic Church.

It’s a very dangerous practice – especially on a public forum.

Not only could it be unjust criticism of the Holy Church (a terrible thing to do), but it could hurt the faith of people for no good reason.

It also feeds ego and pride – setting oneself above the Church and acting and judge and jury.

 

[revelations]

it makes me sad to read all of this

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I am completely with you on this. I am a new convert and came into the Church in 2004. I too have heard bickering from my fellow protestants and have been told by many that unless I did this or that I wouldn’t make it into heaven…Well I won’t spend much time on this but you get the idea.

When I was a young Christian the Church I attended suddenly disolved. I was heart broken and felt lost. Eventyally I got over it but have never forgotten the sinking feeling I felt the day I was told.

Now that I am Catholic I see things I don’t understand and hear complaints and criticisms from some. While in RCIA I remember complaints about changes made by Vatican II and decided to find out for myself. I managed to print off all the documents and read the whole thing. I didn’t understand some of it but I did find that the complaints I was hearing were unjustified. The wording of the documents I read gave room for the particular things being done in the church I was attending. Since then I have found that most questions or disagreements can be answered by the Catechism or even your Priest so there is no need to be upset or complain.

RCIA was very hard since I was trying to understand what appeared to be worlds apart from what I had been taught. I spent hours comparing the two faiths and my head was reeling. Then there were the complainers and it was much worse for me.
Even so I knew without a doubt that I was supposed to be Catholic and am grateful for that gift. Even with the differences the main thing I see is unity and pray that it will only grow and get stronger.

I understand that it may appear that your lifelong memories of the way you were taught to worship are being disregarded and that hurts you. I do understand , but I also understand that as a Catholic you have the privalege of worshiping daily, and that for the most part each Mass will be the same. You know that your Baptism is a sacrament and is precious to you, the Church and to our God. I was taught that Baptism was just symbolic, but my heart told me differently. You can imagine my excitement when I found that the Catholic Church viewed it differently.
As a Catholic you can read and learn from a rich collection of writings of ancients of the past. I am getting misty just thinking of things I have to be thankful for my new found faith. May God Bless and keep the one true Church for ever and ever.
Cora

Cora, thank you for such a beautiful response, and welcome home to the Catholic Church. You have verbalized what so many cradle Catholics fail to grasp. Many do not realize the harm they are doing to people inquiring about out true faith or the confusion they may be causing for those who are still learning. Your very witness will speak volumes and I thank you for it.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

It’s a very dangerous practice – especially on a public forum.

Not only could it be unjust criticism of the Holy Church (a terrible thing to do), but it could hurt the faith of people for no good reason.

It also feeds ego and pride – setting oneself above the Church and acting and judge and jury.

Again thank you for another reasoned and accurate response. I truly wish people would take this to heart. Our Catholic faith is the most precious gift God has given us as it allows us to partake in the very bread of life, i.e., the Eucharist. (in saying that our faith is the most precious gift, I no way diminish the Eucharist, as the Eucharist is the sum and substance of everything that is Catholic) We are a Eucharistic people. This is Jesus with us, God, the 2nd person of the blessed Trinity, who humbled himself to come to us as the food of eternal life. In this, let us rejoice and be glad, not feel we have to a judge of the very gift God himself has given us.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[PatrickJT914]

After reading these posts, I stop to think about a couple scenarios (which I hope won’t ever happen) What if some future pope and/or church council decide to strip the liturgy of mostly everything. What if, government becomes a dictatorial police state making Catholicism illegal forcing us to go underground. Just the early church in the catacombs. Would we stop being Catholics and celebrating the Mass. No, of course not because we would still have the basic elements of a Mass: The Word of the Lord (either written or by oral tradition), a priest or a bishop to consecrate the bread and wine, the people gathered, certain prayers, (i.e. The Lord’s prayer, Lamb of God, etc)
I thought I’d add this to the mix as a reassurance to all my fellow Catholics, especially the pre-Vatican II Catholics. Don’t worry no matter what we are still One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.Besides Jesus promised us that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against us. He also said he and the Holy Spirit will not leave us.
:yup:

 

[ProVobis]

Cora, thank you for such a beautiful response, and welcome home to the Catholic Church. You have verbalized what so many cradle Catholics fail to grasp. Many do not realize the harm they are doing to people inquiring about out true faith or the confusion they may be causing for those who are still learning. Your very witness will speak volumes and I thank you for it.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Oh, now you’re criticizing all cradle Catholics?

Deacon Ed B, what exactly is it that bothers you? Of course new converts are going to be excited about being Catholics.

I don’t understand your criticisms against people in the Catholic Church. They are what they are. And you go on and on and on about it. I would think a clergy member would be a little more positive about general memberships of Catholics, especially those who still go to Church, and see the good side of everyone.

I also don’t understand your criticisms followed by the signature “Prayers and blessings.” Criticisms are not blessings.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Oh, now you’re criticizing all cradle Catholics?
.

Why do you mis-quote me. If you reread my post I said many, not all. Many and all do not equate. Please keep comments and quotes accurate, else improper impressions and incorrect answers result.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Marauder]

Why do you mis-quote me. If you reread my post I said many, not all. Many and all do not equate. Please keep comments and quotes accurate, else improper impressions and incorrect answers result.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

I think it is ironic this happened right after a discussion on the use of many vs. all in the Mass.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I think it is ironic this happened right after a discussion on the use of many vs. all in the Mass.

Why did I know that was going to be brought up. But that is not the point of discussion here.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
PS - If its good enough for Rome, it’s good enough for me.

 

[latinmasslover]

I guess you didn’t read it in context of this post and other posts. I said in this context. If the church as a whole came out and said they supported abortion (which they never will) I would look at why they are saying that and read all the arguements either way. As I said. I am not a theologian or linguist. I will defer to those in the Vatican that area.

Need I say more?

 

[latinmasslover]

You can keep your opinions on how much I am on or off the site and what I study when off the site to yourself. They have no bearing on my spiritual study or what I will do with my time. I personally do not feel the great need to investigate this issue farther because I do not feel it is necessary in my spritual development and in my worship of God.

Since you are offering unsolicited advice, I would like to offer that you really should consider the charity of your posts.

Nazism isn’t humility. Just an FYI. Jesus is the way, the TRUTH, and the life. If you want to put the pope and all the bishops on a pedestal above Jesus, feel free to do so. Just don’t excpect anyone to sit by and ignore the fact.

 

[catharina]

After reading these posts, I stop to think about a couple scenarios (which I hope won’t ever happen) What if some future pope and/or church council decide to strip the liturgy of mostly everything. What if, government becomes a dictatorial police state making Catholicism illegal forcing us to go underground. Just the early church in the catacombs. Would we stop being Catholics and celebrating the Mass. No, of course not because we would still have the basic elements of a Mass: The Word of the Lord (either written or by oral tradition), a priest or a bishop to consecrate the bread and wine, the people gathered, certain prayers, (i.e. The Lord’s prayer, Lamb of God, etc)
I thought I’d add this to the mix as a reassurance to all my fellow Catholics, especially the pre-Vatican II Catholics. Don’t worry no matter what we are still One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.Besides Jesus promised us that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against us. He also said he and the Holy Spirit will not leave us.
:yup:

The scenario you’ve depicted describes the Church in China today.

The Church in China has suffered perscution for close to sixty years. Some Catholic priests still die in prison for the crime of offering Mass. Yet the Church in China is still alive. I doubt that a single Catholic in China cares whether the Mass is offered in Latin, Mandarin, Cantonese or in any other one of China’s more than 200 languages. They are simply thankful for the Mass.

cardinalkungfoundation.org/

 

[Marauder]

Nazism isn’t humility.

And how did this relate to the post? Isn’t there some online discussion forum theory that talks about when someone pulls out nazism in a thread, where nazism has nothing to do with the thread. Oh yeah it’s called Godwin’s Law.

Jesus is the way, the TRUTH, and the life. If you want to put the pope and all the bishops on a pedestal above Jesus, feel free to do so. Just don’t excpect anyone to sit by and ignore the fact.

Nobody has put the bishops and the Pope above Jesus. Let’s see if I can spell this out in plain language. In this one aspect I will trust in HMC in their interpretation of the words as written in the earliest Bible. As far as I know even the Latin translation of the Bible has not been determined to have EVERY single world without error. If HMC says the word in English should be all, then that is fine with me. If HMC says the word in English should be many, that is fine with me. I understand the theological reasoning behind both answers. It is my understanding that NEITHER word is written or implied in the original and that when it was translated to Latin was an early interpretation. I have not studied (or do I care to study) the original pre-latin text enough to know which is the right translation so I will trust HMC.

Does the fact that the church has changed its opinion on this word extend into if the church changes it’s opinion on abortion or nazism? No. They are entirely different topics. If the church did change it’s opinion on those topics I would look at why they are doing it, read what they have written about the change, and form my opinon at the time.