Critics of Papal Infallibility: Can you name other examples of popes making fallible decisions apart from Honorius I?

[elvisman]

I’m not rejecting them, I’m saying they don’t say what you are claiming.

They are what they are and your disenchantment with them doesn’t change that fact. You can rationalize his comments all you want but they will still say what he intended for them to say. I’d say that’s a bit of spiritual pride on your part.

I could tell you it’s raining outside and even though you were getting wet, you could still rationalize your way into thinking it’s sunny and dry . . .

 

[elvisman]

So you’re saying you believe the Catholic Church is correct about everything, the Orthodox Church is correct on everything, and if someone who is Orthodox points out why this is wrong, he or she must be anti-Catholic?

Alright, my apologies for calling you anti-Orthodox for saying we’re wrong. You’re anti-Orthodox because of your quick willingness to dismiss as anti-Catholic any Orthodox poster who follows a logical train of thought and says that the Catholic Church is of necessity wrong on certain points if the Orthodox Church is to be correct.

How’s that?

I’ll be honest, I’m just sick and tired of Catholics throwing around the “anti-Catholic” thing every time someone disagrees with the Catholic Church. Guess what, if people didn’t have disagreements with the Catholic Church, they’d be Catholic. Just like if you truly had no disagreements with the Orthodox Church you’d be Orthodox, but they hold mutually exclusive positions, so the fact that you aren’t Orthodox says you disagree with us on certain points.
This doesn’t mean you’re anti-Catholic.

Anti-Catholic is saying the pope is the Anti-Christ, and that the Jesuits are a Papal conspiracy to take over the world. Honest disagreement is not anti-Catholic.

Anti-Catholicism is also about twisting the truth to make it seem that the Church is wrong. That’s all I was pointing out. I love my Orthodox brethren and pray for their return to the fold.

 

[Louie1983]

Anti-Catholicism is also about twisting the truth to make it seem that the Church is wrong. That’s all I was pointing out. I love my Orthodox brethren and pray for their return to the fold.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Not everyone who is asking questions and having concerns about Catholicism is an “anti-Catholic.” That knee-jerk paranoia is one thing that drives me nuts about hardcore apologists. It’s just a pitbull instinct to think that people considering Catholicism who are being careful, cautious, critical, and analytical about it to make sure it’s the truth are somehow hate-mongering “anti-Catholics?”

 

[david_ruiz]

Yes. Novel, as in novelty, as in “new”. “Priest” (today) and “Presbyter” (Book of Acts) are exactly the same.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Context, context my friend. It appears that you have grown accustomed to interpreting scriptures from your own mindset instead of the context from which it derived.

We are discussing infallibility. The Pope is Vicar over the whole of Christendom, especially when he speaks “ex-cathedra”, When he tends and feeds the flock of Jesus (John 21:15-19) Christ as the Rock to which Jesus builds His Church (Mt. 16:15-17). The Vicar of Christ teaches and reveals the teachings of Jesus Christ to every age, and to those who oppose them. I was not speaking of the bishop of Rome.

Yet you protest and argue against Jesus own Words recorded from his own mouth? by interpreting what you think from your own opinion, which conflicts with revealed revelation? Jesus did well to build his Church on Cephas =Rock, so that every wind of doctrine that comes from man will not effect the revelations of Jesus Christ and His teachings. This is how the Pope is Vicar of the whole of Christendom, because Christ said it, so I believe. Man says no to these revealed teachings of Christ and decieve only themselves.

Peace be with you

]
“The Pope is vicar over the whole of Christendom,” per gabriel-thread 882

]

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

david; You are speaking to yourself, because all that you stated below has nothing to do with your false impression of Vicar being the Holy Spirit. Why you are going off into lala land of things that do not pertain to your blasphemous statement is beyond me? Maybe you could start over by defining how the Holy Spirit is Vicar to Christ? Then maybe it can be revealed in truth that you have a misconception of the definition of Vicar when applied to the bishops, pastors, and Popes. It may help, if you can give the Apostolic Traditional revelation from Jesus Christ of who the blessed Trinity is? then maybe your true colors will reveal whether or not your christianity is built upon Rock or men?

=david ruiz;7231563
Good point ,except that the opposite could be true , that to say a person persona christi (?) ,may be blasphemous , (or to be as infallible as Christ) .Is not this what some orthodoxy says about a man (pope) being infallible -blasphemy ?. You should at least stick to the idea of me failing to pin down your moving target of what vicar , or even pope is .If vicar is that low , lower than Christ or Holy Spirit , then of course I retract .But can we not agree that Christ left the Holy Spirit in his place ,and that his effects were as strong or even more effective than if Jesus were here Himself ? Certainly Peter was bolder with the Holy Spirit, than when Peter was present with Jesus.

I think your running away with yourself here, I see some scripture content being taken out of context from your comment. Can you define what Church is according to the biblical definition? because if you can? your post below does not make any sense from a biblical perspective of what and who the Church is.

To understand the bible teaches “One faith” (not two) “One baptism” (not was blind now I see, accept Jesus as my personal Lord and savior altar call) " One Lord" and the Pillar and bulwark of Truth is the Church not the bible. Apply the biblical revelation what and who the Church is, then you might want to rethink your postings here, because one cannot reconcile one who refuses to see what Jesus revealed to His Apostles and His Church, by holding on to doctrines made by men, instead of God.

That is right .You must now reconcile all these other churches with positive fruits and a love for Christ , who are FOR Him, as were those disciples ,who were not part of the apostles yet Jesus said they were His.You must reconcile this with just what is “church , One faith ,One Baptism,One Lord”.Catholic dogma on this is does not match up with the reality of His kingdom in this world. Say what you will, for millions the experience is -"I was blind and now I see, because of Jesus, as presented by these "other “churches” .It is not enough to claim them under your wing ,because you were first and then say they are still not in fullness or second -class, for Jesus never said this about the contemporary "other "group of the apostles. ,The reality of their experience is anything but second class or lacking in anything save unity ,which you greatly exagerate

.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Because when the Orthodox use this language, they mean to say that the Pope is Vicar as being dictator over all other bishops. When a Catholic uses Pope is Vicar of Christ Church, we are meaning as protector (one who tends) and teacher (one who feeds) of Jesus flock on earth, those teachings and revelations of Jesus Christ. Gurney and I were discussing an Orthodox position.

Please do not take my comments out of context again as you do the scriptures. Thank you

=david ruiz;7231563 why did you tell gurney this statement is Orthodox error of catholicism ?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Gabriel, your posts are getting too personal. They’re becoming insulting. It’s not like you. In your zeal to defend your Church, this type of rhetoric doesn’t indear anyone to your faith or ecclesiology. It looks like you’re getting mad and resorting to put-downs? Why make this statement here? And why tell me I need a Christianity 101 course and that I’m “entertaining” but not substantive and use polemical language like “dictator?”

Please do not take my comments out of context again as you do the scriptures. Thank you

 

[ron77nyc]

Actually - I already gave you statement from augustine about his belief in the global jurisdiction of the Peter - and his successors, whom he lists by name.

Why would Jesus have a plan to continue the office of Peter into the 21st century if He was expecting the end to take place shortly after His own earthly life? The apostles thought it would be during their life.

 

[schaick]

The Church did not decide the canon - the Holy Spirit did. The Church declared this truth with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The fact that the Church would be guided into ALL truth was guaranteed by Jesus himself in John 16:12-15.

Secondly - your claim that Papal infallibility has been exercised only twice is a patently FALSE statement. They may be the only 2 infallible dogmatic declarations - but they are hardly the only 2 infallible declarations.

**Every time the Pope declares the canonization of a saint - it is an infallible **declaration. Whenever he states, “We define” or “I define” - he is exercising infallibility.

Finally - as I stated before - the written word of God is already infallible because it is God-breathed.

**Since you are the **only one that knows it all- can you give us a list of infallible statements?

 

[elvisman]

Not everyone who is asking questions and having concerns about Catholicism is an “anti-Catholic.” That knee-jerk paranoia is one thing that drives me nuts about hardcore apologists. It’s just a pitbull instinct to think that people considering Catholicism who are being careful, cautious, critical, and analytical about it to make sure it’s the truth are somehow hate-mongering “anti-Catholics?”

Since this is obviously directed toward me - read my post #940.
Turn your anger, instead toward those who DO resort to anti-Catholicism. None of those I was conversing with were “considering Catholicism” . . .

 

[elvisman]

Why would Jesus have a plan to continue the office of Peter into the 21st century if He was expecting the end to take place shortly after His own earthly life? The apostles thought it would be during their life.

**First of all, Peter died well before the end of the first century. THREE sucessors of his ALSO also died before that centuury ended, so what’s your point? **
That STILL would have been “shortly after” Jesus’ earthly life.

 

[elvisman]

**Since you are the **only one ****that knows it all- can you give us a list of infallible statements?

Just do some homework before you make these sorts of statements gleaned from anti-Catholic websites.

**As I indicated before - the 2 Marian doctrines you listed are the only 2 DOGMATIC statements that were made infallibly. **

And, as I ALSO indicated to you before - look for a list of canonized saints and add it to the number of times a Pope has declared, “We define” or “I define” - and you’ll have a closer number of infallible statements . . .

 

[ron77nyc]

First of all, Peter died well before the end of the first century. THREE sucessors of his ALSO also died before that centuury ended, so what’s your point?
That STILL would have been “shortly after” Jesus’ earthly life.

Apostolic succession is a man-made plan. They were all convinced that the end was very near so why appoint successors?

Matthew 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all
these things have happened.

Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.

James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

[elvisman]

Apostolic succession is a man-made plan. They were all convinced that the end was very near so why appoint successors?

Matthew 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all
these things have happened.

Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.

James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Oh, Ron – your ignorance of the Scriptures is precisely the reason for your confusion.

---

First of all – apostolic succession is not “man-made” – it is prophesied in the Old Testament.
Psalm 109:8
“Let his days be few; Let another take his office.”
**This passage is mentioned as the Apostles are choosing Judas’s successor in Acts 1 20:26. Why would the Apostles be ordaining others to succeed them throughout the NT if they didn’t expect them to appoint others? **
According to your logging – they all thought Christ’s return was right around the corner.

---

Did you forget what Peter said about the Lord’s plan not being in OUR time but in HIS??
**2 Pet. 3:80-9 **
“Do not forget, beloved, that with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day.
The Lord does not delay in fulfilling his promise, though some speak of delay; rather he gives you time because he does not want anyone to perish, but that all may come to conversion.”
**
Jesus told his apostles that the holy Spirit would guide them to ALL truth about the things that were coming (John 16:12-15).

Think and study the Scriptures before you make these false assertions about Apostolic Succession.**

 

[ron77nyc]

Oh, Ron – your ignorance of the Scriptures is precisely the reason for your confusion.

---

First of all – apostolic succession is not “man-made” – it is prophesied in the Old Testament.
Psalm 109:8
“Let his days be few; Let another take his office.”
This passage is mentioned as the Apostles are choosing Judas’s successor in Acts 1 20:26. Why would the Apostles be ordaining others to succeed them throughout the NT if they didn’t expect them to appoint others?

Thanks for your usual condescending attitude.
If you put this in context it has nothing to do with future appointees.

*According to your ***logging – they all thought Christ’s return was right around the corner.

---

Did you forget what Peter said about the Lord’s plan not being in OUR time but in HIS??
**2 Pet. 3:80-9 **
“Do not forget, beloved, that with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day.
The Lord does not delay in fulfilling his promise, though some speak of delay; rather he gives you time because he does not want anyone to perish, but that all may come to conversion.”

---

Once again - put it in context and it’s looking back - not forward.

Jesus told his apostles that the holy Spirit would guide them to ALL truth about the things that were coming (John 16:12-15

).

Think and study the Scriptures before you make these false assertions about Apostolic Succession.

If you could show me something not taken out of context it would really satisfy my questions and maybe convince others that you know what you’re talking about.

 

[elvisman]

Apostolic succession is a man-made plan. They were all convinced that the end was very near so why appoint successors?

Matthew 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all
these things have happened.

Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.

James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Oh, Ron – your ignorance of the Scriptures is precisely the reason for your confusion.

---

First of all – apostolic succession is not “man-made” – it is prophesied in the Old Testament.
Psalm 109:8
“Let his days be few; Let another take his office.”
This passage is mentioned as the Apostles are choosing Judas’s successor in Acts 1 20:26. Why would the Apostles be ordaining others to succeed them throughout the NT if they didn’t expect them to appoint others? **
** According to your logging – they all thought Christ’s return was right around the corner.

---

Did you forget what Peter said about the Lord’s plan not being in OUR time but in HIS??
2 Pet. 3:80-9 **
“Do not forget, beloved, that with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day.
The Lord does not delay in fulfilling his promise, though some speak of delay; rather he gives you time because he does not want anyone to perish, but that all may come to conversion.”
**
Think and study the Scriptures before you make these false assertions about Apostolic Succession.

 

[elvisman]

Apostolic succession is a man-made plan. They were all convinced that the end was very near so why appoint successors?

Matthew 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all
these things have happened.

Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.

James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

First of all – apostolic succession is not “man-made” – it is prophesied in the Old Testament.
Psalm 109:8
“Let his days be few; Let another take his office.”
**This passage is mentioned as the Apostles are choosing Judas’s successor in Acts 1 20:26. Why would the Apostles be ordaining others to succeed them throughout the NT if they didn’t expect them to appoint others? **
According to your logic – they all thought Christ’s return was right around the corner.

---

Did you forget what Peter said about the Lord’s plan not being in OUR time but in HIS?
2 Pet. 3:80-9 **
“Do not forget, beloved, that with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day.
The Lord does not delay in fulfilling his promise, though some speak of delay; rather he gives you time because he does not want anyone to perish, but that all may come to conversion.”
**
Study the Scriptures before you make these false assertions about Apostolic Succession.

 

[schaick]

I must point out that everything you have said is 100% your private interpretation of what scripture intimates. The majority of modern protestants now disagree with you on at least some points - some protestants disagree with you on most points. They have studied those exact scriptures for years, decades, and have come to oppose your opinion. Now what? How can you possibly say that you are correct and that they are incorrect? Same bible verses.

References for your bold statements please.

Which “protestants” disagree and on which points?