Crucified vs Resurrected Eucharistic Presence

[JJO]

“living sacrifice”

Dear Jim,

Is this “living sacrifice” also present during Eucharistic Adoration?

Julian

 

[JJO]

Hi Gorgias,

“It’s the sacrifice , not the crucifixion , that we memorialize” you said.

1. how can the sacrifice and crucifixion be different here if the sacrifice occurred in the manner of crucifixion?
2. I understand we memoralise, but I am more concerned about the corporal presence of this sacrifice. Is the physically suffering Body of Christ corporally present at Mass, not just the commemoration?

Julian

 

[JJO]

It’s a subtle nuance, but it’s critical: Christ died once and for all of us. We don’t need to re-enact the crucifixion. The offering of himself to the Father, though, is an eternal event, and since Christ commanded us to memorialize it, we do exactly that, at each Mass. We make present his body, blood, soul and divinity, and we re-present the sacrifice of self that Jesus made, and which is the source of our salvation.

I understand there is no re-enaction, but how can “the sacrifice of self that Jesus made,” be present if the suffering Body of Christ isn’t present.

"We don’t go back to the cross and offer His dead body to God " . - But is the moment of crucifixion brought to the present and offered to God the Father (without the part where Jeus dies)

 

[JJO]

the one and only crucifixion of Jesus is made corporeally present, {although not in the manner in which bodies are in a place} during Eucharistic adoration also

Hi Vico,

You agreed with the above statement but then what difference is there between adoration and the Mass, not in terms of what we commemorate, but in what is corporally present?

This would also mean that we consume the crucified Body of Christ

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes Jesus is present in the Blessed Sacrament at adoration

Jesus is alive

 

[JJO]

xvs,

You say “the Holy Mass is both true sacrifice (the eternal fold) and a memorial of the historical sacrifice.”

Then they are both corporally present correct?

that means as you said, that “we can witness the Sacrifice of Calvary”.

I am still witnessing this Sacrifice at Eucharistic Adoration?

 

[JJO]

Hi Todd,

So you’re saying that “the risen Christ bears the wounds of his crucifixion in his glorified flesh” and it is this that is present at the Mass, instead of the actual moment in the past, brought to the present, where Jesus is actually suffering a cruel death.

Is this correct seeing as “body and blood of Christ enthroned gloriously in heaven” cannot be simultaneously corporally present as the Body of Christ suffering on Calvary?

 

[Gorgias]

Julian,

• how can the sacrifice and crucifixion be different here if the sacrifice occurred in the manner of crucifixion?

That’s kinda like asking what’s the difference between dinner and hamburger, isn’t it?

I mean… “dinner” is analogous to the sacrifice (it’s what you’re doing), and “hamburger” is just the particular form that your dinner takes tonight. In other words, one doesn’t have to have hamburger in order to have dinner, but one cannot have dinner without some sort of food on the table.

In a similar way, Christ’s atoning sacrifice is what saves us. It happens to have taken place on the cross (and, theology tells us, the cross was an appropriate means for that sacrifice). In history, there is no “atoning sacrifice of Christ” without the cross, because that happens to be the way that it took place. However, it’s the sacrifice that saves us.

The cross is the manner, as you point out. It’s not the sacrifice itself.

• I understand we memoralise, but I am more concerned about the corporal presence of this sacrifice. Is the physically suffering Body of Christ corporally present at Mass, not just the commemoration?

No. The glorified body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ is what is present in the Eucharist.

 

[Todd_Easton]

So you’re saying that “the risen Christ bears the wounds of his crucifixion in his glorified flesh” and it is this that is present at the Mass…

Yes. That is my understanding of the mystery.

The Council of Trent said in part, emphasis mine:

And this faith has ever been in the Church of God, that, immediately after the consecration, the veritable Body of our Lord, and His veritable Blood, together with His soul and divinity, are under the species of bread and wine; but the Body indeed under the species of bread, and the Blood under the species of wine, by the force of the words; but the body itself under the species of wine, and the blood under the species of bread, and the soul under both, by the force of that natural connexion and concomitancy whereby the parts of Christ our Lord, who hath now risen from the dead, to die no more, are united together; and the divinity, furthermore, on account of the admirable hypostatical union thereof with His body and soul. (Council of Trent, Session 13, First Decree, Chapter 3)

 

[Vico]

Vico:

the one and only crucifixion of Jesus is made corporeally present, {although not in the manner in which bodies are in a place} during Eucharistic adoration also

Hi Vico,

You agreed with the above statement but then what difference is there between adoration and the Mass, not in terms of what we commemorate, but in what is corporally present?

This would also mean that we consume the crucified Body of Christ

The same real presence is in both the Mass (Divine Liturgy) and in Eucharistic Adoration: “corporeally present, although not in the manner in which bodies are in a place”.

 

[JJO]

Hi Gorgias,

I know that sacrifice (dinner) doesn’t have to be in form of crucifixion (hamburger), but the sacrifice still has to take some sort of form, just like dinner must have some sort of form.

What form does the sacrifice take then? You could say unbloody but that doesn’t explain the means of the sacrifice.

Julian

 

[JJO]

But is He present in the way He was when in pain on the cross?

Julian

 

[JJO]

whereby the parts of Christ our Lord, who hath now risen from the dead, to die

Hi Todd,

That is certainly thought-provoking but I’m not sure it’s saying that the presence is of Jesus now risen from the dead that is in the Eucharist. I think it’s intending to say something more like, "whereby the parts of Christ our Lord, who by the way is not still dead but risen , to die no more, are united together; and the divinity, furthermore, on account of the admirable hypostatical union thereof with His body and soul.

I dont think he is saying the risen Christ is in the Eucharist but that despite the sacrifice of Christ being present, Jesus is still alive.

That is my interpretation

Julian

 

[JJO]

And what is Jesus experiencing in the Eucharist, His resurrected and glorious and painless state or His suffering state on the cross. If it is the first option, then how is the Mass really a sacrifice since the sacrifice of Christ was His crucifixion?

JJO

 

[Gorgias]

You could say unbloody but that doesn’t explain the means of the sacrifice.

The ‘means’? Do you mean “a sacrifice of bread and wine, changed into the body/blood/soul/divinity of Christ”, or something else?

But is He present in the way He was when in pain on the cross?

No – and it would be an incomplete sacrifice if it were the case! After all, “in pain on the cross”, Christ hadn’t yet sacrificed His life to the Father for our sake! So, if all we offer is “Christ on the cross”, we aren’t re-presenting the salvific sacrifice which the Father accepts! Christ didn’t offer the Father merely His pain, but His very life itself!

I dont think he is saying the risen Christ is in the Eucharist

It’s the glorified Christ.

If it is the first option, then how is the Mass really a sacrifice since the sacrifice of Christ was His crucifixion?

No – the crucifixion was “merely” the means by which the sacrifice came to pass. You’re confusing the instrument with the thing itself.

 

[Vico]

And what is Jesus experiencing in the Eucharist, His resurrected and glorious and painless state or His suffering state on the cross. If it is the first option, then how is the Mass really a sacrifice since the sacrifice of Christ was His crucifixion?

JJO

Baltimore Catechism

Q. 357. What is the Mass?
A. The Mass is the sacrifice of the New Law in which Christ, through the ministry of the priest, offers Himself to God in an unbloody manner under the appearances of bread and wine.

For, from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles; and in every place there is sacrifice and there is offered to my name a clean oblation. (Malachi 1:11)*

Q. 362. Is there any difference between the sacrifice of the cross and the Sacrifice of the Mass?
A. The manner in which the sacrifice is offered is different. On the cross Christ physically shed His blood and was physically slain, while in the Mass there is no physical shedding of blood nor physical death, because Christ can die no more; on the cross Christ gained merit and satisfied for us, while in the Mass He applies to us the merits and satisfaction of His death on the cross.

For we know that Christ, having risen from the dead, dies now no more, death shall no longer have dominion over him. (Romans 6:9)*

The whole divinity, and the humanity of Christ, body and soul, glorified at the Ascension is present in the world.

Christ is simultaneously present in the world in many ways, per the Constitution on the Liturgy from Vatican II:

• "Christ is always present to His Church, especially in liturgical actions.
• He is present in the Sacrifice of the Mass in the person of the priest; ‘He is the same one, now offering by the ministry of priests, who then offered Himself on the Cross [Council of Trent].’
• But He is most greatly present under the Eucharistic species.
• He is present by His power in the Sacraments, so that when anyone baptizes, Christ Himself baptizes. * He is present in His word, for He speaks when the Sacred Scriptures are read in the Church.
• He is present, finally, when the Church prays and sings the Psalms, He who promised ‘Where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in their midst’" (Matthew 18:20).

 

[JJO]

No – and it would be an incomplete sacrifice if it were the case! After all, “in pain on the cross”, Christ hadn’t yet sacrificed His life to the Father for our sake! So, if all we offer is “Christ on the cross”, we aren’t re-presenting the salvific sacrifice which the Father accepts! Christ didn’t offer the Father merely His pain , but His very life itself !

This makes sense except that
if the “salvific sacrifice” is Christ’s “very life itself”, then the surely the re-representing of the salvific sacrifice at Mass must include the presence of Christ losing his “very life”

I see now what you mean by the instrument of the sacrifice, thanks.

JJO

 

[goout]

Priest:
“The mystery of faith”
Us:
" Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again."

 

[JJO]

On the cross Christ physically shed His blood and was physically slain, while in the Mass there is no physical shedding of blood nor physical death, because Christ can die no more;

Thank you, this is extremely useful (as well as the Constitution on the Liturgy)

In that case why do depictions of the Mass show Jesus suffering? Do you think this is misleading?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[JJO]

So the Eucharist has been the risen and glorified Christ from the moment the priest says “Take this all of you and eat of it…”