Crucified vs Resurrected Eucharistic Presence

[goout]

So the Eucharist has been the risen and glorified Christ from the moment the priest says “Take this all of you and eat of it…”

I haven’t read all the thread so I’m probably being repetitive…
Christ is risen from the dead. He only went through the waters of death one time, good in all eternity. The bread becomes the body at the words of institution. His sacrifice is made present, in all it’s fullness, not just the death.

There’s a reason it’s called the mystery of faith. It’s a bottomless invitation.

The Word as Flesh makes true bread
into flesh by a word
and the wine becomes the Blood of Christ.
And if sense is deficient
to strengthen a sincere heart
Faith alone suffices.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

On the cross Christ physically shed His blood and was physically slain, while in the Mass there is no physical shedding of blood nor physical death, because Christ can die no more;

Thank you, this is extremely useful (as well as the Constitution on the Liturgy)

In that case why do depictions of the Mass show Jesus suffering? Do you think this is misleading?

…

You are welcome. The Mass (Divine Liturgy) is a memorial of both the Crucifixion and the Resurrection.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1323 "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet ‘in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.’"135

1358 We must therefore consider the Eucharist as:
- thanksgiving and praise to the Father ;
- the sacrificial memorial of Christ and his Body;
- the presence of Christ by the power of his word and of his Spirit .

I would not characterize this as misleading.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No, Jesus is now in a glorified state and no longer bears the pain of his wounds on the cross.

Jesus doesn’t suffer and die again at the Mass in the Eucharist

 

[JJO]

made present, in all it’s fullness, not just the death.

I’m confused. You said that made present is not just his death (meaning His death is present) but you also say Christ is risen in the Eucharist.

 

[JJO]

I would not characterize this as misleading.

Perfect, that was one of my main concerns.

 

[JJO]

What do you think of @goout 's response then, “Christ is risen from the dead. He only went through the waters of death one time, good in all eternity. The bread becomes the body at the words of institution. His sacrifice is made present, in all it’s fullness, not just the death.”

 

[Gorgias]

if the “salvific sacrifice” is Christ’s “very life itself”, then the surely the re-representing of the salvific sacrifice at Mass must include the presence of Christ losing his “very life”

The act that Christ asked us to memorialize isn’t the act of dying, but of offering the sacrifice to God. In an unbloody sacrifice, there isn’t any “dying” that takes place.

In that case why do depictions of the Mass show Jesus suffering? Do you think this is misleading?

It’s an illustration. It’s not a magisterial explication of doctrine. Is it helpful to connect the dots from Christ’s crucifixion to our salvation and our celebration of the Liturgy? Sure. Is it what the theology of the Church teaches? No.

So the Eucharist has been the risen and glorified Christ from the moment the priest says “Take this all of you and eat of it…”

Yes and no. I was taught that we don’t know the precise moment that the Eucharist is definitively and completely present on the altar, but we know that, by the conclusion of the Eucharistic prayer, it certainly is. But yes: when the Eucharist is present, it is His glorified body, blood and soul and divinity.

 

[njlisa]

In the Memorial Acclamation/Mystery of Faith,
the faithful respond with one of the following prayers:

“We proclaim your Death, O Lord, and profess
your Resurrection, until you come again.”

“When we eat this Bread and Drink this Cup,
we proclaim your Death, O Lord, until you come again.”

“Save us, Savior of the world, for by your Cross
and Resurrection you have set us free.”

These response show the eternal nature of Christ.

And when we partake in the Eucharist, we receive
Christ as body, blood, soul, and divinity.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

goout is correct.

The Eucharist is a “living sacrifice,” not a dead body of Jesus.

 

[porthos11]

goout:

made present, in all it’s fullness, not just the death.

I’m confused. You said that made present is not just his death (meaning His death is present) but you also say Christ is risen in the Eucharist.

Because it seems you are unable to separate the reality of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist and the event being made present through anamnesis.

Christ’s death is made truly present not through Christ suffering and dying in the Eucharistic species but through the separate consecration of the bread and the wine. In both the Host and the Chalice, Jesus is whole, glorified and alive at all moments because he is whole, glorified and alive now.

You don’t have a dead Jesus at any point in the Eucharistic species. But because the bread and wine are consecrated separately, you have a symbolic separation of the Body and Blood, which represents death. And because anamnesis is not a mere mental recall, this symbolic separation is the making present of the event of Jesus’ Sacrifice. His death in time is mystically made present to us without him actually suffering and dying in the Eucharistic Species.

So try to put out of your head what is “happening” to Jesus in the Host and Chalice. Nothing is “happening” to him there. You have to separate the concepts of the Real Presence and the anamnesis of the Sacrifice.

 

[Gorgias]

@JJO,

I was listening to back episodes of “Called to Communion” on EWTN podcasts today. You might want to listen to the episode from the end of January entitled “How does the Eucharist work?”. The question is discussed beginning somewhere around the 30 minute mark in the program.

 

[JJO]

That’s a good answer.

Last thing

of offering the sacrifice to God

We’re memoralising and re-presenting the act of offering the sacrifice to God but not the act of dying; what do you mean by the act of offering the sacrifice to God if it is not the passion of Christ.

 

[JJO]

by your Cross
and Resurrection you have set us free.”

Would this not imply the sacrifice on the cross and the resurrection are present at Mass then?

 

[JJO]

But is the sacrifice of Christ not the shedding of His Blood while alive? What else could the sacrifice be?

 

[JJO]

Is this not contradictory?

You say

Christ’s death is made truly present

and then

You don’t have a dead Jesus at any point in the Eucharistic species.

but

His death in time is mystically made present to us without him actually suffering and dying in the Eucharistic Species.

I think I understand what you mean by the above. It does make sense. Do you know of any Church documents that teach

His death in time is mystically made present to us without him actually suffering and dying in the Eucharistic Species.

Thanks

 

[JJO]

Is it on YouTube?

 

[Gorgias]

We’re memoralising and re-presenting the act of offering the sacrifice to God but not the act of dying; what do you mean by the act of offering the sacrifice to God if it is not the passion of Christ.

right – “the offering” is not “the passion”. (Nevertheless, “the passion” is the instrument by which “the offering” was made manifest.)

As a historical fact, there was no offering in the absence of the passion. (Could there have been? It’s an interesting – yet speculative – question.) Nevertheless, “passion” =/= “sacrifice”. Rather, in mathematical terms, passion → sacrifice – that is, the passion enables and gives rise to the sacrifice as offered by Christ.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No, it’s the offering of him who already shed his blood while in the mortal state.

We offer Jesus to the Father, as a living sacrifice as the bread becomes his body and the wine becomes his blood.

The priest Melchizedek offered bread and wine to God the Father, instead of animal blood and flesh

Jesus is called a priest in the order of Melchizedek

 

[JJO]

Last question - is there a chance that the instrument by which the offering is made manifest (the crucifixion), is also present at Mass. Or is this a decisive and authoritative no?

 

[JJO]

who already shed his blood while in the mortal state.

Thank you for clarifying that Jim.

JJO