Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

[ParkerD]

Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

A Jewish author posed a very important question which I have not been able to answer, and it bothers me that I cannot answer the question.

Question paraphrased:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did anyone have to die for our salvation?

Anna

Anna,
With your permission, I’m going to add a perspective that in a way deals with the question of the “problem of evil”.

As you are aware, Mormons believe that everyone has within their eternal past, a period of time when they existed as an “intelligence”–a spark of individual being that had its own identity. Spirits were “organized” or formed from intelligences, and God the Father desired to provide a plan whereby the spirits whom He had organized could progress toward becoming perfected beings. His plan was perfect. His plan retained the balance that is in the Universe–the balance that included a law of justice and penalties when any spirit in the Universe violates the agency of other spirits or violates the innate goodness that God desires to originate from the actions of those spirits whom He has organized.

The penalties for violations of laws must be paid, somehow, in order for the Universe to remain in a balanced condition–an equilibrium. The Father, desiring the progress of those other spirits besides Christ who was already perfect, provided a plan and accepted the Volunteer who offered to come to this earth to pay the penalties that would be exacted when those spirits made mistakes and thus committed violations of eternal laws.

The Volunteer was Jesus Christ, and He did that in the pre-mortal councils in Heaven where He was the FirstBorn, and the Beloved Son of the Father who was perfect. Jesus volunteered because of His love for us–the billions of spirits who needed a Savior so that we could experience earth life where we would make mistakes which meant we would certainly sin and would have to otherwise receive just suffering because of those sins.

The infinite atonement provides mercy for us to be cleansed every whit, through the redemption Christ offers. There was not any other way that the balance and equilibrium in the Universe could be maintained and yet allow for the mistakes that needful, progressing spirits would make as they assumed the role of having agency and making choices in this life.

Peace to all, and to you, Anna.

 

[crisco]

Anna,
an excellent book on this is the classic by St. Anselm of Canterbury “Cure Deus Homo” (why God became man). Also, Aquinas’s Summa has a few good chapters on the topic. I can also highly recommend Gary Anderson’s recent book “Sin - a history” - he’s got a few chapters at the end that examine Anselm’s ‘satisfaction’ theory of the atonement. Jesus offers satisfaction (not to be confused with suffering punishment by God). For a different take try looking at some of Rene Girard’s work (Christ’s sacrifice is a sacrifice to end sacrifice) as expounded by Mark Heim in his book “Saved from Sacrifice”. C.S. Lewis also deals with this in a chapter of Mere Christianity (chapter title - the perfect penitent). All great stuff.

The short answer is that God didn’t ‘need’ to do anything, but freely chose this route because He thought it was the absolute best and perfect means to demonstrate His infinite grace/mercy and love. The mechanism is complex indeed.

 

[wmscott]

Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

A Jewish author posed a very important question which I have not been able to answer, and it bothers me that I cannot answer the question.

Question paraphrased:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did anyone have to die for our salvation?

I am a Christian, and I want to be able to answer this question. I believe that God is infinite and that He brought all things into being. So, there cannot be anything before God or any law higher than God. God must surely make the rules. So, I think it is reasonable to ask why Christ had to die.

The O.T. does reveal a point, when God seemed to no longer desire a sacrifice or blood atonement for sins.

Matthew 9: 12 But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

So, I hope someone can help me answer this question:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?

Anna

Just looking at one of your points Matthew 9:13, taken from the Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary
(Menochius) — Mercy, and not sacrifice. Christ here prefers mercy to sacrifice; for, as St. Ambrose says, there is no virtue so becoming a Christian as mercy, but chiefly mercy to the poor. For if we give money to the poor, we at the same time give him life: if we clothe the naked, we adorn our souls with the robe of justice: if we receive the poor harbourless under our roof, we shall at the same time make friends with the saints in heaven, and shall afterwards be received by them into their eternal habitations. (St. Ambrose) — I will have mercy and not sacrifice: these words occur in the prophet Osee, chap. vi. The Pharisees thought they were making a great sacrifice, and acceptable to God, by breaking off all commerce with sinners; but God prefers the mercy of the charitable physician, who frequents the company of sinners; but merely to cure them. (Bible de Vence)

The Haydocks can be a good source to see things put into proper context.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you Anna, I feel that forgiveness hangs on the greatest commandments

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, did he live by the greatest commandments?

Jesus loves God the Father with all of his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself?

When the people of Jeruselam shouted, crucify him; did Jesus forgive them, in order that he should continue to love them as he loved himself? When the soldiers scurged him, and nailed him to the cross, did he forgive them?

It seems that every time Jesus suffered injustice here on Earth, he forgave, in order that he should continue to love the sinners as he loved himself. After the acsencion of Jesus into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each
and every one of us as he loves himself. What kind of a burden do we place on Jesus with our sins?

I guess God could say your sins are forgiven, and he has the power to do this, but would we believe it? Our sins separate us from God, and we might just give up hope if we thought our sins could not be forgiven.

At least we know that on the cross Jesus forgave, and if he can forgive the people who had him killed, then it should give us hope that we can be forgiven also.

Blessings,

Eric

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,
With your permission, I’m going to add a perspective that in a way deals with the question of the “problem of evil”.

As you are aware, Mormons believe that everyone has within their eternal past, a period of time when they existed as an “intelligence”–a spark of individual being that had its own identity. Spirits were “organized” or formed from intelligences, and God the Father desired to provide a plan whereby the spirits whom He had organized could progress toward becoming perfected beings. His plan was perfect. His plan retained the balance that is in the Universe–the balance that included a law of justice and penalties when any spirit in the Universe violates the agency of other spirits or violates the innate goodness that God desires to originate from the actions of those spirits whom He has organized.

**The penalties for violations of laws must be paid, somehow, in order for the Universe to remain in a balanced condition–an equilibrium. **The Father, desiring the progress of those other spirits besides Christ who was already perfect, provided a plan and accepted the Volunteer who offered to come to this earth to pay the penalties that would be exacted when those spirits made mistakes and thus committed violations of eternal laws.

**The Volunteer was Jesus Christ, and He did that in the pre-mortal councils in Heaven where He was the FirstBorn, and the Beloved Son of the Father who was perfect. **Jesus volunteered because of His love for us–the billions of spirits who needed a Savior so that we could experience earth life where we would make mistakes which meant we would certainly sin and would have to otherwise receive just suffering because of those sins.

The infinite atonement provides mercy for us to be cleansed every whit, through the redemption Christ offers. **There was not any other way that the balance and equilibrium in the Universe could be maintained and yet allow for the mistakes that needful, progressing spirits would make as they assumed the role of having agency and making choices in this life.
**
Peace to all, and to you, Anna.

Parker, I appreciate your viewpoint. You say there was no other way. So, does that mean you believe God was bound by something higher than Himself, which made it impossible for Him to forgive sins any other way?

Anna,
an excellent book on this is the classic by St. Anselm of Canterbury “Cure Deus Homo” (why God became man). Also, Aquinas’s Summa has a few good chapters on the topic. I can also highly recommend Gary Anderson’s recent book “Sin - a history” - he’s got a few chapters at the end that examine Anselm’s ‘satisfaction’ theory of the atonement. Jesus offers satisfaction (not to be confused with suffering punishment by God). For a different take try looking at some of Rene Girard’s work (Christ’s sacrifice is a sacrifice to end sacrifice) as expounded by Mark Heim in his book “Saved from Sacrifice”. C.S. Lewis also deals with this in a chapter of Mere Christianity (chapter title - the perfect penitent). All great stuff.

The short answer is that God didn’t ‘need’ to do anything, but freely chose this route because He thought it was the absolute best and perfect means to demonstrate His infinite grace/mercy and love. The mechanism is complex indeed.

crisco:

Thanks for all the reference material. I will check into these.

Thank you for giving a direct answer: "God didn’t ‘need’ to do anything, but freely chose this route because He thought it was the absolute best and perfect means to demonstrate His infinite grace/mercy and love. "

In a previous Post, I said to DOShea: So, should we answer our Jewish friends by saying that God chose human sacrifice (Christ as perfect man) as the method for the atonement of sins? That sounds rather disturbing, when I say it out loud–especially in light of pagan practices.

Does the choice of human sacrifice, as the method of atonement, sound disturbing to you in any way? I’m just wondering.

Anna

 

[crisco]

Anna,
you’ve got to remember who’s doing the evil act of injustice here - it’s the Romans and the Jewish leadership (Herod and the Sanhedrin). They’re putting to death an innocent man. God uses it for His reconciling purpose.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, I appreciate your viewpoint. You say there was no other way. So, does that mean you believe God was bound by something higher than Himself, which made it impossible for Him to forgive sins any other way?

Anna

Anna,
As you may be aware, Mormons believe that God uses His power in the Universe in a completely truthful way. He abides by truth, and that is consistent with His power. The Universe is an organized system where truth exists, and where equilibrium exists. This is why current science is trying to understand dark matter–equations have to balance in a balanced system, and the Universe is a balanced system.

Whether God ordained that system or whether He is “bound by something higher than Himself” would not matter based on the inherent balance within this system of our Universe. An off-balance or arbitrary system would not work. It could not work.

Also, the effective granting of agency to organized spirits would cease to be effective if the law of justice were not in place in the Universe. Spirits would cease to have a complete trust that their choices and actions would have a certain result. They would come to believe their choices and actions have an arbitrary result, depending upon the whims of God. That kind of system would not work to allow for the progress of those spirits. Faith could not be exercised, and covenants could not be made with any sense of assurance by either party to the covenant.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Just looking at one of your points Matthew 9:13, taken from the Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary
(Menochius) — Mercy, and not sacrifice. Christ here prefers mercy to sacrifice; for, as St. Ambrose says, there is no virtue so becoming a Christian as mercy, but chiefly mercy to the poor.

For if we give money to the poor, we at the same time give him life: if we clothe the naked, we adorn our souls with the robe of justice: if we receive the poor harbourless under our roof, we shall at the same time make friends with the saints in heaven, and shall afterwards be received by them into their eternal habitations. (St. Ambrose) — I will have mercy and not sacrifice: these words occur in the prophet Osee, chap. vi.

The Pharisees thought they were making a great sacrifice, and acceptable to God, by breaking off all commerce with sinners; but God prefers the mercy of the charitable physician, who frequents the company of sinners; but merely to cure them. (Bible de Vence)

The Haydocks can be a good source to see things put into proper context.

wmscott:

I really appreciate this commentary. I was hoping for something from the ECF. So, thank you for taking the time to quote this.

So, St. Ambrose is saying that the Sacrifice, of which Jesus spoke, was not the Sacrifice for atonement? I can see how Matthew 9:13 could be interpreted this way.

However, I thought Jesus was quoting Hosea, which names “burnt offerings,” specifically:

Hosea 6:6 (ESV):

6For(A) I desire steadfast love[a] and not sacrifice,
(B) the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Footnotes:

a. Hosea 6:6 Septuagint mercy

Cross references:

A. Hosea 6:6 : Cited Matt 9:13; 12:7; 1 Sam 15:22
B. Hosea 6:6 : Hosea 2:20

**Hosea 6: **4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Jesus does speak of mercy and not sacrifice again, and this passage might indicate the kind of Sacrifice St. Ambrose discussed:

Matthew 12: 1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.”

3He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?

5Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? 6I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7And if you had known what this means, **‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ **you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."

Yet, things turn in a different direction In Mark. We find Christ agreeing that loving God and your neighbor is “much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” So, Christ is naming “burn offerings.”

**Mark 12: **29 Jesus answered, "The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these."

32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

I think Matthew 9:13, Matthew 12:7, and Mark 12:33 were the only instances in the NT, in which Christ mentioned “Sacrifice.” Someone, correct me, if I am wrong.

Still, throughout the NT, Jesus forgave sins, without instructing those he forgave to go and make a sacrifice to complete the forgiveness.

I think if we isolate Matthew 9:13, we could interpret this as a reference to a “non-atonement” Sacrifice, but that doesn’t seem to fit Mark 12:33, or the OT Scriptures to which Jesus refers.

Can you comment further?

Anna

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Remember that God orders blood sacrifice throughout the OT. The Torah, especially in Leviticus 16 (to quote one example), instructs the order of blood sacrifice that was to be made to forgive the Israeli people of their sins. They were still expected to live godly lives, and they could be forgiven for their sins outside of the blood atonement ceremonies. So if your Jews ask why Jesus had to die or why God can’t just forgive everyone, ask them in return why - during pre-Temple-destruction Judaism - God couldn’t just forgive everyone and had to have lambs and rams die?

You ask why did Christ forgive people of their sins before the crucifixion? It was to show who He was. We know He wasn’t a sinner, but this would be interesting if He was merely a man. Even the Pharisees wonder what kind of person would do this. Christ could forgive sins because He was God and had the power to do so, and was beginning His earthly ministry.

But I think you are limiting the scope of the crucifixion: Christ’s death was more than simply forgiving everyone of sins, although that is the focal point that springs from it. Mankind had sinned and fallen into a sinful nature that separated them from God. In both body and soul, the people were desolate. When they died they returned to Sheol, the underworld where good and bad went. Man could worship God, but mankind and God were not united as they were in the Garden.

The Incarnation changed this. The Son of the Trinity entered into our sinful nature, taking on our sinful flesh, and living life not only with a full divinity but a full humanity. He experienced every temptation and encountered every problem. Then it finally came time for His crucifixion, which He accepted as the will of the Father. When He died He descended into Sheol where all men go - but now something different happened. The gates could not comprehend His full divinity, and the gates were shattered, and all who wished to follow God ascended to Paradise. Now those who follow Christ are able to be free of the death that separates us from God, and are reunited as Adam was in the Garden. That image of God - mankind - was made capable to be untarnished. As Orthodox liturgy says, Christ is risen from the dead “by death trampling down death.”

So, why did Christ die? He died so we could live.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Greetings and peace be with you Anna, I feel that forgiveness hangs on the greatest commandments

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, did he live by the greatest commandments?

Jesus loves God the Father with all of his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself?

When the people of Jeruselam shouted, crucify him; did Jesus forgive them, in order that he should continue to love them as he loved himself? When the soldiers scurged him, and nailed him to the cross, did he forgive them?

It seems that every time Jesus suffered injustice here on Earth, he forgave, in order that he should continue to love the sinners as he loved himself. After the acsencion of Jesus into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each
and every one of us as he loves himself. What kind of a burden do we place on Jesus with our sins?

I guess God could say your sins are forgiven, and he has the power to do this, but would we believe it? Our sins separate us from God, and we might just give up hope if we thought our sins could not be forgiven.

At least we know that on the cross Jesus forgave, and if he can forgive the people who had him killed, then it should give us hope that we can be forgiven also.

Blessings,

Eric

Eric,

Interesting viewpoint.

I am thinking about your answer: “God could say your sins are forgiven, and he has the power to do this, but would we believe it?”

Do you think, we could only believe our sins are forgiven, by the knowledge that Christ forgave, even those who Crucified Him?

Christ did, indeed, reveal the great love that God has for us, by showing forgiveness in the midst of great suffering on the cross. So, you make an interesting point.

You said, “After the ascension of Jesus into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each and every one of us as he loves himself.”

So, Jesus could not love us, as He loves Himself, unless he forgives us? That would mean that in order to love all mankind, He would have to forgive all the sins of mankind. This idea seems to touch on universal salvation. Was that your intention?

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Remember that God orders blood sacrifice throughout the OT. The Torah, especially in Leviticus 16 (to quote one example), instructs the order of blood sacrifice that was to be made to forgive the Israeli people of their sins. They were still expected to live godly lives, and they could be forgiven for their sins outside of the blood atonement ceremonies. So if your Jews ask why Jesus had to die or why God can’t just forgive everyone, ask them in return why - during pre-Temple-destruction Judaism - God couldn’t just forgive everyone and had to have lambs and rams die?

You ask why did Christ forgive people of their sins before the crucifixion? . . .Christ could forgive sins because He was God and had the power to do so, and was beginning His earthly ministry.

. . .So, why did Christ die? He died so we could live.

Hello Mr. Wolf,

I appreciate your comments (as always.)

Of course, I am aware of the blood sacrifice required by the laws of Leviticus, and that the Jews were expected to live Godly lives in addition to sacrifice.

However, I don’t think asking the Jews “why - during pre-Temple-destruction Judaism - God couldn’t just forgive everyone and had to have lambs and rams die,” will satisfy the issue of why the perfect human sacrifice of Christ (as God/man) was required.

The Torah, A Modern Commentary, Revised Edition, Union for Reformed Judaism, Sacrificial Offerings: An Introduction, Talmudic Views on Sacrifices, Page 677:
(Emphasis is mine throughout.)

Shortly after the Temple was destroyed, it is said, the aged Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai visited its ruins in the company of his pupils. One of them bewailed the cessation of the rites that provided atonement for sin.

The old sage replied, "Do not grieve, my son. We have a means of atonement that is equal to sacrifice–the doing of kind deeds. For it is said, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ (Hos. 6:6). A few centuries later Rabbi Isaac declared that prayer takes precedence over sacrifice.

Still more remarkable is a parable of Rabbi Levi, a contemporary of Rabbi Isaac: The son of a king became mentally confused and fell into the habit of eating carrion. Thereupon the king ordered his servants to serve kosher meat from the same kinds of animals at his own table so that the son might regain the habit of eating proper food.

Similarly, said Rabbi Levi, Israel became addicted to idolatry while in Egypt; and in the wilderness they still brought offerings to the goat-demons. Thereupon, God said, 'Let them bring regular sacrifices to Me, and they will be protected from the tendency to idolatry.'

The Torah, A Modern Commentary, Revised Edition, Union for Reformed Judaism, Sacrificial Offerings: An Introduction, Medieval Views on Sacrifices, Page 677:
(Emphasis is mine throughout.)

Rabbi Levi’s parable may have suggested the rationalistic explanation of sacrifice offered by the philosopher Moses Maimonides, (1135-1204). That famous thinker held that the **sacrificial legislation was a concession to human frailty. In ancient times, sacrifice was the universal practice; the Hebrews who left Egypt could not imagine a religion without it.

Had they not been permitted to bring offerings to the true God, they would inevitably have sacrificed to other deities. Biblical sacrifice was the means by which they were weaned away from heathenism and instructed in true beliefs.

** Moreover, the animals designated for sacrifice were those held sacred by Hindus, Egyptians, and Sabeans, which were never slaughtered by those peoples. Thus the Israelite sacrifices were a repudiation of pagan superstition.

This Modern Commentary of the Torah does include more conservative views of sacrifice within Judaism. However, the quotes I gave above deal with Hosea 6:6, which is one of the passages of our topic. It is also the passage Jesus quoted in Matthew 9:13.

There are OT Scripture that could be viewed as a “weaning away from heathenism,” as the Jewish commentary suggests:

Micah 6: 6 “With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” 8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

**Proverbs 21: **2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart. 3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Hosea 6: 4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Jeremiah 7: 22 For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23But this command I gave them: 'Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.'

You said, “Christ could forgive sins because He was God and had the power to do so.” That brings us back to our question: If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation? Why doesn’t God forgive our sins, as Christ forgave sins, during His ministry? Why was a human sacrifice required?

Anna

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

This Modern Commentary of the Torah does include more conservative views of sacrifice within Judaism. However, the quotes I gave above deal with Hosea 6:6, which is one of the passages of our topic. It is also the passage Jesus quoted in Matthew 9:13.

There are OT Scripture that could be viewed as a “weaning away from heathenism,” as the Jewish commentary suggests…

These are interesting takes, however they do not address what I think are some key issues: 1) if the sacrifices were not necessary, why were they continued even into Christ’s time (the pool that lepers and handicapped bathed in, found in John 5, was where they washed the sacrificial animals), and 2) if the sacrifices were merely ceremonial, why did God command them with the explicit statement that they would involve the forgiveness of sins? For Leviticus 16:34, following the lengthy description of the blood atonement ceremony, states:

“And this shall be a statute forever for you, that atonement may be made for the people of Israel once in the year because of all their sins.” And Moses did as the LORD commanded him. [Lev 16:34]

You see when one looks at ancient Judaism in the context of modern Judaism, sans those sacrifices, then of course the death of Christ seems ridiculous. Looked in that context however, we understand that Christ was the final and last sacrifice, and that it would no longer be a yearly thing but a sacrifice good for the rest of the age (Heb 7:27), and the sacrifice would be made on the cross of Calvary.

You said, “Christ could forgive sins because He was God and had the power to do so.” That brings us back to our question: If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation? Why doesn’t God forgive our sins, as Christ forgave sins, during His ministry? Why was a human sacrifice required?

I actually answered much of that in my previous post:

Christ’s forgiveness of the lepers, paralytics, and others were done so as to identify who He was, just as was His healing of the sick and His command over nature (calming the storm, walking on water, etc). It was also to bring about His ministry of forgiveness of sins, which would climax on the cross, the resurrection, and the Great Commission.

Christ’s death, furthermore, was to free us from our own death. You see, many people harp on the crucifixion and passion of our Lord (which I blame partially on Passion-frenzy western thought), and forget all about the Resurrection that followed. The Gospels don’t end with “And Jesus drew his last breadth,” in fact they continue on to the raising of the dead and the resurrection of Christ.

It also forgets the very nature of Christ, namely the hypostatic union: Christ was fully man, fully God; Christ had a human nature and a divine nature; Christ had a human will and divine will. He wasn’t half-man, half-God, nor was He simply a man or simply a God. If all it took was a man to die, then anyone could have saved our sins. However, because loved mankind so much, God entered into our sinful nature, took on our sinful flesh, and lived a life of excellence with His divinity present. Only in this method could, through death and resurrection, our flesh and soul be unified with God again, because, through the partaking of Christ’s flesh with the glory of the Father, could our own flesh be one with God again. This is why Christ died - so that through death could death be conquered, and through death could the Resurrection happen, and therefore the Resurrection of all who believe.

On that note, perhaps we come to the most proper response to the question. Christ Himself said, “Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13), and He identified Himself as “the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep” (John 10:11). The apostle John himself wrote: “By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us…” (1 John 3:16).

At the risk of sounding like a bad bumper sticker, we must look to this and respond: why did Christ die? Because He loved you and I that much.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you Anna,

I am thinking about your answer: “God could say your sins are forgiven, and he has the power to do this, but would we believe it?”

Maybe another way to look at this would be, I can go out and do a bit of murdering and thieving, and I am going to be forgiven by God, there is no price to pay, as long as I don’t end up in prison.

But knowing that Jesus had to die, so that my sins would be forgiven, hangs on my conscience, there was a huge price to pay for my sins.

So, Jesus could not love us, as He loves Himself, unless he forgives us?

Possibly in the same way I might cause you to break the second greatest commandment. If I stole your money and spent it, and if I refused to apologise, or give it back, then your love for me stops, unless you can forgive me.

That would mean that in order to love all mankind, He would have to forgive all the sins of mankind. This idea seems to touch on universal salvation. Was that your intention?

It is said that nothing can stand in the way of God’s love for us, Jesus died that all sins would be forgiven, so it does sound like that, but there are also many references to eternal damnation.

Scriptures seem to keep us searching and struggling.

Blessings

Eric

 

[ParkerD]

Anna,
As you may be aware, Mormons believe that God uses His power in the Universe in a completely truthful way. He abides by truth, and that is consistent with His power. The Universe is an organized system where truth exists, and where equilibrium exists. This is why current science is trying to understand dark matter–equations have to balance in a balanced system, and the Universe is a balanced system.

Whether God ordained that system or whether He is “bound by something higher than Himself” would not matter based on the inherent balance within this system of our Universe. An off-balance or arbitrary system would not work. It could not work.

Also, the effective granting of agency to organized spirits would cease to be effective if the law of justice were not in place in the Universe. Spirits would cease to have a complete trust that their choices and actions would have a certain result. They would come to believe their choices and actions have an arbitrary result, depending upon the whims of God. That kind of system would not work to allow for the progress of those spirits. Faith could not be exercised, and covenants could not be made with any sense of assurance by either party to the covenant.

Anna,
Another aspect of the situation of a balanced system is with energy fields in the Universe and in humankind as physical beings. If you have read about holistic medicine, you will be aware of energy fields in the body and the need to alleviate negative energy. Sinful actions send out negative energy and also bring negative energy into the human body. Repentance helps heal or neutralize those negative energy sources. Christ is the perfect healer because the atonement allowed for the Universe to remain in balance while that negative energy sent out by sinful actions is acted upon and neutralized by a counter energy source, which is the atonement of Christ through the suffering He took upon Himself. He is the bringer of healing the the bringer of peace because He has that power within Himself.

Have a peaceful day.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Mormons believe that everyone has within their eternal past, a period of time when they existed as an** “intelligence”–a spark of individual** being that had its own identity. Spirits were “organized” or formed from intelligences, and God the Father desired to provide a plan whereby the spirits whom He had organized could progress toward becoming perfected beings. His plan was perfect.

His plan retained the balance that is in the Universe–the balance that included a law of justice and penalties when any spirit in the Universe violates the agency of other spirits or violates the innate goodness that God desires to originate from the actions of those spirits whom He has organized.

The penalties for violations of laws must be paid, somehow, in order for the Universe to remain in a balanced condition–an equilibrium. **The Father, desiring the progress of those other spirits besides Christ who was already perfect, provided a plan and accepted the Volunteer who offered to come to this earth to pay the penalties that would be exacted when those spirits made mistakes and thus committed violations of eternal laws. **

The Volunteer was Jesus Christ, and He did that in the pre-mortal councils in Heaven where He was the FirstBorn, and the Beloved Son of the Father who was perfect. Jesus volunteered because of His love for us–the billions of spirits who needed a Savior so that we could experience earth life where we would make mistakes which meant we would certainly sin and would have to otherwise receive just suffering because of those sins.

The infinite atonement provides mercy for us to be cleansed every whit, through the redemption Christ offers. There was not any other way that the balance and equilibrium in the Universe could be maintained and yet allow for the mistakes that needful, progressing spirits would make as they assumed the role of having agency and making choices in this life.

Parker, I appreciate your viewpoint. You say there was no other way. So, does that mean you believe God was bound by something higher than Himself, which made it impossible for Him to forgive sins any other way?

. . God uses His power in the Universe in a completely truthful way. He abides by truth, and that is consistent with His power. The Universe is an organized system where truth exists, and where equilibrium exists. This is why current science is trying to understand dark matter–equations have to balance in a balanced system, and the Universe is a balanced system.

Whether God ordained that system or whether He is “bound by something higher than Himself” would not matter based on the inherent balance within this system of our Universe. An off-balance or arbitrary system would not work. It could not work.

Still want to know: Do you believe God was bound by something higher than Himself, which made it impossible for Him to forgive sins any other way?"

Also, the effective granting of agency to organized spirits would cease to be effective if the law of justice were not in place in the Universe. Spirits would cease to have a complete trust that their choices and actions would have a certain result. They would come to believe their choices and actions have an arbitrary result, depending upon the whims of God. That kind of system would not work to allow for the progress of those spirits. Faith could not be exercised, and covenants could not be made with any sense of assurance by either party to the covenant.

**. .Another aspect of the situation of a balanced system is with energy fields in the Universe and in humankind as physical beings. **If you have read about holistic medicine, you will be aware of energy fields in the body and the need to alleviate negative energy. Sinful actions send out negative energy and also bring negative energy into the human body. Repentance helps heal or neutralize those negative energy sources. Christ is the perfect healer because the atonement allowed for the Universe to remain in balance while that negative energy sent out by sinful actions is acted upon and neutralized by a counter energy source, which is the atonement of Christ through the suffering He took upon Himself. He is the bringer of healing the the bringer of peace because He has that power within Himself.

I agree that Christ is the perfect healer. However, my agreement ends there. Your ideas enter the realm of the occult, and its many practices–one is Reiki–sometimes used in “Holistic Medicine,” as a type of “healing energy.”

I do not agree with your statement, “Repentance helps heal or neutralize those negative energy sources.” You are assigning power to a source apart from God.

I think the act of repentance and forgiveness has everything to do with the Triune God/Trinity, which includes the saving atonement of Christ. If is far more complicated than “energy sources.”

Defining the atonement of Christ, as a “counter energy source,” contradicts the traditional view of Christianity. At least, it seems that way to me. Perhaps other Christians would see it differently. Would other Christian forum members comment on this?

I ask the question of why Christ had to die, being myself, a Christian who believes in the saving atonement of Christ. I am trying to deepen my understanding of the “why” for the benefit of my Jewish friends, and others who do not accept Christianity.

I am asking questions, that non-believers ask–questions I would like to be able to answer. I realize I am asking for a definition, that may not be within the realm of my human understanding.

I disagree with “energy sources” as an answer to why Christ had to die for our sins.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Greetings and peace be with you Anna, I feel that forgiveness hangs on the greatest commandments

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, did he live by the greatest commandments?

Jesus loves God the Father with all of his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself?

When the people of Jeruselam shouted, crucify him; did Jesus forgive them, in order that he should continue to love them as he loved himself? When the soldiers scurged him, and nailed him to the cross, did he forgive them?

It seems that every time Jesus suffered injustice here on Earth, he forgave, in order that he should continue to love the sinners as he loved himself. After the acsencion of Jesus into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each
and every one of us as he loves himself. What kind of a burden do we place on Jesus with our sins?

I guess God could say your sins are forgiven, and he has the power to do this, but would we believe it? Our sins separate us from God, and we might just give up hope if we thought our sins could not be forgiven.

At least we know that on the cross Jesus forgave, and if he can forgive the people who had him killed, then it should give us hope that we can be forgiven also.

Blessings, Eric

Greetings and peace be with you Anna,

I am thinking about your answer: “God could say your sins are forgiven, and he has the power to do this, but would we believe it?”

Eric,

You have a very interesting viewpoint.

Just trying to imagine what Christ suffered, does definitely affect the way I feel about sin. It does affect the way I live my life. Though Protestant, I do not believe in OSAS. The way we live is a testament to what we believe—indeed, “faith without works is dead.”

I will ponder your words. I seem to be doing a lot of “pondering” lately.

I think what is interesting about starting this Thread, is that I asked the question of why Christ had to die, in order to be able to answer questions from my Jewish friends. However, I am receiving unexpected benefits in the answers I am receiving. It is causing me to really think about the sacrifice of Christ in a new way and on a much deeper level.

I still need to answer Mr. Wolf’s last post.

I appreciate all who have contributed to this Thread, and welcome more comments.

Respectfully,
Anna

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you Anna,

The following is just a collection of words to challenge the mind to think, and I cannot make any claims from these words.

Here is a child like and yet profound way to test the power of the greatest commandments further; when looking for a purpose for the creation of the universe and life.

Did God have a complete plan for the creation of everything, did he think ahead? Were Christ’s life, death and resurrection planned before the creation of the universe began?

To search for a deeper meaning, was Christ freely given the choice to accept his sacrifice before the creation of the universe began?

Would it mean that the Father had a purpose for man so great, that creation could not be achieved in any lesser way?

What purpose can be so great, that it would compel God to create the universe and life, knowing in advance that his son would have to die?

Would it be to forgive us our sins, or can there be something greater?

Challenge your mind to find a greatest good purpose for the creation of the universe; by searching for answers to three questions.

What greatest thing can God create?

God could create all the stars and planets of the universe; he then becomes God the builder.
God could create a whole variety of life with almost no intelligence like plants; he now becomes God the gardener’
God could create life with more intelligence but if the knowledge is limited he has now created the animal kingdom. He now becomes God the farmer.
God could create life in his own image, a life that could understand him. Can God create anything greater than life in his own image, does he now become God the Father.
Does the greatest thing that God creates, depend on the relationship that he can have with them?

What greatest purpose can God have to create children in his own image?

Could love be the greatest reason for God to create children?
Could the ultimate God be a God who loves in the greatest way?

God willingly loves all of mankind as he loves HIMSELF.

Can there be any greater reason to create children, even for God, can God love us more than he loves himself?

To find a greatest purpose for all God’s children.

What greatest purpose could God set for humanity? Would it be for everyone to turn to His kind of religion and pray the way that he stipulates, or would it be to banish poverty, gain intellectual superiority, conquer sickness and death, and subdue the universe or is there more?

If the greatest reason God could have to create mankind, is to love us, as he loves himself, then God could create mankind, with the freedom to return God’s love

All of mankind to be created with the freedom to love God the creator unconditionally, are we given the greatest commandment as a guide for this very purpose?

God willingly loves everyone as he loves himself; do we also need this same freedom to love everyone in the same way, so that the truth can be complete for God and mankind.

All of mankind, to be created with the freedom to love their neighbour; as they love themselves unconditionally; are we given the second greatest commandment as a guide?

Is this how God wants his children to be one? He wants us to love each other as we love ourselves.

In a way, God loves us more than he loves himself, because he was willing to do what was good for us but not good for him (send his Son to die). In a sort of contradicting way, God loves himself more than us, because he knows that he is the greatest thing in the universe and retains the power of heaven or hell over us.

When you ask the question; why did Christ say they are the greatest commandment, can it possibly be because God can do nothing greater?

Could the greatest commandments be a Greatest an Ultimate Truth?

If our greatest purpose for creation is to live by the greatest commandments, then this freedom to love also gives us the choice to do both good and evil.

Are the greatest commandments powerful enough, to compel God to create the universe and life, knowing in advance the costs involved?

We can marvel at the great attention to detail that is evident in everything from the tiniest single cell of life and right up to the giant structures of galaxies. Can you find any greater purpose for all this to exist? Challenge the above statements in your mind in an honest way, test them against any religious beliefs, and test them against any form of logic.

Before creation began did God want to create us in the greatest good way possible and in doing so Christ had to serve man in the greatest way possible.

It seems that not only was Christ a servant to his disciples, but he is also a servant to my needs through his death and resurrection.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

 

[kamalayka9]

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?

Your Jewish friend made the assumption the He had to.

He did not have to suffer for our salvation! He chose to. He *could *have said, “OK, you are all saved,” and that would have been it.

But, love is an act of the will. To show us His great love for us, not only did He, in the deepest sense, ***choose ***in His Will to suffer, but He choose to suffer to the furthest extremes possible, physically, mentally, spiritually, etc.
(meaning no person will ever suffer anywhere *near *as much as He did.)

He chose to suffer to show how much He loves us. And not only that, but He would have suffered for all. . . even if it was to save just *one *soul!

As your Jewish friend this:

If Jesus is *not *the Messiah, as you claim, then why hasn’t God sent a prophet to the Jewish people in almost 2,500 years?

The time from Abraham to Malachi (the last prophet) was about 1600 years, and the time from Malachi to now is almost 2,500 years.

Don’t worry about it too much, though. It hurts Christ a lot more than it hurts you. Just pray that maybe God will give him the grace of repentance to open his eyes and heart to see Him. And remember, we are channels of grace to others. Sometimes we have to cheerfully take whatever they throw at us, or endure the indifference toward our love, because God may be using you in this way, through your suffering, to give him grace!

 

[ParkerD]

Anna,
You may call all the Eastern medical practices and the healing arts using principles of energy and forgiveness as occultism, but as for me, I think Christ delights when people are healed by forgiving one another and forgiving themselves, even if they don’t realize that He is the ultimate source of the healing. He is the light of the whole world, not just the Catholic and Protestant world. That means He is the ultimate source of righteous light (energy being a form of light) in the entire world. He said “I am the Light of the world,” and meant it.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Part 1 of 2

Mr. Wolf:

Remember, as you read this, that I am a Christian, who believes in the saving atonement of Christ.

In this Thread I am asking questions that the Jewish people have asked, and I’m sure others outside Christianity have similar questions.

Most of the debates and discussions on the forums are between different groups, all claiming to be Christian. So, it can be difficult to imagine how Christianity looks from the outside.

these are interesting takes, however they do not address what i think are some key issues: 1) if the sacrifices were not necessary, why were they continued even into christ’s time (the pool that lepers and handicapped bathed in, found in john 5, was where they washed the sacrificial animals), and 2) if the sacrifices were merely ceremonial, why did god command them with the explicit statement

that they would involve the forgiveness of sins? For leviticus 16:34, following the lengthy description of the blood atonement ceremony, states:

“and this shall be a statute forever for you, that atonement may be made for the people of israel once in the year because of all their sins.” and moses did as the lord commanded him. [lev 16:34]

you see when one looks at ancient judaism in the context of modern judaism, sans those sacrifices, then of course the death of christ seems ridiculous. Looked in that context however, we understand that christ was the final and last sacrifice, and that it would no longer be a yearly thing but a sacrifice good for the rest of the age (heb 7:27), and the sacrifice would be made on the cross of calvary.

. . .sacrificial legislation was a concession to human frailty. In ancient times, sacrifice was the universal practice; the Hebrews who left Egypt could not imagine a religion without it.

“Biblical sacrifice was the means by which they were weaned away from heathenism and instructed in true beliefs.”

These commentaries deal with sacrificial practices that were in existence, before God called His people out of Egypt. So, this is a look at the ancient sacrificial practices–which I would agree were pretty much universal.

I am very familiar with sacrifice for the atonement of sins found in Leviticus–still practiced at the time of Christ, and ending with the destruction of the Temple in 70 C.E. (with a few exceptions.)

Pagan sacrifice preceded Biblical Sacrifice; though, the ideas and intentions of pagan sacrifices were different than those defined in Levitical law.

As previously discussed, one can prove almost anything by “cherry picking” Scripture passages. I think most of us are acutely aware of this practice.

However, that should not be used as a reason to ignore Scripture. We still must acknowledge that there came a point in the OT, when God seemed to emphasize one’s heart and actions–not in addition to sacrifice, but instead of sacrifice. I would recommend reading them in full context, which I realize would be the Bible as a whole. Still, much can be gained from reading Micah, Hosea, etc. to put these passages in context.

Micah 6: 6 “With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” 8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Proverbs 21: 2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart. 3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Hosea 6: 4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Jeremiah 7: 22 For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23But this command I gave them: ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’

Continued–Next Post

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