Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

[Anna_Scott]

Part 2 of 2

Mr. Wolf:

i actually answered much of that in my previous post:
Christ’s forgiveness of the lepers, paralytics, and others were done so as to identify who he was, just as was his healing of the sick and his command over nature (calming the storm, walking on water, etc). It was also to bring about his ministry of forgiveness of sins, which would climax on the cross, the resurrection, and the great commission.

Yes, I agree. However, the fact remains that Jesus did freely forgive sins, before His atonement—and John baptized for the repentance and forgiveness of sins. Sins were being forgiven before Christ was crucified. We must still respond to this issue. Agreed–the ministry of Christ climaxed with the crucifixion and resurrection. For whatever reason, Christ forgave sins, before His work of atonement.

We also have the issue of whether or not the Divinity of Christ remained with Him, when He took the sins of the world upon Himself and died. God did forsake Him. So, was He left as Christ, the man, to accomplish the atonement?

christ’s death, furthermore, was to free us from our own death. You see, many people harp on the crucifixion and passion of our lord (which i blame partially on passion-frenzy western thought), and forget all about the resurrection that followed. The gospels don’t end with “and jesus drew his last breadth,” in fact they continue on to the raising of the dead and the resurrection of christ.

I agree that the resurrection is extremely important, but our current topic deals with why Christ had to die. This remains an issue that most Christians are hesitant to address.

it also forgets the very nature of christ, namely the hypostatic union: Christ was fully man, fully god; christ had a human nature and a divine nature; christ had a human will and divine will. He wasn’t half-man, half-god, nor was he simply a man or simply a god. If all it took was a man to die, then anyone could have saved our sins. However, because loved mankind so much, god entered into our sinful nature, took on our sinful flesh, and lived a life of excellence with his divinity present. Only in this method could, through death and resurrection, our flesh and soul be unified with god again, because, through the partaking of christ’s flesh with the glory of the father, could our own flesh be one with god again. This is why christ died - so that through death could death be conquered, and through death could the resurrection happen, and therefore the resurrection of all who believe.

Yes, but—we still have this “but”—Was that the only way atonement could be accomplished? We still must face the idea that God could chose to forgive our sins without sacrifice; unless we believe there is something higher than God, that made it impossible for Him to forgive sin any other way. I do not believe this is the case.

There is also the issue of the body and blood of Christ. I’m sure your historical studies revealed that this was viewed by some as “cannibalism.” There is also the fact that blood was forbidden in the sacrifices that preceded Christ. Tough issues, but we must face them nonetheless.

on that note, perhaps we come to the most proper response to the question. Christ himself said, “greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends” (john 15:13), and he identified himself as “the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep” (john 10:11). The apostle john himself wrote: “by this we know love, that he laid down his life for us…” (1 john 3:16).

At the risk of sounding like a bad bumper sticker, we must look to this and respond: Why did Christ die? Because he loved you and i that much.

This is a good answer. One could say God chose sacrifice, and Christ willingly offered Himself as the sacrifice, to demonstrate love and forgiveness.

 

[benidict]

Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

A Jewish author posed a very important question which I have not been able to answer, and it bothers me that I cannot answer the question.

Question paraphrased:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did anyone have to die for our salvation?

I am a Christian, and I want to be able to answer this question. I believe that God is infinite and that He brought all things into being. So, there cannot be anything before God or any law higher than God. God must surely make the rules. So, I think it is reasonable to ask why Christ had to die.

The O.T. does reveal a point, when God seemed to no longer desire a sacrifice or blood atonement for sins.

Micah 6: 6 “With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” 8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Proverbs 21: 2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart. 3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Jeremiah 7: 22 **For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. **23But this command I gave them: **‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’
**
Even in the N.T. we find **Jesus quoting **Hosea 6:6:

Matthew 9: 12 But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Hosea 6: 4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6** For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.**

One of the most intriguing passages in the NT reveals Jesus agreeing that loving God and your neighbor is more important than “all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

This seems to be a very strange thing for Jesus to say, since he came as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

Also, throughout the NT, Jesus forgave sins. Not once did he tell those he forgave to go and make a sacrifice to complete the forgiveness.

In addition, John proclaimed Baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

**Luke 3: **2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 1: 4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

So, I hope someone can help me answer this question:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?

Anna

hello dear sister. here is something to think about. in the Hebrew alphabet, the last letter is tau. every Hebrew letter has a numerical value and is also represented by a figure, or a shape. hard to explaine. but the final letter of the Hebrew alphabet is represented by the cross. go find a Hebrew dictionary and check this out. its interesting to note that the new testament claims that Christ is the fulfillment of the law, and the Hebrew alphabet ends with tau, or the cross. hope this helps. May God grant you peace and health.

 

[DOShea]

So, should we answer our Jewish friends by saying that God chose human sacrifice (Christ as perfect man) as the method for the atonement of sins? That sounds rather disturbing, when I say it out loud–especially in light of pagan practices.

Anna, I would not state it this way because it involved more than just “a human sacrifice,” or what has sometimes been called “the Perfect Peter Principle.” If that’s all it took, God could have given Peter the grace to resist sin and let him be crucified as the perfect sinless (unblemished) sacrifice and never have incarnated. What Jesus, as Son of God could do that Peter could not do was to raise himself from the dead and open the gates to heaven. To pay for ALL sins, past, present and future.

The wages of sin is death, death in the spiritual sense. The only way there could be a “perfect” sacrifice was for Jesus to come into this world, human & divine, and pay the ultimate penalty, unjustly, for having done nothing wrong. This demonstrates a number of things; how much God loves us, as detailed in John 3:16; the completeness or fullness of all the sacrifices offered to God before Jesus came, sacrifices that were merely symbolic of redemption from sin requiring the death of something or someone in the place of the sinner to meet God’s justice; and also the promise that because of this supreme sacrifice, all of us can have the promise of eternal life after our human death.

A perfect human sacrifice could only meet God’s justice for one other sinner, whereas a divine sacrifice, God becoming man and suffering the penalty for us, merits an infinite amount of mercy which Christ is oh so willing to bestow on all who come to Him with a contrite heart.

Could He have chosen an alternate way? Anything is possible with God, so I’d answer that with a yes. Could he just sit back and forgive sin? No, because if He did that, He would not be just. Imagine if they just elected a new judge in your local District Court. He starts hearing cases and the first day there are two armed robbers - both found guilty; an arsonist - guilty, and a rapist - guilty. Come time for sentencing, he decides to show mercy and sentences them to zero jail time. Next day he does the same thing. Keeps doing it for a month, no matter what the crime, how guilty the guilty, he sends them all home because he loves them and wants to extend mercy.

How many people in your town would, after 30 days of that, be bragging about how just a judge they have? They wouldn’t. They’d be storming the courthouse to get that guy off the bench. That’s because mercy does not equate to simply turning a blind eye to sin, for that robs justice of Truth.

 

[Anna_Scott]

hello dear sister. here is something to think about. in the Hebrew alphabet, the last letter is tau. every Hebrew letter has a numerical value and is also represented by a figure, or a shape. hard to explaine. but the final letter of the Hebrew alphabet is represented by the cross. go find a Hebrew dictionary and check this out. its interesting to note that the new testament claims that Christ is the fulfillment of the law, and the Hebrew alphabet ends with tau, or the cross. hope this helps. May God grant you peace and health.

I agree that Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets.

I do not know Ancient Hebrew/Paleo-Hebrew. However, at best, the tau appears as a “leaning cross.” I know that certain groups claim a Messianic connection to the Hebrew language, but I would not accept such claims without doing some very serious research.

Remember, different forms of what we accept as the “cross of Christ” existed in paganism long before Christianity adopted the symbol. For spiritual reasons, I have abandoned iconography–avoiding any “graven image.” Many Christians disagree with me, and that’s okay.

Assumptions about the Hebrew language of the Bible are very “trendy” right now–with “Bible Code” theories, etc.

I know Byzantine_Wolf does see significance in icons, so maybe he would want to comment on this.

Still, claiming the last letter of the Hebrew language is a “cross,” does not answer why Christ had to die or the question of whether or not God could have accomplished salvation another way.

I do appreciate you post. It is an interesting idea.

Anna

 

[josephdaniel29]

Christ had to die to pay the price for our sin against God so we can be brought near to God. So God (the Father) killed God (the Son) to save us from God?

Seems a bit schizophrenic to me, no?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[benidict]

So God (the Father) killed God (the Son) to save us from God?

Seems a bit schizophrenic to me, no?

Yours in Christ
Joe

hi joseph daniel. hate to do this, but in a sense 2nd is correct. without the shed blood of Christ, God would have no choice but to condemn everyone to hell. by His death and ressurection, Christ destroyed the wall of seperation between God and man. He made it possible for all to recieve salvation. so yes we are saved from his wrath at the end of the age. because He actually went thru with what he asked abraham to do. take your son, your only son, and there on the mountain make him an offering for me. paraphrased. this gets incredibly complex due to the trinity. i cannot begin to fathom it. but i think i get where 2nd is coming from. love in Christ

 

[Anna_Scott]

So God (the Father) killed God (the Son) to save us from God?

Seems a bit schizophrenic to me, no?

Yours in Christ
Joe

hi joseph daniel. hate to do this, but in a sense 2nd is correct. without the shed blood of Christ, God would have no choice but to condemn everyone to hell. by His death and ressurection, Christ destroyed the wall of seperation between God and man. He made it possible for all to recieve salvation. so yes we are saved from his wrath at the end of the age. because He actually went thru with what he asked abraham to do. take your son, your only son, and there on the mountain make him an offering for me. paraphrased. this gets incredibly complex due to the trinity. i cannot begin to fathom it. but i think i get where 2nd is coming from. love in Christ

The issue is still why? If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Christ have to die? Is there something higher than God that made it impossible to forgive sins any other way?

Only a few posts have actually touched on the heart of this topic.

I know asking this question takes us out of our comfort zone, as Christians. However, if we are to be a witness to the Jewish people, and others outside Christianity; I think we need to be able to answer the “why.”

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Still want to know: Do you believe God was bound by something higher than Himself, which made it impossible for Him to forgive sins any other way?"

Anna,
You may call all the Eastern medical practices and the healing arts using principles of energy and forgiveness as occultism, but as for me, I think Christ delights when people are healed by forgiving one another and forgiving themselves, even if they don’t realize that He is the ultimate source of the healing. He is the light of the whole world, not just the Catholic and Protestant world. That means He is the ultimate source of righteous light (energy being a form of light) in the entire world. He said “I am the Light of the world,” and meant it.

Parker,

We disagree on the issue of “energy.” However, the “energy” issue is a diversion from the real topic of this Thread.

I will ask you again (3rd time): Do you believe God was bound by something higher than Himself, which made it impossible for Him to forgive sins any other way?"

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Christ have to die.

People are posting all sorts of information–all good and interesting; but few are answering the question of the topic.

Anna

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

However, that should not be used as a reason to ignore Scripture. We still must acknowledge that there came a point in the OT, when God seemed to emphasize one’s heart and actions–not in addition to sacrifice, but instead of sacrifice.

I wouldn’t expect those OT instructions by the prophets to be saying we should emphasize one’s heart and actions instead of sacrifice, as if sacrifice was obsolete, because, as I said earlier, those sacrifices were still being made. Rather, one would say that the OT prophets were trying to remind people what was important: forgiveness and leading a godly life was important, not merely making sacrifices. Jewish society was not committing error in making sacrifices, but they were becoming legalistic in what those sacrifices really meant. It is in the same manner that western Christians who follow solo fide (a distortion of sola fide) misunderstand the purpose of the crucifixion.

Yes, I agree. However, the fact remains that Jesus did freely forgive sins, before His atonement—and John baptized for the repentance and forgiveness of sins. Sins were being forgiven before Christ was crucified.

John’s baptism (and forgiveness) was far different in importance and scope than that of Christ - hence why the apostles rebaptized the followers of John in Acts. Furthermore, if you want to get specific, the Jews already had a method of baptism that forgave sins, but again it served a different purpose than why Christ forgave sins during His earthly ministry (which I already addressed) and what purpose Christ’s baptism served.

We also have the issue of whether or not the Divinity of Christ remained with Him, when He took the sins of the world upon Himself and died. God did forsake Him. So, was He left as Christ, the man, to accomplish the atonement?

Actually that’s not really an issue at all, unless someone is Nestorian or Muslim. Christ was always fully man, fully God - nowhere did His divinity leave Him any more than my humanity could leave me. This is paramount to the crucifixion and Resurrection and Christ conquering death, as I outlined in my previous post.

I agree that the resurrection is extremely important, but our current topic deals with why Christ had to die.

The Resurrection is the fundamental reason for the Passion. If you have the Resurrection without the Passion, we leave out the foretelling of the sacrificial lamb and the sacrifices made by the Jewish Temple, and the concept of atonement with sacrifice; if you have the Passion with the Resurrection, then all you have is a meaningless death. If all Jews are doing is focusing on the death, then you must educate them on the Resurrection. If they refuse to listen and continue asking “why why why” without really addressing what you’ve put forward, then I suggest following the words of the St. Paul:

As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned. [Titus 3:10-11]

Yes, but—we still have this “but”—Was that the only way atonement could be accomplished? We still must face the idea that God could chose to forgive our sins without sacrifice; unless we believe there is something higher than God, that made it impossible for Him to forgive sin any other way. I do not believe this is the case.

Nothing is higher than God, yet perhaps we should admit God’s understanding and purpose is higher than our own, and in continually responding to everything with “but” is attempting to force God down to our level of understanding, which is impossible.

Was it the only way atonement could be accomplished? Given the reasons for our fall, the state we were in, and what kind of relationship with God we had, it was the most fitting. God could have easily created a perfect world, but then what purpose would we serve? As Fulton Sheen once said, God’s aim is not the creation of biological entities, but the development of souls, and in the true Christian way of life that is precisely what we are doing: fighting and struggling to reach Christ, who harkens unto us and gives us strength.

There is also the issue of the body and blood of Christ. I’m sure your historical studies revealed that this was viewed by some as “cannibalism.” There is also the fact that blood was forbidden in the sacrifices that preceded Christ. Tough issues, but we must face them nonetheless.

Blood was not necessarily forbidden, although if one touched blood, especially human blood, one could not partake in certain rituals. However, to suggest that blood was not present in those sacrifices, or not used in certain ways, is false. To return to the Torah:

Then you shall kill the bull before the LORD at the entrance of the tent of meeting, and shall take part of the blood of the bull and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and the rest of the blood you shall pour out at the base of the altar. [Exodus 29:11-12]

This was practice well up onto the time of Christ. It is, in fact, relevant to the crucifixion, for the cross was the alter and Christ’s blood, spilled upon it, was that salvific blood for our sins.

As for the accusation of “cannibalism”…that simply requires education regarding what the Eucharist is. Again, if they aren’t willing to listen and accurately represent our opinion, we can only pray God imparts Grace upon them.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Part 1 of 2

Mr. Wolf,

Though we often disagree, I always enjoy our discussions.

I wouldn’t expect those OT instructions by the prophets to be saying we should emphasize one’s heart and actions instead of sacrifice, as if sacrifice was obsolete, because, as I said earlier, those sacrifices were still being made. Rather, one would say that the OT prophets were trying to remind people what was important: forgiveness and leading a godly life was important, not merely making sacrifices.

Jewish society was not committing error in making sacrifices, but they were becoming legalistic in what those sacrifices really meant. It is in the same manner that western Christians who follow solo fide (a distortion of sola fide) misunderstand the purpose of the crucifixion.

Legalism was indeed a problem, which Christ addressed many times during His ministry. It is still an issue today. The issue of one’s heart was dealt with many times in the OT and many times in the NT. I do not disagree with you.

As Christians, we have the advantage of knowing Christ, and we have an advantage in our acceptance of the NT.

The difference between animal sacrifice and the sacrifice of Christ is clearly stated in the NT:

Hebrews 10:
5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

We start with the knowledge and acceptance of Christ. So, Hebrews 10:5-7 makes sense to us.

Yet, what prophecy in the OT clearly states God desires “a body prepared for Christ,” rather than burnt offerings and sin offerings?

When the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE; I can see how the Jews would eventually look back to the words God spoke through the prophets, saying He desires mercy, rather than sacrifice.

Micah 6: 6 “With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” 8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Proverbs 21: 2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart. 3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Hosea 6: 4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Jeremiah 7: 22 For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23But this command I gave them: ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’

Though, sacrifices continued, until the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE; we see the change in attitudes about sacrifice—at the time of Christ—as demonstrated by the scribe who told Jesus loving God and your neighbor is more important than “all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” Notice the scribe makes no mention of a “perfect body” to be sacrificed instead. Jesus agrees with Him, and tells him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

Mark 12: 28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?”

29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Continued–next post

 

[Anna_Scott]

Part 2 of 2

Mr. Wolf:

John’s baptism (and forgiveness) was far different in importance and scope than that of Christ - hence why the apostles rebaptized the followers of John in Acts. Furthermore, if you want to get specific, the Jews already had a method of baptism that forgave sins, but again it served a different purpose than why Christ forgave sins during His earthly ministry (which I already addressed) and what purpose Christ’s baptism served.

I agree.

I am not elevating John’s ministry above Christ; and I am aware of ritual baptism, already practiced within Judaism prior to John’s baptisms.

I was calling attention to the fact that the NT writers defined John’s baptism as one of “repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” It was not simply a call to repentance.

Actually that’s not really an issue at all, unless someone is Nestorian or Muslim. Christ was always fully man, fully God - nowhere did His divinity leave Him any more than my humanity could leave me. This is paramount to the crucifixion and Resurrection and Christ conquering death, as I outlined in my previous post.

What happened when God forsook Jesus?

The Resurrection is the fundamental reason for the Passion. If you have the Resurrection without the Passion, we leave out the foretelling of the sacrificial lamb and the sacrifices made by the Jewish Temple, and the concept of atonement with sacrifice; if you have the Passion with the Resurrection, then all you have is a meaningless death. If all Jews are doing is focusing on the death, then you must educate them on the Resurrection. If they refuse to listen and continue asking “why why why” without really addressing what you’ve put forward, then I suggest following the words of the St. Paul:

As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned. [Titus 3:10-11]

This Scripture must be kept in the “standby” mode, I see it used, when questions make us uncomfortable or when questions are difficult to answer.

However, I do agree that the resurrection goes with the passion.

I think we, as Christians, are often judgmental and dismissive of the Jewish people. If we care about their salvation, we should at least hear what they have to say; and we should take the time to answer the issues that concern them.

If I wanted to know more about your religion, but told you I have concerns about some of your practices—how would you respond? Would you quote Titus 3:10-11; or would you explain the issues with Christian charity?

Nothing is higher than God, yet perhaps we should admit God’s understanding and purpose is higher than our own, and in continually responding to everything with “but” is attempting to force God down to our level of understanding, which is impossible.

Agreed: Nothing is higher than God; and God’s understanding and purpose is higher than our own. That is a given.

However, I think that every Biblical commentary ever written is at least partially “attempting to force God down to our level of understanding.” In every discussion we have about God, we are trying to understand him according to our human level of understanding. So, I would not use this argument to dismiss our topic.

Was it the only way atonement could be accomplished? Given the reasons for our fall, the state we were in, and what kind of relationship with God we had, it was the most fitting. God could have easily created a perfect world, but then what purpose would we serve? As Fulton Sheen once said, God’s aim is not the creation of biological entities, but the development of souls, and in the true Christian way of life that is precisely what we are doing: fighting and struggling to reach Christ, who harkens unto us and gives us strength.

According to your level of understanding, you answer the question of why Christ had to die by saying it was the “most fitting” way for God to accomplish salvation.

(Why God didn’t create a perfect world, would be a good topic for another Thread.)

Blood was not necessarily forbidden, although if one touched blood, especially human blood, one could not partake in certain rituals. However, to suggest that blood was not present in those sacrifices, or not used in certain ways, is false. To return to the Torah:

Then you shall kill the bull before the LORD at the entrance of the tent of meeting, and shall take part of the blood of the bull and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and the rest of the blood you shall pour out at the base of the altar. [Exodus 29:11-12]

This was practice well up onto the time of Christ. It is, in fact, relevant to the crucifixion, for the cross was the alter and Christ’s blood, spilled upon it, was that salvific blood for our sins.

Beautiful use of allegory. The spilling of blood on the alter is easily seen as symbolic of the blood that Christ shed for us. However, in Levitical Law, the blood of a sacrifice was never to be consumed. So, consuming the blood of Christ is difficult to explain.

As for the accusation of “cannibalism”…that simply requires education regarding what the Eucharist is. Again, if they aren’t willing to listen and accurately represent our opinion, we can only pray God imparts Grace upon them.

No one likes the word; but historically, it has been an issue for more than one group of people.

It is 12:32 a.m. Goodnight All, :yawn:
Anna

 

[agent_grey]

For God to righteously Judge his creation God must become a part of the creation. Being part of this creation means an inevitable death.

The God that creates and does not endure the existance of the created being can not truly judge from a righteous point of view. That god is dispicable and has blasphemied the Holy spirit and shall never be forgiven. Sure he shall never die but shall live his existance knowing that the creation has imagined a morally superior God.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

We disagree on the issue of “energy.” However, the “energy” issue is a diversion from the real topic of this Thread.

I will ask you again (3rd time): Do you believe God was bound by something higher than Himself, which made it impossible for Him to forgive sins any other way?"

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Christ have to die.

People are posting all sorts of information–all good and interesting; but few are answering the question of the topic.

Anna

Hi, Anna,
I have read most of the discussion during the course of this thread and have enjoyed several meaningful aspects of this very deep topic. I think several have tried to answer the question you posed, and have brought up important points.

I also have enjoyed your responses and the probing you have brought to this topic, and being able to look at this from the point of view of a modern Jew. Thanks for showing the concern that you have shown about seeking to explain in a way that will make sense to them.

God is perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, and unconditionally loving, by definition as well as by how He has revealed Himself to be and how we view Him to be.

Given those attributes, He would create a perfect system and would have a purposeful intent with His creation of that system and its order. We live in an ordered system. He could not create an imperfect system, or else being omniscient and omnipotent He would have acted outside of the attributes that make Him God. He acts within the bounds of a perfect Being. To create an imperfect system would be contrary to His nature, so He just would not do that.

If you or your Jewish friends frame such a question with those attributes in mind, then I think several on this thread have given very good reasons that have answered the question. I think you would be able to evaluate alternate approaches to the idea of redeeming a multitude of spirits who were going to sin because of their imperfection, and see how such alternate approaches would fall short of being “perfect” approaches, so one could arrive at the particular means of salvation and redemption through Christ that is the perfect system God has planned and brought about. Alternate approaches, if really thought through to their ultimate consequences, would fall short of perfection and would thus be contrary to His perfect nature.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

We start with the knowledge and acceptance of Christ. So, Hebrews 10:5-7 makes sense to us.

Yet, what prophecy in the OT clearly states God desires “a body prepared for Christ,” rather than burnt offerings and sin offerings?

Actually we offer our bodies as sacrifices to God - not fleshly sacrifices to be consumed by fire or carved with knives, but rather spiritual sacrifices. It is similar to the language of St. Paul, asking us to crucify our flesh. At this moment no prophecies come to mind regarding this, but in many ways it is a combination of what the OT prophets were getting at.

Though, sacrifices continued, until the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE; we see the change in attitudes about sacrifice—at the time of Christ—as demonstrated by the scribe who told Jesus loving God and your neighbor is more important than “all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” Notice the scribe makes no mention of a “perfect body” to be sacrificed instead. Jesus agrees with Him, and tells him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

It doesn’t surprise me. The scribe was asking about commandments, not sacrifices or anything similar. If someone were to ask me the same question, I’d probably respond the way Christ did without ever mentioning the crucifixion.

What happened when God forsook Jesus?

Careful with the wording - remember that at all times Jesus was God.

What happened was two events at once:

• The most important aspect of this event is that Christ is quoting Psalm 22, which begins with “My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?” It’s a Messianic psalm (one of many) that predicts the crucifixion and death of Christ, yet ends with His glorification and the birth of His Church.
• More metaphorically, Christ is showing compassion to all those who feel isolated from God; He is showing that His human nature feels isolation just as it felt fear in the Garden of Gethsemane.

I think we, as Christians, are often judgmental and dismissive of the Jewish people. If we care about their salvation, we should at least hear what they have to say; and we should take the time to answer the issues that concern them.

If I wanted to know more about your religion, but told you I have concerns about some of your practices—how would you respond? Would you quote Titus 3:10-11; or would you explain the issues with Christian charity?

I would treat them exactly as I treat Muslims, all of which have different personalities. To use the Muslims on this board as an example: there are some, like Hadi, who are sincerely interested in what Christians believe; there are some, like famdigy, who are sincerely interested in engaging Christians in honest debate and dialogue; there are others, like planten, who are just going to cause problem, division, and headaches.

We should educate them, that’s what I set out to do. Some are naturally defensive and may be stubborn, others simply may not understand what you are saying. That’s understandable. As St. Paul said to the Corinthians, we plant and water, but it’s God that causes the growth. If they give a response, I respond back with gentleness. However, you will run into those people are are self-condemned and will not even bother to consider what you’ve said. If you run into those people, then no amount of apologetics can change them, and it is best you pray for them but focus your evangelical energies somewhere else while maintaining your calm.

However, I think that every Biblical commentary ever written is at least partially “attempting to force God down to our level of understanding.” In every discussion we have about God, we are trying to understand him according to our human level of understanding. So, I would not use this argument to dismiss our topic.

I wasn’t aware I was trying to “dismiss our topic.” If I was trying to dismiss it, I would not have written on it for so long.

Proper commentary does not seek to bring God down to our understanding, but instruct others in the ways and teachings handed down by God. There is the possibility always of falling into error and committing eisegesis, which proper exegesis seeks to avoid. It is not trying to rationalize the supernatural with overemphasized scholastics, but rather understanding what the supernatural desires of us.

According to your level of understanding, you answer the question of why Christ had to die by saying it was the “most fitting” way for God to accomplish salvation.

I wouldn’t dare to claim I know more than God. Any one who does is deceiving himself, and is only proof of the consequences of eating from the tree in Paradise. And I might add that I didn’t just say it was “most fitting,” but demonstrated why it was most fitting.

Beautiful use of allegory. The spilling of blood on the alter is easily seen as symbolic of the blood that Christ shed for us. However, in Levitical Law, the blood of a sacrifice was never to be consumed. So, consuming the blood of Christ is difficult to explain.

It was difficult even in Christ’s time - remember that many disciples left Him in John 6 when He spoke of it. However, remember that in Jewish culture blood represented life: Christ’s instruction are, in fact, that we accept the life He has from His own body and blood. Remember too this is not animal blood, but the blood of the Risen Savior.

 

[Deconi]

Without His death, all would have been ‘empty’ and ‘superflous!’

God Loves
Love frees
Freedom chooses
Choice is not compelled, tricked, cheated or coerced.

I would caution against ‘suggesting’ that God is held to something higher that required the death of His Son to atone. God does as He Wills and He willed that the ‘Image’ He made was / is worth all that His Son suffered!

Therein you ‘see’ the depths of Eternal Love.

 

[Mosacked]

Anna,

The bible says the life is in the blood when it spoke against the taking of meat with blood in them.

Sin reaps death. To get life, you need blood, the sacrifice of life through the shedding of blood (of the lamb).

Now, you may be asking, since God is so great, why go through all this trouble?

You see the problem is, if everyone is born perfect and totally obedient to God by innate attributes that came with their birth, then where is freedom of choice? We would be mere robots. Unfortunately because we are free to choose (yet lacking the wisdom and subjected to weakness of the flesh), we SIN.

To remove sin, refer to the point I raised earlier - the sacrificial lamb.

Only the just and righteous may live forever. Imagine a world where everyone thinks arrogantly that they know better than their neighbor or are subject to fits of sin, such a world will be chaotic and messy. How can such a world even last? It will self-terminate by nature of its ‘destructive’ orientation.

No man is righteous (because they inherit the original sin and are themselves subjected to sinning because of worldly lusts). The bible repeated this many many times for us. The ONLY righteous man is Jesus (without original sin and subsequent sin, which is why He can live forever). And it is only through Jesus (by baptism unto Him) that we can live forever.

Jesus said ‘I AM THE TRUTH, THE WAY AND THE LIFE. NO MAN GOES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME’.

That declaration basically sums up the answer to your question.

.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you Anna,

---

Forgiveness is at the heart of loving our neighbour as we love ourselves. No other religion gives such an extreme example to its followers of how we should also forgive others.

---

If only we could forgive each other as Christ forgave his enemies, then his death and resurrection would have a greater meaning. Would this world be a kinder place?

---

Blessings

---

Eric

 

[DOShea]

The issue is still why? If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Christ have to die? Is there something higher than God that made it impossible to forgive sins any other way?

This has already been explained to you. God is God; He makes the rules. His rules do not nicely fit into our limited understanding of all that is, because we simply do not understand all there is. That is why some aspects of the faith are called mysteries.

A just God cannot just overlook sin and hand out mercy, for to do that would be to make mockery of His own laws. Justice demands a penalty be paid for those transgressions from the law. So that comes down to three choice when man sins - either he dies, another human dies in his place, or some other third way where a sacrifice so worthy meets not only the payback for that one man’s sins, but meets the payment of ALL sins throughout time. THAT is why Jesus had to incarnate and die for our sins. His life is the only life sinless enough and significant enough to merit the infinite amount of mercy that God can then extend to us. There was no “other way” to gain that except by the Son of God dying and paying the price for all of us.

Could it have happened another way? I dont’ know, maybe, and the sun could be blue and the sky green, but the fact is they aren’t. Speculation will never answer the question why they aren’t, neither will it answer why God chose this way. It’s up to Him, and this is the way He provided for us.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Mr. Wolf:

I am always impressed with your posts. I told you once that you are very wise, and you found that humorous, telling me you are only 25 (if I remember correctly.)

BWolf: You remind me of my son, though he is only 22. I do not say this in a patronizing way. My son is one of few people who can consistently “get the better of me” in a discussion, which usually turns into a debate. He is in his last year of college, majoring in International Business.

When he has spare time, and he is not rock climbing, rafting, etc.; he reads books on physics, mathematics, and philosophy, etc. When he was packing for his summer internship in India (which gives a clue to his fearless sense of adventure, which keeps me praying) he bought Plato’s Republic to read during the 2-day trip to India.

After he left, I ran to the bookstore and bought a copy of Plato’s Republic to read again, myself. I didn’t want my son to get too far ahead of me. LOL. I had even studied Philosophy, when I returned to college–including study at a university in Greece (more than 22 yrs. ago.)

I guess this is the long way of saying that when you and I are engaged in debate, I often feel like I need to “run to the bookstore.” That is a compliment BWolf, and it is a good thing. It keeps me young (young at heart, anyway.)

So, back to our discussion. . .next post.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Part 1 of 2

Mr. Wolf:

We start with the knowledge and acceptance of Christ. So, Hebrews 10:5-7 makes sense to us. Yet, what prophecy in the OT clearly states God desires “a body prepared for Christ,” rather than burnt offerings and sin offerings?

Actually we offer our bodies as sacrifices to God - not fleshly sacrifices to be consumed by fire or carved with knives, but rather spiritual sacrifices. It is similar to the language of St. Paul, asking us to crucify our flesh. At this moment no prophecies come to mind regarding this, but in many ways it is a combination of what the OT prophets were getting at.

I agree that we are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice as revealed in Romans:

Romans 12:
1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

However, Hebrews 10:5-7 deals with the “body of Christ,” sacrificed for our sins.

Hebrews 10:5-7 (ESV): 5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

You said, “At this moment no prophecies come to mind regarding this. . .”

I agree. I am not aware of any OT prophecy that says God desires this “body prepared for Christ,” as a sacrifice.

Again, the Jewish people will consider the words of the Prophets in the OT/Tenakh.

The Levitical sacrifices were given as a method of atonement. By the time we reach the NT, we hear that these animal sacrifices cannot atone for our sins. I’m not sure how to reconcile the two treatments of sacrifice. I do welcome comments.

Though, sacrifices continued, until the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE; we see the change in attitudes about sacrifice—at the time of Christ—as demonstrated by the scribe who told Jesus loving God and your neighbor is more important than “all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” Notice the scribe makes no mention of a “perfect body” to be sacrificed instead. Jesus agrees with Him, and tells him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

It doesn’t surprise me. The scribe was asking about commandments, not sacrifices or anything similar. If someone were to ask me the same question, I’d probably respond the way Christ did without ever mentioning the crucifixion.

True: the scribe asked about commandments. **However, the scribe did say that loving God and your neighbor is more important than whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. **(Mark 12:28-34) Christ agreed with him. Christ did not mention His own purpose of offering the ultimate sacrifice.

I have wondered about this scribe. If this was his only encounter with Jesus, he would not have known that the atonement of Christ was necessary to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

A similar situation appears in the famous parable of the “Good Samaritan” told in Luke.

Luke 10: 25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”

29 But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30 Jesus replied, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side.

32 So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. 34He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him.

5 And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’ 36 Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?" 37He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.”

As with the scribe, what if this was the lawyer’s only encounter with Christ? The lawyer would leave this discussion with Christ believing the requirements to receive eternal life are what is written in the Law: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Again, Christ never mentioned His role as Savior. I can’t say that I understand this. So, I can only imagine how such passages appear to the Jewish people, in considering why Christ had to die.

Continued–next post