A
- Status
C
crisco
Guest
Hi Anna,
re your sixth question:
I think Christ died as a man (not God) - suffering the penalty common to fallen man since Adam - namely death - a death that was owed due to sin. However, Jesus was free from this original sin and yet identified with sinners by enduring its penalty out of obedience/love to God, an obedience/love that (according to Anselm) was an act that merited unlimited reward. Jesus has no need for this reward - so, he freely gives this reward to all that are a part of his family by faith.
re your sixth question:
It’s likely that Jesus is quoting Psalm 22. Here’s the entire Psalm:
- [To the leader: according to The Deer of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.] My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
- O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer; and by night, but find no rest.
- Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.
- In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them.
- To you they cried, and were saved; in you they trusted, and were not put to shame.
- But I am a worm, and not human; scorned by others, and despised by the people.
- All who see me mock at me; they make mouths at me, they shake their heads;
- “Commit your cause to the LORD; let him deliver-- let him rescue the one in whom he delights!”
- Yet it was you who took me from the womb; you kept me safe on my mother’s breast.
- On you I was cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me you have been my God.
- Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.
- Many bulls encircle me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
- they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion.
- I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast;
- my mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.
- For dogs are all around me; a company of evildoers encircles me. My hands and feet have shriveled;
- I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me;
- they divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots.
- But you, O LORD, do not be far away! O my help, come quickly to my aid!
- Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog!
- Save me from the mouth of the lion! From the horns of the wild oxen you have rescued me.
- I will tell of your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
- You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him; stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
- For he did not despise or abhor the affliction of the afflicted; he did not hide his face from me, but heard when I cried to him.
- From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
- The poor shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD. May your hearts live forever!
- All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
- For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
- To him, indeed, shall all who sleep in the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and I shall live for him.
- Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord,
- and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, saying that he has done it.
I think Christ died as a man (not God) - suffering the penalty common to fallen man since Adam - namely death - a death that was owed due to sin. However, Jesus was free from this original sin and yet identified with sinners by enduring its penalty out of obedience/love to God, an obedience/love that (according to Anselm) was an act that merited unlimited reward. Jesus has no need for this reward - so, he freely gives this reward to all that are a part of his family by faith.
C
corban36
Guest
Dear Anna,
I read some of the answers given to your question on why Jesus had to die for our sins and it looks like the correct answer has not been given yet. Although many passages from Scripture were given, nothing in Scripture answers this most important question directly. (We all must keep in mind always that Scripture does not contain all the answers to all our questions.) I truly sympathize with you because this question bothered me for quite some time too. You must be very disappointed because your question has not been answered properly yet. I was extremely lucky to meet a very holy priest 20 years ago who answered this question correctly. He also answered many other important religious questions I had. Below is the correct answer.
Why did Jesus (God) have to die for OUR sins?
The answer is: no one else possessed the necessary “Qualifications” for “The Job”, so to speak. For example, let’s suppose that two army privates get into a fist fight and a visiting Captain from another city gets punched in the mouth by one of the privates while trying to break up the fight. Although the private will certainly be “put on kp” as punishment after he apologizes to the Captain, the Captain in charge of the private - who represents the private’s unit - will also have to apologize to the Captain with the sore jaw - rank for rank - because the private’s apology by itself is not good enough.
Another example, say the queen of England is visiting America and is riding down the street during a parade with the president in a convertible limousine. A heckler in the crowd throws a tomato and hits the queen squarely in the face. Even though the captured heckler has to apologize to the queen for his transgression, the president himself - who represents the American people - will also have to apologize to the queen with the red face - rank for rank - because the heckler’s apology by itself is not good enough.
When Adam and Eve, representing the human race, offended God through their Original Sin of disobedience, their own personal apologies to God were not good enough to atone for their offense. They did not possess the qualifications, the Rank, to properly “apologize” to God. Even if they had apologized continually for all Eternity, prostrated on the ground, it still would not have been good enough. “The Job”, therefore, fell on Christ: the second Person of the Holy Trinity, the One through Whom all things were made. Jesus, being both God (possessing the Divine Rank) and man (representing the human race through His human nature) was the only Person “qualified” to restore mankind’s broken relationship with God. Rank for Rank. And although it was not His fault, Jesus, Our Lord, the One Who gave us the entire universe as our playground to enjoy, willingly endured the humiliations, rejections, terrible sufferings and death, even death on a Cross, because of His tremendous Love for us.
I hope this answers your question.
Juan Novo
I read some of the answers given to your question on why Jesus had to die for our sins and it looks like the correct answer has not been given yet. Although many passages from Scripture were given, nothing in Scripture answers this most important question directly. (We all must keep in mind always that Scripture does not contain all the answers to all our questions.) I truly sympathize with you because this question bothered me for quite some time too. You must be very disappointed because your question has not been answered properly yet. I was extremely lucky to meet a very holy priest 20 years ago who answered this question correctly. He also answered many other important religious questions I had. Below is the correct answer.
Why did Jesus (God) have to die for OUR sins?
The answer is: no one else possessed the necessary “Qualifications” for “The Job”, so to speak. For example, let’s suppose that two army privates get into a fist fight and a visiting Captain from another city gets punched in the mouth by one of the privates while trying to break up the fight. Although the private will certainly be “put on kp” as punishment after he apologizes to the Captain, the Captain in charge of the private - who represents the private’s unit - will also have to apologize to the Captain with the sore jaw - rank for rank - because the private’s apology by itself is not good enough.
Another example, say the queen of England is visiting America and is riding down the street during a parade with the president in a convertible limousine. A heckler in the crowd throws a tomato and hits the queen squarely in the face. Even though the captured heckler has to apologize to the queen for his transgression, the president himself - who represents the American people - will also have to apologize to the queen with the red face - rank for rank - because the heckler’s apology by itself is not good enough.
When Adam and Eve, representing the human race, offended God through their Original Sin of disobedience, their own personal apologies to God were not good enough to atone for their offense. They did not possess the qualifications, the Rank, to properly “apologize” to God. Even if they had apologized continually for all Eternity, prostrated on the ground, it still would not have been good enough. “The Job”, therefore, fell on Christ: the second Person of the Holy Trinity, the One through Whom all things were made. Jesus, being both God (possessing the Divine Rank) and man (representing the human race through His human nature) was the only Person “qualified” to restore mankind’s broken relationship with God. Rank for Rank. And although it was not His fault, Jesus, Our Lord, the One Who gave us the entire universe as our playground to enjoy, willingly endured the humiliations, rejections, terrible sufferings and death, even death on a Cross, because of His tremendous Love for us.
I hope this answers your question.
Juan Novo
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Almost missed this.
(Part 1/2)
In John’s gospel we find Christ affirming that He who has seen Him has seen the Father, which of course is evidence of unity with the Father (along with the Holy Spirit) within the Trinity. Paul’s ministry, while speaking of Christ our Lord and God the Father as separate Persons, does not deny their unity as God Eternal, because Paul is in fact referring to an old Jewish creed known as the Shema, which says, “The LORD our God, the LORD is one” (Deut 6:4). Paul transforms this into a context most Jews (and perhaps even local Gentiles) would have understood, stating that we have one God and one Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 8:6).
This is the focal point of his references to God the Father and our Lord Jesus as individual Persons. However, they are not individual Beings - that is important terminology when discussing the Trinity. Orthodox (big “o” and little “o”) Christianity believes that there is one Being in God, revealed through three Persons in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Again, this terminology has to be remembered and considered.
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. [John 1:18]
No one has seen God the Father, but Christ, the Incarnate Word, being fully God, has seen Him, and has made Him known to us, hence why He says, “If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.” This is explained in John’s gospel, which I quoted earlier.
Now, for your questions…
(Part 1/2)
I think there is confusion here regarding the interaction and roles of the Persons within the Trinity. In fact, both situations - Christ’s preaching regarding the Father and Paul’s ministry regarding salvation - confirm the unity of God and Christ’s unity with the Father.
In John’s gospel we find Christ affirming that He who has seen Him has seen the Father, which of course is evidence of unity with the Father (along with the Holy Spirit) within the Trinity. Paul’s ministry, while speaking of Christ our Lord and God the Father as separate Persons, does not deny their unity as God Eternal, because Paul is in fact referring to an old Jewish creed known as the Shema, which says, “The LORD our God, the LORD is one” (Deut 6:4). Paul transforms this into a context most Jews (and perhaps even local Gentiles) would have understood, stating that we have one God and one Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 8:6).
This is the focal point of his references to God the Father and our Lord Jesus as individual Persons. However, they are not individual Beings - that is important terminology when discussing the Trinity. Orthodox (big “o” and little “o”) Christianity believes that there is one Being in God, revealed through three Persons in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Again, this terminology has to be remembered and considered.
Yes, and the beloved apostle John clarified that statement a bit in his gospel:
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. [John 1:18]
No one has seen God the Father, but Christ, the Incarnate Word, being fully God, has seen Him, and has made Him known to us, hence why He says, “If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.” This is explained in John’s gospel, which I quoted earlier.
Now, for your questions…
Again, let us remember what the situation was and what Jesus really was. Jesus was not simply a man (like Jews and Muslims think) and He was not simply God (as Gnostics think and what some Jews and Muslims misunderstand), but He was both fully man and fully God. As the Incarnate Word, He had a human body with a human will and nature. This human nature ate, slept, breathed, spoke normally, and other human traits. In this human nature, the “God-man” (which is a poorly translated rendition of a much more beautiful word in Greek and Russian) died on the cross.
I answered this earlier in this post.
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Part (2/2)
God is pure love and holiness. Anything else cannot coexist with Him.
However, I would like to refer back to what I said earlier in this thread regarding the flesh of Christ glorified with the Father, which is relevant to Christ’s role as Mediator. Remember that Christ sits at the right hand of the Father in that flesh which was still with Him after the Resurrection. It is through the glorification of that sinful flesh which we too, in our sinful flesh, can be glorified.
To quote some patristics on this:
We hold, moreover, that Christ sits in the body at the right hand of God the Father, but we do not hold that the right hand of the Father is actual place. For how could He that is uncircumscribed have a right hand limited by place? Right hands and left hands belong to what is circumscribed. But we understand the right hand of the Father to be the glory and honor of the Godhead in which the Son of God, who existed as God before the ages, and is of like essence to the Father, and in the end became flesh, has a seat in the body, His flesh sharing in the glory. For He along with His flesh is adored with one adoration by all creation. [St. John Damascene, *An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book IV, Chapter 2]
And for this reason, even after this He speaks, that they might learn that He was still alive, and that He Himself did this, and that they might become by this also more gentle, and He says, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” (Matt 27:46) that unto His last breath they might see that He honors His Father, and is no adversary of God. Wherefore also He uttered a certain cry from the prophet, even to His last hour bearing witness to the Old Testament, and not simply a cry from the prophet, but also in Hebrew, so as to be plain and intelligible to them, and by all things He shows how He is of one mind with Him that begot Him. [St. John Chrysostom, Homily 88 on the Gospel of Matthew]
Most Jews of that time (certainly those “with ears to hear”) would know what Jesus was referring to because of the heavy use of the Psalms in Jewish worship. It would be similar to if my last words were “Amazing grace” - everyone would figure out I was quoting the famous hymn, and not that I saw a woman named Grace who really astounded me (or something equally goofy
).
Furthermore, it would be impossible, as I stated, for God incarnate to cease being God. Picture this: would it be possible for me to lose my humanity - by that I mean my very existence as a human. In order for this to happen, I would either have to become a god or simply cease to exist in time and space. Likewise, how could Christ, whose very existence included a full divinity, cease to be God? It is both impossible and, from a logical standpoint, irrational.
This is where we reach a differentiation between Orthodox theology and popular western theology. The question is not whether or not God allows sin in His presence, but if sin allows itself to exist in God, the perfect example of purity and excellence. The Orthodox concept of paradise and hell, for example, is not that there are different levels of torture or that one has fire and the other doesn’t; rather, there is a river of fire (as described in Daniel’s vision) that flows through paradise and hell. Those who are in paradise are filled with joy by it, and those in hell feel pain from it. Why? That fire is God’s love, and to the holy it is a thing to be enjoyed, whereas to the damned it is a thing to loathe.
God is pure love and holiness. Anything else cannot coexist with Him.
Christ died as the atonement of the sins in His human nature. Remember that I said to save us from death and our sinful nature Christ entered into that sinful nature which was doomed to death. Therefore, God was present at the death, and God was present as Christ, the Incarnate Word, descended to the Pit, and that divinity smashed the very gates open and freed all the dead inside. God was present because Christ was present, and being fully God, God was therefore present.
This is holding to the presupposition that #4 and #5 are compatible and correct.
However, I would like to refer back to what I said earlier in this thread regarding the flesh of Christ glorified with the Father, which is relevant to Christ’s role as Mediator. Remember that Christ sits at the right hand of the Father in that flesh which was still with Him after the Resurrection. It is through the glorification of that sinful flesh which we too, in our sinful flesh, can be glorified.
To quote some patristics on this:
We hold, moreover, that Christ sits in the body at the right hand of God the Father, but we do not hold that the right hand of the Father is actual place. For how could He that is uncircumscribed have a right hand limited by place? Right hands and left hands belong to what is circumscribed. But we understand the right hand of the Father to be the glory and honor of the Godhead in which the Son of God, who existed as God before the ages, and is of like essence to the Father, and in the end became flesh, has a seat in the body, His flesh sharing in the glory. For He along with His flesh is adored with one adoration by all creation. [St. John Damascene, *An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book IV, Chapter 2]
For one, as I said before, it is obvious Christ is referring to Psalm 22. To quote some patristics on this:
And for this reason, even after this He speaks, that they might learn that He was still alive, and that He Himself did this, and that they might become by this also more gentle, and He says, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” (Matt 27:46) that unto His last breath they might see that He honors His Father, and is no adversary of God. Wherefore also He uttered a certain cry from the prophet, even to His last hour bearing witness to the Old Testament, and not simply a cry from the prophet, but also in Hebrew, so as to be plain and intelligible to them, and by all things He shows how He is of one mind with Him that begot Him. [St. John Chrysostom, Homily 88 on the Gospel of Matthew]
Most Jews of that time (certainly those “with ears to hear”) would know what Jesus was referring to because of the heavy use of the Psalms in Jewish worship. It would be similar to if my last words were “Amazing grace” - everyone would figure out I was quoting the famous hymn, and not that I saw a woman named Grace who really astounded me (or something equally goofy
).Furthermore, it would be impossible, as I stated, for God incarnate to cease being God. Picture this: would it be possible for me to lose my humanity - by that I mean my very existence as a human. In order for this to happen, I would either have to become a god or simply cease to exist in time and space. Likewise, how could Christ, whose very existence included a full divinity, cease to be God? It is both impossible and, from a logical standpoint, irrational.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Byzantine_Wolf;5956052**:
. .God is pure love and holiness. Anything else cannot coexist with Him.
Christ died as the atonement of the sins in His human nature. .to save us from death and our sinful nature Christ entered into that sinful nature which was doomed to death. Therefore, God was present at the death, and God was present as Christ, the Incarnate Word, descended to the Pit, and that divinity smashed the very gates open and freed all the dead inside. God was present because Christ was present, and being fully God, God was therefore present.
. .I would like to refer back to what I said earlier in this thread regarding the flesh of Christ glorified with the Father, which is relevant to Christ’s role as Mediator. Remember that Christ sits at the right hand of the Father in that flesh which was still with Him after the Resurrection. It is through the glorification of that sinful flesh which we too, in our sinful flesh, can be glorified.
We hold, moreover, that Christ sits in the body at the right hand of God the Father, but we do not hold that the right hand of the Father is actual place. For how could He that is uncircumscribed have a right hand limited by place? Right hands and left hands belong to what is circumscribed. But we understand the right hand of the Father to be the glory and honor of the Godhead in which the Son of God, who existed as God before the ages, and is of like essence to the Father, and in the end became flesh, has a seat in the body, His flesh sharing in the glory. For He along with His flesh is adored with one adoration by all creation. [St. John Damascene, *An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book IV, Chapter 2]
And for this reason, even after this He speaks, that they might learn that He was still alive, and that He Himself did this, and that they might become by this also more gentle, and **He says, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” (Matt 27:46) that unto His last breath they might see that He honors His Father, and is no adversary of God. **Wherefore also He uttered a certain cry from the prophet, even to His last hour bearing witness to the Old Testament, and not simply a cry from the prophet, but also in Hebrew, so as to be plain and intelligible to them, and by all things He shows how He is of one mind with Him that begot Him. [St. John Chrysostom, Homily 88 on the Gospel of Matthew]
Most Jews of that time (certainly those “with ears to hear”) would know what Jesus was referring to because of the heavy use of the Psalms in Jewish worship.
Furthermore, it would be impossible, as I stated, for God incarnate to cease being God. Picture this: would it be possible for me to lose my humanity - by that I mean my very existence as a human. In order for this to happen, I would either have to become a god or simply cease to exist in time and space. Likewise, how could Christ, whose very existence included a full divinity, cease to be God? It is both impossible and, from a logical standpoint, irrational.
Mr. Wolf:
Thank you for such an in depth treatment of the Eastern Orthodox beliefs-very interesting & helpful.
I do see some striking differences between Orthodox and many Protestant interpretations. You see the NT writings in a very symbolic way. Many Protestants take a more literal approach to interpretation.
I appreciate your direct answer in saying that it would be impossible for Christ’s Divinity to leave Him–that He remained fully God and fully man–even through the crucifixion.
Interesting point: “Paul’s ministry, while speaking of Christ our Lord and God the Father as separate Persons, does not deny their unity as God Eternal.”
This is the first time I have heard the right hand of God is not a place, or that Christ remains in the flesh, which was still with Him after the Resurrection. That does shed light on the Eucharist.
Do Catholics share these views? Anyone want to comment?
I keep saying I am a Protestant with “issues.” I guess I have more “issues” to sort out than I originally thought. :frighten:
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Well… catholics DO share most of the orthodox beliefs… but they are seperate churches for a good reason. But anyway, he explained it well.
How do you feel now? About why he had to die? Do you agree that he HAD to die?
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Anna Scott isn’t necessarily confused about that. She’s just encountering questions from others that she is having a hard time answering.
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Aha, see I didn’t know that! I thought that she herself had a hard time understanding why Christ had to die! Now that I know this I don’t feel so compelled to annoy her!
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Thanks, Mr. Wolf.
Zundrah,Aha, see I didn’t know that! I thought that she herself had a hard time understanding why Christ had to die! Now that I know this I don’t feel so compelled to annoy her!
I started this Thread for the following reason (see my original post):
K
KyivAndrew
Guest
C.S. Lewis’ take on the Perfect Penitent:
But supposing God became a man - suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God’s nature in one person - then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God’s dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God’s dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all."
homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_lewisatone.html
It’s better to read the full chapter on the Atonement and the Perfect Penitent from Mere Christianity.
God Bless,
But supposing God became a man - suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God’s nature in one person - then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God’s dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God’s dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all."
homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_lewisatone.html
It’s better to read the full chapter on the Atonement and the Perfect Penitent from Mere Christianity.
God Bless,
K
KyivAndrew
Guest
Anna, on that question of Jesus feeling forsaken by God, I believe the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen answered best in his classic The Life of Christ:
"… He [Jesus] was denying Himself, for the moment, the light and consolation of the Divinity. Suffering now passed from the body into the mind and soul, as He spoke with a loud voice: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? During this part of the Crucifixion, Our Blessed Lord was repeating the Psalm of David which prophetically referred to Him…The signal feature in the sufferings of Our Lord revealed in the Psalm was His desolation and solitude. The Divine Son called his Father ‘My God’ – in contrast to the prayer which taught men to say ‘Our Father who art in Heaven’.
It was not that His human nature was separated from His Divine nature; that was impossible. It was rather that just as the sun’s light and heat can be hidden at the base of a mountain by intervening clouds, though the peak is bathed in sunlight, so too, in taking upon Himself the sins of the world He willed a kind of withdrawal of His Father’s face and all Divine consolation. Sin has physical effects, and these He bore by having his hands and feet pierced; sin has mental effects which He poured forth in the Garden of Gethsemane; sin also has spiritual effects such as sense of abandonment, separation from God, loneliness. This particular moment He willed to take upon Himself that principal effect of sin which was abandonment." (emphasis mine, pg. 378-9)
I agree wholeheartedly with the good Bishop. Christ had to be tested in every way as our Redeemer, and this included the severe test of feeling Completely Abandoned by God, as above. He overcame this fear with his last words from the cross, but these words, apart from pointing to the promise of the Psalms, also point out that any who carry the cross of feeling completely abandoned by God or complete loneliness or even fear before death need not worry for Christ is with us Always and knows Exactly how we feel, He having undergone the same spiritual agony on the Cross. Just my 2 pennies.
God Bless!
E
Eric_Hyom
Guest
Greetings and peace be with you Anna,
Things to do with the death and resurrection of Jesus, seem so profound, and it has so much meaning beyond what we read at first glance. Every time someone seems challenged, it brings up more questions and keeps us searching, whether we are ten years old; or ninety.
Before Jesus faced his death and resurrection; he prayed that God’s will be done, and not his own. Did he say and do the things, that God the Father needed him to say and do; to inspire and benefit us in some way?
Or did he say the things he felt?
Blessings
Eric
Things to do with the death and resurrection of Jesus, seem so profound, and it has so much meaning beyond what we read at first glance. Every time someone seems challenged, it brings up more questions and keeps us searching, whether we are ten years old; or ninety.
Did Jesus say this because he felt forsaken, or did he say this because God needed him to say this, to give us meaning in some way?
Before Jesus faced his death and resurrection; he prayed that God’s will be done, and not his own. Did he say and do the things, that God the Father needed him to say and do; to inspire and benefit us in some way?
Or did he say the things he felt?
Blessings
Eric
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Great comments for the Catholic perspective!
C.S. Lewis’ take on the Perfect Penitent:
But supposing God became a man - suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God’s nature in one person - then that person could help us. **He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. **You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God’s dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God’s dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all."
homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_lewisatone.html
It’s better to read the full chapter on the Atonement and the Perfect Penitent from Mere Christianity. God Bless,
Anna, on that question of Jesus feeling forsaken by God, I believe the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen answered best in his classic The Life of Christ:
"… He [Jesus] was denying Himself, for the moment, the light and consolation of the Divinity. Suffering now passed from the body into the mind and soul, as He spoke with a loud voice: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? During this part of the Crucifixion, Our Blessed Lord was repeating the Psalm of David which prophetically referred to Him…The signal feature in the sufferings of Our Lord revealed in the Psalm was His desolation and solitude. The Divine Son called his Father ‘My God’ – in contrast to the prayer which taught men to say ‘Our Father who art in Heaven’.
It was not that His human nature was separated from His Divine nature; that was impossible. It was rather that just as the sun’s light and heat can be hidden at the base of a mountain by intervening clouds, though the peak is bathed in sunlight, so too, **in taking upon Himself the sins of the world He willed a kind of withdrawal of His Father’s face and all Divine consolation. Sin has physical effects, and these He bore by having his hands and feet pierced; sin has mental effects which He poured forth in the Garden of Gethsemane; sin also has spiritual effects such as sense of abandonment, separation from God, loneliness. **This particular moment He willed to take upon Himself that principal effect of sin which was abandonment." (emphasis mine, pg. 378-9)
I agree wholeheartedly with the good Bishop. Christ had to be tested in every way as our Redeemer, and this included the severe test of feeling Completely Abandoned by God, as above. He overcame this fear with his last words from the cross, but these words, apart from pointing to the promise of the Psalms, also point out that **any who carry the cross of feeling completely abandoned by God or complete loneliness or even fear before death need not worry for Christ is with us Always and knows Exactly how we feel, He having undergone the same spiritual agony on the Cross. ** Just my 2 pennies.
God Bless!
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
From my original Post:
Does anyone disagree that God could have chosen a different way to forgive sins?
The posts also demonstrate varying views, within Christendom, regarding whether or not Christ’s Divinity left Him during the crucifixion. Even if we, as Christians, come to an agreement on the Divine nature of Christ and the role His Divinity played in the crucifixion; we still have a serious problem in witnessing to our Jewish brothers and sisters.
Even if we explain that God chose to send His son, as the perfect sacrifice for our sins, and we come to an agreement on the Divinity issue; the Jewish people will still ask why Christ had to die----since the Jews do not hold the same belief of original sin, as demonstrated by Chosen People:
Of course, the immediate response from Christians is likely to refer to the “eyes that do not see” and “ears that do not hear.” I am quite certain this is an insult to the Jews.
It is difficult to witness to the Jewish people, when we start with two insults:
I think the wonderful responses I have received, on this Thread, have done much to help me understand my own Christianity; but have failed to answer the Jewish question of why Christ had to die–in considering the vast differences, between Judaism and Christianity, in interpretation of the Torah and the idea of original sin.
Much to ponder,
Anna
In reading through the responses, it seems that most agree that God could have chosen to accomplish our salvation in a different way (since He is God, and He makes the rules). However, He chose to send His Son into the world, as fully God and fully man, to make the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Does anyone disagree that God could have chosen a different way to forgive sins?
The posts also demonstrate varying views, within Christendom, regarding whether or not Christ’s Divinity left Him during the crucifixion. Even if we, as Christians, come to an agreement on the Divine nature of Christ and the role His Divinity played in the crucifixion; we still have a serious problem in witnessing to our Jewish brothers and sisters.
Even if we explain that God chose to send His son, as the perfect sacrifice for our sins, and we come to an agreement on the Divinity issue; the Jewish people will still ask why Christ had to die----since the Jews do not hold the same belief of original sin, as demonstrated by Chosen People:
Christians interpret the Torah in an entirely different way than the Jews. Since God gave the Torah to the Jewish people; I can see why they might not appreciate a Christian “re-interpretation” of their own history with God.
Of course, the immediate response from Christians is likely to refer to the “eyes that do not see” and “ears that do not hear.” I am quite certain this is an insult to the Jews.
It is difficult to witness to the Jewish people, when we start with two insults:
- We take their Torah and tell them they do not understand what it means–original sin being a huge part of the Christian interpretation.
- Then, we insult them by saying they have “eyes that do not see” and “ears that do not hear” (I do realize this is found in Scripture.)
I think the wonderful responses I have received, on this Thread, have done much to help me understand my own Christianity; but have failed to answer the Jewish question of why Christ had to die–in considering the vast differences, between Judaism and Christianity, in interpretation of the Torah and the idea of original sin.
Much to ponder,
Anna
E
Eric_Hyom
Guest
Greetings and peace be with you Anna
Blessings
Eric
Thats a good thing, yes !
Your Jewish friend would probably have to convert to Christianity, beefore the death and resurection would make any sense to him.
Blessings
Eric
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
D
Deconi
Guest
As usual, the most direct answers are glossed over and probably, ignore. In this entire thread, this is the closest to the reason it had to be Christ, and WHY it had to be death.
Thank you, Corban.
P
planten
Guest
This question involves many other questions which may provoke posts from christians. I as a Muslim can say that this matter cannot be understood without a combination reading of BibleNT and the Quran. WE have to discuss whether Jesus was really God and did he say that he was God? Does any God die too?? Jesus used to pray to some one. Does a God pray to any one too?
Did Jesus tell any one to worship him?? All these questions are to be settled before embarking on any major mission. Jesus must say clearly that is God Himself. He must tell every one to worship Him, clearly. This matter of making a God out of a man is at the bottom of all this problem and is quite serious because the Jews and Muslims do not admit it.
The Jews at the time of Jesus, whether rightly or out of enmity, also objected to such things. I do not want to meddle into the christian affairs. People do not like it. I let them go their way happily. But we are also listening and learning. WE do not believe in any original sin and we do not believe that Jesus died on the cross. It was Jesus himself on the Cross, nobody else. He suffered a lot but survived. This is the Muslim answer. If any one wants to learn more, there should be enough proof of that from the BibleNT and Quran.
That would explain the riddle completely as to what really happened to Jesus at Calvary. Baha’is have a difefrent explanation. They say “Jesus died in the body and not in spirit”. We know that everybody dies in body but not in spirit.
Problem is : Jesus was seen walking about a few days after crucifixion. The question is: Did he die and then get up, came back to life?, or he did not die at all. He was not dead?. That is the matter need to be understood. I hope it would not be too difficult to understand the right thing.
Did Jesus tell any one to worship him?? All these questions are to be settled before embarking on any major mission. Jesus must say clearly that is God Himself. He must tell every one to worship Him, clearly. This matter of making a God out of a man is at the bottom of all this problem and is quite serious because the Jews and Muslims do not admit it.
The Jews at the time of Jesus, whether rightly or out of enmity, also objected to such things. I do not want to meddle into the christian affairs. People do not like it. I let them go their way happily. But we are also listening and learning. WE do not believe in any original sin and we do not believe that Jesus died on the cross. It was Jesus himself on the Cross, nobody else. He suffered a lot but survived. This is the Muslim answer. If any one wants to learn more, there should be enough proof of that from the BibleNT and Quran.
That would explain the riddle completely as to what really happened to Jesus at Calvary. Baha’is have a difefrent explanation. They say “Jesus died in the body and not in spirit”. We know that everybody dies in body but not in spirit.
Problem is : Jesus was seen walking about a few days after crucifixion. The question is: Did he die and then get up, came back to life?, or he did not die at all. He was not dead?. That is the matter need to be understood. I hope it would not be too difficult to understand the right thing.
D
Deconi
Guest
You just have to deal with two things;
Islamic texts speak of the prophet (Jesus) being tortured and crucified by the Romans and acknowledge his treatment depicted in ‘The Book’ except his death.
How does he come to be wandering the countryside within a week without his injuries?
The Quran was written AFTER ‘The Book’(Bible) and the Quran still have the Pentateuch, Torah, Talmud, Old Testament and New Testament wrong in multiple places.
How can that be if it is from the all-knowing Allah?
- Status