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gentle_atheist
Guest
To prove to man the gravity of man’s sins and the depth of God’s love for man.
- Status
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Gabriel of 12;
All of the first Christians were Jews who believed in the Messiah of Jesus Kingship and witnessed ( the dead rise) miracles from his divinity. Many Jews who saw these things take place “did not believe” in Jesus death and resurrection because they rejected Jesus and his teachings. Just as Muslims and Jewish tradition continue to do. This revelation of Jesus does not come as a matter of faith or non belief from Jews and Muslims, the revelation of Jesus Christ is rejected by those who deny the crucifixion of Jesus which becomes a stumbling block for those who reject Jesus death and resurrection.
This rejection is a fulfillment of New Testament prophecy from God of those who reject their Savior and King in Jesus Christ. The bible also foretells that every Knee in heaven and on earth and under the earth will one day bow their knee to the name of Jesus. This takes place in Jesus second coming when all of creation will see God and be judged for all eternity.
Jesus did not come to bring Judgement yet in his first revealed coming. Jesus came to save humanity from eternal death seperation from God. Jesus took on our humanity lower than angels “something to be grasped” and revealed the Father through the Son in the Spirit in ONE GOD ETERNAL. Your denial of Jesus full humanity and full divinity is not a rejection of Jesus but a rejection of the power of Our ONE GOD creator and how God works in mysterious ways.
When ever I hear of a biblical character or living person today deny Jesus Christ and his saving work of redemption, neglects and rejects how Much our “Abba Father” in heaven loves us. It is “FAITH” that pleases Our ONE GOD.
It is not difficult for God to reveal himself in a “theophany” a “Rock” a “burning bush” " a whispering wind", “shekinah Cloud” Why do you find it difficult to have faith that “Abba Father” Our One Holy Omnipresent God in heaven Loves you and me that; (John 3:16) “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life”. I would much better believe in God made flesh (JOhn 1:1…the Word is God, Word became flesh vs.14…) today than a rock, burning bush or cloud. Praise be Jesus Christ both now and forever.
John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.” Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”… blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
Peace be with you
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Planten has brought up those same arguments and others in other threads. People have responded to them using scripture and other facts to back up their arguments. He commonly ignores what people say and either argues with someone else or changes the subject, or simply repeats the same argument over and over again. As tempting as it may be, I wouldn’t suggest giving his arguments too much thought, as they will distract from the very reason Anna Scott made this thread.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Gabriel of 12;
Yes I understand what you are saying here. But we must remember that others view these threads who may be new comers or viewers to these “new whispering winds of doctrines” and deceptions to the Truth. No matter in season or out of season the evil one does not rest, nor should we Christians never stop to give an answer for our Hope (1Peter 3:15-20).
We must proclaim Christ crucified until he comes, never forfeiting an answer to the Lies of our adversary that serpent, and never fear our adversary, 1 Peter 3:14 But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them…
So let us "persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfector of faith. FOR THE SAKE OF THE JOY THAT LAY BEFORE HIM HE ENDURED THE CROSS, DESPISING ITS SHAME, AND HAS TAKEN HIS SEAT AT THE RIGHT OF THE THRONE OF GOD. Consider how he endured such OPPOSITION from sinners, in order that you may not grow weary and lose heart.
peace be with you
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
From my original Post:
I asked for help with this question, because of my love for my Jewish friends and all the Jewish people. I welcome comments from Jews and Christians of all denominations.
I asked “Chosen People,” (a Jewish Forum Member) to comment on the topic to help us better understand the Jewish viewpoint. Chosen People’s comments were greatly appreciated.
Christianity is intimately connected with Judaism; and I think it is important to keep the dialogue open to better understand one another.
Keep in mind: I am a Christian. I believe that Christ came as the Word Incarnate, as fully God and fully man. I believe He made the ultimate atonement for our sins through His death; and that His was, indeed, resurrected and offers hope and salvation to all mankind.
So, when I pose questions on this Thread; I am attempting to consider the Jewish perspective.
We have had a rich discussion regarding the role of "sacrifice in the OT & NT; the issue of whether or not the Divinity of Christ left Him at any point during the crucifixion; whether or not God could have chosen a different method of atonement; why God chose to accomplish our reconciliation and salvation through Christ; as well as some of the Jewish viewpoints regarding sin, salvation, and blood atonement–and much more.
I appreciate all the wonderful posts, and the great effort put into those posts.
Before we continue: As the OP—let me clarify: This Thread is not for the purpose of arguing Christian vs. Muslims beliefs; or Christian vs. any other religion–expect Judaism. There are other Threads that discuss the beliefs of Muslims, and other religions. For those who wish to discuss religions other than Christianity and Judaism; I respectfully ask that you post on the Threads dedicated to your topic, or start a new Thread.
Thank you,
Anna
As those of you, who have been following this Thread, know—The question, of why Christ had to die for our salvation, was posed with the Jewish perspective in mind.
I asked for help with this question, because of my love for my Jewish friends and all the Jewish people. I welcome comments from Jews and Christians of all denominations.
I asked “Chosen People,” (a Jewish Forum Member) to comment on the topic to help us better understand the Jewish viewpoint. Chosen People’s comments were greatly appreciated.
Christianity is intimately connected with Judaism; and I think it is important to keep the dialogue open to better understand one another.
Keep in mind: I am a Christian. I believe that Christ came as the Word Incarnate, as fully God and fully man. I believe He made the ultimate atonement for our sins through His death; and that His was, indeed, resurrected and offers hope and salvation to all mankind.
So, when I pose questions on this Thread; I am attempting to consider the Jewish perspective.
We have had a rich discussion regarding the role of "sacrifice in the OT & NT; the issue of whether or not the Divinity of Christ left Him at any point during the crucifixion; whether or not God could have chosen a different method of atonement; why God chose to accomplish our reconciliation and salvation through Christ; as well as some of the Jewish viewpoints regarding sin, salvation, and blood atonement–and much more.
I appreciate all the wonderful posts, and the great effort put into those posts.
Before we continue: As the OP—let me clarify: This Thread is not for the purpose of arguing Christian vs. Muslims beliefs; or Christian vs. any other religion–expect Judaism. There are other Threads that discuss the beliefs of Muslims, and other religions. For those who wish to discuss religions other than Christianity and Judaism; I respectfully ask that you post on the Threads dedicated to your topic, or start a new Thread.
Thank you,
Anna
E
Eric_Hyom
Guest
Greetings and peace be with you corban36,
**
*
I am not sure how close the above analogy might be; the queen may not be the head of the USA, but God is the head of all nations. If I change a few things from the above quote, I think it may highlight what I am trying to say.
Another example, say the queen of England is visiting an English town and is riding down the street during a parade with her son Prince Charles in a convertible limousine. A heckler in the crowd throws a tomato and hits the queen squarely in the face. Even though the captured heckler has to apologize to the queen for his transgression, Prince Charles who also represents the English people - will also have to apologize to his mother the queen with the red face - rank for rank - because the heckler’s apology by itself is not good enough.
Blessings
Eric
**
*
England* is visiting America and is riding down the street during a parade with the president in a convertible limousine. A heckler in the crowd throws a tomato and hits the queen squarely in the face. Even though the captured heckler has to apologize to the queen for his transgression, the president himself - who represents the American people - will also have to apologize to the queen with the red face - rank for rank - because the heckler’s apology by itself is not good enough.**
I am not sure how close the above analogy might be; the queen may not be the head of the USA, but God is the head of all nations. If I change a few things from the above quote, I think it may highlight what I am trying to say.
Another example, say the queen of England is visiting an English town and is riding down the street during a parade with her son Prince Charles in a convertible limousine. A heckler in the crowd throws a tomato and hits the queen squarely in the face. Even though the captured heckler has to apologize to the queen for his transgression, Prince Charles who also represents the English people - will also have to apologize to his mother the queen with the red face - rank for rank - because the heckler’s apology by itself is not good enough.
Blessings
Eric
C
corban36
Guest
Another example, say the queen of England is visiting an English town and is riding down the street during a parade with her son Prince Charles in a convertible limousine. A heckler in the crowd throws a tomato and hits the queen squarely in the face. Even though the captured heckler has to apologize to the queen for his transgression, Prince Charles who also represents the English people - will also have to apologize to his mother the queen with the red face - rank for rank - because the heckler’s apology by itself is not good enough.
Blessings
Apparently you did not understand the analogy of my passage. Changing it, as you did, removes its meaning. Do not change it but understand it as it is. It doesn’t need to be changed.
Respectfully,
Corban36*
*
Blessings
*Eric
*Dear EricApparently you did not understand the analogy of my passage. Changing it, as you did, removes its meaning. Do not change it but understand it as it is. It doesn’t need to be changed.
Respectfully,
Corban36*
*
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
What does this have to do with our topic? Not sure what point you are trying to make.
Anna
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corban36
Guest
Dear Deconi. It looks like you are the only one who appreciated the explanation I submitted that was given to me by father Tabitt on why Christ had to die. You are welcome. Even Anna, who started this thread, has made no comment on it thus far. I am actually quite surprised. Apart from Eric - who erroneously changed part of my explanation to suit his agenda - you were the only one who responded. Unfortunately, some people in life will choose the zirconia instead of the diamond. Hard to believe but true. Christ warned us of this when He told us not to throw our pearls before swine (they will trample them). Nevertheless, we must continue to do His Will, even when we know that sometimes it will fall on deaf ears. (The Parable of the Sower also comes to mind here.) “Let those who have ears listen!”As usual, the most direct answers are glossed over and probably, ignore. In this entire thread, this is the closest to the reason it had to be Christ, and WHY it had to be death.
Thank you, Corban.
Peace to all
Corban36
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Juan:
I apologize for not responding to your post. It was not intentional. I thought I had answered everyone.
You said, "The answer is: no one else possessed the necessary “Qualifications” for “The Job.” You also said that Adam and Eve “did not possess the qualifications, the Rank, to properly “apologize” to God” for their sin.
Your post is very interesting, and I agree that we could not accomplish the work of Christ. We do not possess His qualifications.
Though true, this still doesn’t answer the question of whether or not God could have chosen to forgive our sins another way. You still have not answered “why” anyone had to die.
The point being, God is God and He makes the rules. So, why couldn’t God forgive our sins without a blood atonement? Is there any power higher than God that binds God to a blood atonement in order to forgive sins?
Within Christianity we are accustomed to explaining the great sacrifice that Christ made. We are accustomed to describing His “qualifications” as Savior.
However, as the many posts on this Thread have proven; we are not accustomed to answering “why” God chose the tortuous death of Christ as a means for our forgiveness. Some posts did directly answer, but most did not.
I posted Scripture from the OT/TANAKH & NT which indicate a changing attitude regarding sacrifice. I pointed out that Christ freely forgave sins throughout His ministry–without telling those He forgave to go make a blood atonement at the Temple.
Even John baptized for repentance and forgiveness of sin–no blood atonement there, either.
So, is there anything higher than God that would dictate that sins can only be forgiven by blood atonement? This is really the heart of the question. I’m not really sure how references to the Queen of England can answer the question.
Anna
E
Eric_Hyom
Guest
Greetings and peace be with you Corban; I am so sorry; but I still cannot follow your explanation.
*From your explanation, Jesus would just have to apologise to Gods the Father on our behalf, rank for rank. The president of the USA did not sacrifice his son, so that the queen would recognise the sincerity of the presidents apology. *
Jesus didn’t apologise for my sins, he died for my sins.
This makes my analogy wrong as well, and I am still struggling to find meaning.
Every blessing
Eric
England* is visiting America and is riding down the street during a parade with the president in a convertible limousine. A heckler in the crowd throws a tomato and hits the queen squarely in the face. Even though the captured heckler has to apologize to the queen for his transgression, the president himself - who represents the American people - will also have to apologize to the queen with the red face - rank for rank - because the heckler’s apology by itself is not good enough.**
*From your explanation, Jesus would just have to apologise to Gods the Father on our behalf, rank for rank. The president of the USA did not sacrifice his son, so that the queen would recognise the sincerity of the presidents apology. *
Jesus didn’t apologise for my sins, he died for my sins.
This makes my analogy wrong as well, and I am still struggling to find meaning.
Every blessing
Eric
C
corban36
Guest
*From your explanation, Jesus would just have to apologise to Gods the Father on our behalf, rank for rank. The president of the USA did not sacrifice his son, so that the queen would recognise the sincerity of the presidents apology. *
Jesus didn’t apologise for my sins, he died for my sins.
This makes my analogy wrong as well, and I am still struggling to find meaning.
Every blessing
Eric forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/quote.gif
Eric. You are not listening to my post. Please read it over and over until you finally understand it. It is not that difficult to understand.
Peace
Jesus didn’t apologise for my sins, he died for my sins.
This makes my analogy wrong as well, and I am still struggling to find meaning.
Every blessing
Eric forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/quote.gif
Eric. You are not listening to my post. Please read it over and over until you finally understand it. It is not that difficult to understand.
Peace
C
corban36
Guest
=============
Dear Anna: God could have forgiven mankind who knows how many other ways for the sin of disobedience, committed by Adam and Eve, that shattered the relationship between us and our Loving Creator, but the ONLY way to do it correctly was through Christ’s Death, and for the reason I already mentioned in my post. Please read it again (Rank to Rank). God always does things the CORRECT WAY (which by the way is also the simplest way). Even though our finite minds and hearts are not capable of understanding the way His Infinite Mind and Heart works, it isn’t impossible to understand Him sometimes, and this is one of those times we can certainly understand Him. Now, in regards to why God specifically chose to undergo a terrible death instead of doing it some other way, this is really a no-brainer. Scripture is riddled with this answer. And the answer is this: because it was the ULTIMATE expression of His Love for mankind.
For example: Say you are given the opportunity to help save a person who has been condemned to death and they tell you: “If you give up your bank account, this man will not be executed and will live.” And you say “O.k., take it!” Then they say: “It is not enough. You must also give us your house,” and you say, “O.k. Take it! It is worth a human life.” Then they say, “It is still not enough. You must also give up your life and suffer torture and a terrible death,” and then you say “Waiiiiit just a doggone minute! You are asking way too much now!”
See my point? Would YOU undergo torture and a terrible death to save someone else? And especially to save someone who called you names, laughed at you, made fun of you, spit on you, even scourged you and brutally physically hurt you? Would you really sacrifice your life – in that terrible manner - for someone like that? Now multiply that by millions of people who offended you terribly. Would you do it for them? Well, now you know why God/Christ suffered for us: BECAUSE IT IS THE ULTIMATE EXPRESSION OF HIS IMMMENSE LOVE FOR US. Nothing else would do.
Yes, Christ (God) could have redeemed us some other way, but it would not have had the same result, impact, influence, etc. And only He – and He alone – possessed the “Qualifications” (with a capital “Q”) to do it.
I certainly hope this finally answers your question. Please explain this to your Jewish friend.
P.S. In addition, by dying and coming back to life, Christ proved to us – showed us - that life after death (the resurrection of the body) is a fact to believe in, not just a fairy tale.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
I really don’t have to read your posts again to understand what you are saying.
Remember, I am a Christian, who believes that Christ made the ultimate sacrifice to save us from our sins.
I am considering the Jewish viewpoint.
You said, “God could have forgiven mankind who knows how many other ways for the sin of disobedience.” Then you contradict your statement by saying, “the ONLY way to do it correctly was through Christ’s Death.”
If you maintain that the sacrifice of Christ was the “only correct way,” then that would mean if God did it any other way, He would be doing it “incorrectly.” So, there is a flaw in your logic.
You said, “God always does things the CORRECT WAY,” which is also the “simplest way.”
I think the simplest way would be to say, “your sins are forgiven,” which is exactly how Christ forgave sins during His ministry.
I would not agree that the sacrifice of Christ was the “simplest” way. Jesus was conceived through the Holy Spirit, born of a Virgin, came into the world as God Incarnate, taught and ministered to mankind, performed miracles, raised the dead, forgave sins, suffered physical torture during His Passion, took the sins of the world upon Himself, conquered death, rose from the dead, ministered to His followers once again, and ascended into Heaven. And we await His return. Does that sound simple to you?
You said God did this, “because it was the ULTIMATE expression of His Love for mankind.” I agree that this is the ultimate expression of love. I understand this as a Christian.
However, I’m not sure I would accept this so easily, if I were looking at this from a Jewish perspective. The whole point of this Thread is to be able to answer the Jewish perspective.
Think about this concept of the “ultimate expression of His Love for mankind.” Then think of a “just” God piling the sins of the world upon an innocent man, who is also God, and then torturing Him beyond anything we can imagine–all to forgive the sins of the unjust and unrighteous. Then consider the call to repeatedly consume the body and blood of Christ.
Do you not see how this would be difficult to accept from the Jewish viewpoint? Christians are basically telling the Jews they do not know how to interpret the Torah, which was given to them by God (imagine how it would feel for a Jew to tell you that you, a Christian, do not understand the NT.) The Jews do not have the same concept of original sin. They do not believe a blood atonement is required for the forgiveness of sin. They do not expect a Messiah to save them from their sins. Most Jews are unconcerned about the afterlife. They love God and serve God, because He is God. One Jewish author called the Christian obsession with the afterlife “narcissistic.” I think in some fundamentalist circles, this is probably true. Considering all these things, do you think we have answered the Jewish question: If God is God, and He makes the rules, why does anyone have to die?
I believe God chose to send His Son into the world, through His Divine and Infinite Wisdom. I think we both agree that this was the ultimate expression of Love; and when Christ atoned for our sins, He also conquered death to give us the promise of eternal life. Christ gives hope to all of us. We are blessed to understand the significance of the words and work of Christ. We are blessed–for this acceptance comes easy to us.
I understand that accepting Christ is not easy for the Jewish people, for many reasons.
Corban, we agree on many points, and I appreciate your comments; as well as all the other posts on this Thread. You have all been a great help to me.
I hope this discussion will spark compassion for the Jewish people. I lift up prayers on their behalf. I pray for their salvation. I pray that I will answer their questions correctly, or remain silent. I pray that my life will speak, what words cannot—and knowing my many failings–that is asking a great deal from God.
Anna
D
DarkNight
Guest
I came to realize that I was focusing too much on His crucifixion and was missing the importance of His life.
Jesus was completely human. He was born. So it follows naturally that He had to die.
He has experienced everything we have experienced including love, hate, joy and pain.
How does this save us from our sins?
It is not because His Father required a bloody sacrifice.
Jesus has shown us, through His life as well as His death, that if we do the right thing at each step along our path that, in the end, we will arrive at a place more glorious than we can ever imagine.
We will be saved from our sins because we will learn not to sin.
Just look at the Stations of the Cross. In each Jesus is showing us that yes, He also endured the situations we endure - betrayal by a dear friend, accusations by people who don’t understand us, pain and suffering through no fault of our own. And He also knew the joy of love, the help of strangers, a shoulder to lean on.
He has shown us that, no matter what happens to us, we will succeed if we walk our path even unto death.
I always wondered how I was supposed to know the answer to “What would Jesus do?”.
I have come to realize that the answer is always the same - He would walk His path.
By His life and His death He shows us that simply walking one’s path leads us to glory.
Why did He have to die? Because He was born.
He showed us how to live. He showed us how to die.
Go with Love, Go with God
Jesus was completely human. He was born. So it follows naturally that He had to die.
He has experienced everything we have experienced including love, hate, joy and pain.
How does this save us from our sins?
It is not because His Father required a bloody sacrifice.
Jesus has shown us, through His life as well as His death, that if we do the right thing at each step along our path that, in the end, we will arrive at a place more glorious than we can ever imagine.
We will be saved from our sins because we will learn not to sin.
Just look at the Stations of the Cross. In each Jesus is showing us that yes, He also endured the situations we endure - betrayal by a dear friend, accusations by people who don’t understand us, pain and suffering through no fault of our own. And He also knew the joy of love, the help of strangers, a shoulder to lean on.
He has shown us that, no matter what happens to us, we will succeed if we walk our path even unto death.
I always wondered how I was supposed to know the answer to “What would Jesus do?”.
I have come to realize that the answer is always the same - He would walk His path.
By His life and His death He shows us that simply walking one’s path leads us to glory.
Why did He have to die? Because He was born.
He showed us how to live. He showed us how to die.
Go with Love, Go with God
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
C
corban36
Guest
Dear Anna.
I noticed after reading post # 79 that you are a Protestant and not a Catholic. I was not aware of that ‘till now. This explains why you are having such a hard time understanding why Christ had to die to redeem us, and also, why you are having such difficulty explaining this to your Jewish friend(s).
First of all, being a Protestant Christian does not mean that you are on an equal par with practicing Catholic Christians, you must understand this from the get-go, and the reason is simple: because Protestants do not believe the same things that Catholics believe in and are not members of the Mystical Body of Christ on Earth. Catholicism is **authentic **Christianity, Protestantism is not. Therefore, since Protestants do not follow the actual teachings of Christ, as practicing Catholics do, it is more difficult for them to explain Christian mysteries not only to themselves, but also to others of different faiths. This is why Protestants are not on an equal par with Catholics and never will be, and not only in this regard, but in others as well.
It is very important for you to know that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that Christ founded 2000 years ago. It is the Original - and only - Church that Christ established on Earth, and its members, who regularly practice their faith, are the only Christians on Earth who are in complete communion with Christ. The Catholic Church had been spreading the Gospel of Christ all over the world for almost 1600 years before the first Protestant denomination came into existence, (see “How Old is Your Church” below.), which proves – beyond the shadow of a doubt – that it is in fact the Original Church that Christ founded. We may be able to change other things, but we can’t change history. Therefore, if you want to be a member of the original body of Christian believers, and you want to learn the authentic Christian teachings given to mankind by Jesus Christ Himself, there is no other choice but to join the Catholic Church**. (See John 15:1-10; 17: 21-23.) Once you become a member of the Church and learn the teachings of the Church, you will have the necessary education to properly teach others the teachings of Christ and their meanings. There is no other way. **
The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ on Earth. Protestants are not members of this Body of Christian believers. The Protestants who truly believe that Jesus is the Son of God belong to the “Spirit” of Christ, but not to the Body of Christ. Catholics, on the other hand, belong to both the Body and the Spirit of Christ. This is very important to understand if you want to be a true Christian: a true follower of Christ.
Secondly, you erred by saying that I contradicted myself when I said that God could have redeemed us a number of ways but chose the Death of His Son on a Cross as the only way to redeem us “correctly”. There is no contradiction here, Anna. To explain this further, this simply means that God could have redeemed mankind a number of different ways because God can do anything since nothing is impossible to Him, but He decided that the ONLY way to redeem us “correctly”, so to speak, was through the Death of His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, and it is not hard to understand WHY He decided to redeem us this way for the reason I already gave in my earlier post. There is no reason to complicate the matter, and there is no contradiction in what I said if you read it “correctly”. To underscore this truth, Jesus Himself said: “The greatest love a person can have for his friends is to give his life for them” (John 15:13).
Moreover, you said: “If you maintain that the sacrifice of Christ was the ‘only correct way,’ then that would mean if God did it any other way, He would be doing it ‘incorrectly.’ So, there is a flaw in your logic.” There is no flaw in my logic - and no flaw in God’s logic either. You evidently did not notice the reason why I used the word “correct” to illustrate why God preferred Death of His Son on a Cross to redeem mankind over any other way. It is not a contradiction to use the word “correct” because it is a very appropriate word to use. If God had redeemed us some other way besides Death on a Cross, it would not have been the “correct” way to do it, much the same way as it would not have been the “correct” way to make a human with four arms instead of only two, or with four legs instead of only two. Yes, God could’ve made us with four arms and four legs instead of two of each but He did not because, in His Mind, it was the “correct” way to make us this way. I hope you understand now why I used the word “correct”. As I said before, God always does things the “correct” way (as opposed to the “incorrect” way). Now, if you disagree with the way God does things, you’ll have to take it up with Him, not with me.
(Continued below.)
I noticed after reading post # 79 that you are a Protestant and not a Catholic. I was not aware of that ‘till now. This explains why you are having such a hard time understanding why Christ had to die to redeem us, and also, why you are having such difficulty explaining this to your Jewish friend(s).
First of all, being a Protestant Christian does not mean that you are on an equal par with practicing Catholic Christians, you must understand this from the get-go, and the reason is simple: because Protestants do not believe the same things that Catholics believe in and are not members of the Mystical Body of Christ on Earth. Catholicism is **authentic **Christianity, Protestantism is not. Therefore, since Protestants do not follow the actual teachings of Christ, as practicing Catholics do, it is more difficult for them to explain Christian mysteries not only to themselves, but also to others of different faiths. This is why Protestants are not on an equal par with Catholics and never will be, and not only in this regard, but in others as well.
It is very important for you to know that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that Christ founded 2000 years ago. It is the Original - and only - Church that Christ established on Earth, and its members, who regularly practice their faith, are the only Christians on Earth who are in complete communion with Christ. The Catholic Church had been spreading the Gospel of Christ all over the world for almost 1600 years before the first Protestant denomination came into existence, (see “How Old is Your Church” below.), which proves – beyond the shadow of a doubt – that it is in fact the Original Church that Christ founded. We may be able to change other things, but we can’t change history. Therefore, if you want to be a member of the original body of Christian believers, and you want to learn the authentic Christian teachings given to mankind by Jesus Christ Himself, there is no other choice but to join the Catholic Church**. (See John 15:1-10; 17: 21-23.) Once you become a member of the Church and learn the teachings of the Church, you will have the necessary education to properly teach others the teachings of Christ and their meanings. There is no other way. **
The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ on Earth. Protestants are not members of this Body of Christian believers. The Protestants who truly believe that Jesus is the Son of God belong to the “Spirit” of Christ, but not to the Body of Christ. Catholics, on the other hand, belong to both the Body and the Spirit of Christ. This is very important to understand if you want to be a true Christian: a true follower of Christ.
Secondly, you erred by saying that I contradicted myself when I said that God could have redeemed us a number of ways but chose the Death of His Son on a Cross as the only way to redeem us “correctly”. There is no contradiction here, Anna. To explain this further, this simply means that God could have redeemed mankind a number of different ways because God can do anything since nothing is impossible to Him, but He decided that the ONLY way to redeem us “correctly”, so to speak, was through the Death of His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, and it is not hard to understand WHY He decided to redeem us this way for the reason I already gave in my earlier post. There is no reason to complicate the matter, and there is no contradiction in what I said if you read it “correctly”. To underscore this truth, Jesus Himself said: “The greatest love a person can have for his friends is to give his life for them” (John 15:13).
Moreover, you said: “If you maintain that the sacrifice of Christ was the ‘only correct way,’ then that would mean if God did it any other way, He would be doing it ‘incorrectly.’ So, there is a flaw in your logic.” There is no flaw in my logic - and no flaw in God’s logic either. You evidently did not notice the reason why I used the word “correct” to illustrate why God preferred Death of His Son on a Cross to redeem mankind over any other way. It is not a contradiction to use the word “correct” because it is a very appropriate word to use. If God had redeemed us some other way besides Death on a Cross, it would not have been the “correct” way to do it, much the same way as it would not have been the “correct” way to make a human with four arms instead of only two, or with four legs instead of only two. Yes, God could’ve made us with four arms and four legs instead of two of each but He did not because, in His Mind, it was the “correct” way to make us this way. I hope you understand now why I used the word “correct”. As I said before, God always does things the “correct” way (as opposed to the “incorrect” way). Now, if you disagree with the way God does things, you’ll have to take it up with Him, not with me.
(Continued below.)
C
corban36
Guest
Thirdly, you said:” I think the simplest way [to redeem us] would be to say, ‘your sins are forgiven,’ which is exactly how Christ forgave sins during His ministry.” Please remember that although Christ forgave the sins of some of the people he encountered, and also healed many who were sick and raised the dead, they were not redeemed yet - they were only redeemed after His Death on the Cross. Now, in regards to His Death on the Cross being a simple way to Redeem us, I never said His Death on the Cross was simple (i.e., trivial), but rather that everything God does is simple to Him, which is not the same thing. God is Absolute Simplicity. Therefore, all He does is simple – to Him, not to us. Something that is very complicated to us is in fact very simple to Him. THAT is what I meant when I said that all things are simple to Him, and that all He does is simple, because they are - to Him. I hope you now understand what I meant when I said that everything God does is ”simple”. It is really quite simple to understand.
Lastly, you said: “I am considering the Jewish viewpoint….I’m not sure I would accept this so easily, if I were looking at this from a Jewish perspective. The whole point of this Thread is to be able to answer the Jewish perspective.”
Even though the objective of this thread was indeed to answer a Jew’s question: “Why Did He [Jesus] Have to Die**?”, I think it was even more**** important that YOU - and ALL the other Christians who participated in this thread - were given the correct answer to this most important question.**However, that being said, you cannot answer the “Jewish perspective” because Jews do not believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, and much less, that His Death redeemed all mankind. It is not part of their belief system. In fact, they are still waiting for the Messiah! even though the Messiah already came over 2000 years ago! The Jews who have converted to Catholicism now understand and accept these truths (and are no longer Jews, by the way, they are now Catholics), but the Jews who have not converted do not believe and will not accept these truths – and many others. By the way, the Jews are no longer considered God’s Chosen People anymore (in case you didn’t know); it is the Christians, and more specifically the Catholics who are God’s Chosen People. With the coming of Christ, Judaism became an obsolete religion, and it is still an obsolete religion to this day. This is VERY important to keep in mind when talking with Jews because they still think they are God’s Chosen People - which is not true. Talking to some Jews (not all) about Christ and Catholicism will usually only get you a headache. In fact, even Christ Himself, who was God in the flesh, often said to them in person: “You have ears but do not listen; and you have eyes but do not see….how stubborn you are!” He also called them names that were “not too nice” by today’s standards: brood of vipers, fools, whitewashed tombs, sons of the devil, etc. As you can see, Jesus was obviously not interested in political correctness, as evidenced throughout the entire NT. Very important to keep this in mind too.
The only thing we can do, Anna, as good Christians, is try our best to explain the actual teachings of Christ to others, especially to unbelievers (which also includes Protestants, by the way), and if they do not accept these truths, we must then do what Christ told us to do: “shake the dust from our feet” (don’t waste our time anymore with them), “and continue on our way”.
May the Peace of Christ be with all of you this Thanksgiving Day and always.
Corban36
(Continued below.)
Lastly, you said: “I am considering the Jewish viewpoint….I’m not sure I would accept this so easily, if I were looking at this from a Jewish perspective. The whole point of this Thread is to be able to answer the Jewish perspective.”
Even though the objective of this thread was indeed to answer a Jew’s question: “Why Did He [Jesus] Have to Die**?”, I think it was even more**** important that YOU - and ALL the other Christians who participated in this thread - were given the correct answer to this most important question.**However, that being said, you cannot answer the “Jewish perspective” because Jews do not believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, and much less, that His Death redeemed all mankind. It is not part of their belief system. In fact, they are still waiting for the Messiah! even though the Messiah already came over 2000 years ago! The Jews who have converted to Catholicism now understand and accept these truths (and are no longer Jews, by the way, they are now Catholics), but the Jews who have not converted do not believe and will not accept these truths – and many others. By the way, the Jews are no longer considered God’s Chosen People anymore (in case you didn’t know); it is the Christians, and more specifically the Catholics who are God’s Chosen People. With the coming of Christ, Judaism became an obsolete religion, and it is still an obsolete religion to this day. This is VERY important to keep in mind when talking with Jews because they still think they are God’s Chosen People - which is not true. Talking to some Jews (not all) about Christ and Catholicism will usually only get you a headache. In fact, even Christ Himself, who was God in the flesh, often said to them in person: “You have ears but do not listen; and you have eyes but do not see….how stubborn you are!” He also called them names that were “not too nice” by today’s standards: brood of vipers, fools, whitewashed tombs, sons of the devil, etc. As you can see, Jesus was obviously not interested in political correctness, as evidenced throughout the entire NT. Very important to keep this in mind too.
The only thing we can do, Anna, as good Christians, is try our best to explain the actual teachings of Christ to others, especially to unbelievers (which also includes Protestants, by the way), and if they do not accept these truths, we must then do what Christ told us to do: “shake the dust from our feet” (don’t waste our time anymore with them), “and continue on our way”.
May the Peace of Christ be with all of you this Thanksgiving Day and always.
Corban36
(Continued below.)
C
corban36
Guest
HOW OLD IS YOUR CHURCH?
If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as “Church of the Nazarene,” “Pentecostal Gospel,” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehova’s Witnesses,” then you belong to one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past 100 years or so. These are not actual “religions,” but only sects.
LUTHERAN – Martin Luther
If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded in 1528 by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church. It is a Protestant religion. After reading the Bible, Luther erroneously declared that human beings were “justified,” that is, saved from going to Hell, by faith in Christ alone, that man was hopelessly corrupt due to original sin, and that all his good works, even those done from charitable or pious motives, were grave sins. Luther therefore concluded that following God’s Commandments and living a moral life doing good for others, as Christ Himself instructed, was actually unimportant, unnecessary, and unrewarding, and that only faith in Christ alone would take you to Heaven no matter what you did here on Earth, whether good or bad.
According to Luther, redemption means being justified by faith (trust) in Christ alone, whereby the sinner is considered pleasing to God without any co-operation on the sinner’s part. Luther’s disagreements with Catholic Church teachings on these matters led him to “protest” against the Church, which eventually led him to start his own brand of religion, ultimately becoming known as Lutheranism. Many people, who were weak in their faith and morals at the time, believed in Luther and became his followers.
It is firmly recorded in history that Luther was a victim of melancholia, sensual attacks, and, according to Luther himself, diabolical obsession. He attacked Erasmus for upholding free will, and in his “Servitude of the Will”, advocated determinism. Luther’s teachings and unbridled writings had been fanning the fire of the peasants’ growing discontent, resulting in the Peasants’ War of 1525. He sounded a warning, but too late, and throwing in his lot with the princes, he eloquently exhorted them “to slaughter the peasants like dogs.”
Luther married an ex-Bernardine nun, Catherine von Bora, intentionally breaking the vows of celibacy he had taken when he entered the religious life. Not surprisingly, Luther’s “protest,” inspired others to do the same: to break away from the Catholic Mother Church and start their own “Christian” church. Those who followed Luther’s example at first were kings, princes, noblemen, and the like, for these had wanted to get their hands on Church property for a long time. Some of them stormed Catholic monasteries and churches, looted and then burned them, and even raped the nuns and executed many of the priests, monks, and nuns. All this eventually led to what is known today as the “Reformation,” the supposed “reform” of Catholicism, which in turn gave birth to “Protestantism”: the proliferation of small churches, each professing their own brand of Christianity, without being united to Christ’s original Church, the Roman Catholic Church. Luther was excommunicated by Rome in 1521 for being a heretic, and rightly so. The destructive effects of his “protest” are still being felt to this day worldwide.
CHURCH OF ENGLAND - King Henry the VIII
If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry the VIII in the year 1534. It is a Protestant religion. Interestingly enough, at one point in his life, King Henry worked hard against Martin Luther in defense of the Seven Sacraments, the Mass, and the papal supremacy of the Catholic Mother Church, which won for him the title “Defender of the Faith,” conferred on him by Pope Leo X.
But his lust for sexual pleasure with a young woman, Anne Boleyn, caused him to break away from the Mother Church and establish his own church, the church of England. Henry had been married to his brother’s widow, Catherine of Aragon, a woman of Spanish nobility, and she had bore him a daughter, who later became Queen Mary. But Henry wanted a son – a son that would become King of England one day.
After having immoral relations with Elizabeth Blount and Mary Boleyn, Anne’s older sister, Henry became obsessed with violent passion for young Anne, who at the time was only about 15 years old, but Anne denied him sexual favors and basically told him: “either make me Queen or you get nothing!” Henry quickly started proceedings to get his marriage annulled but these failed, so divorce was then next on the list.
Claiming that his marriage to Catherine was actually not legal, Henry tried to persuade Cardinal Wolsey to grant him a divorce so he could marry Anne, but the Cardinal would not grant it to him. Henry eventually married Anne (while still being legally married to Catherine), but Anne bore him another daughter. Henry soon began to lust for another young woman, Jane Seymour, and had Anne beheaded so he could marry Jane. Consequently, Henry eventually opened the doors to his new church, the Church of England, and placed himself as the head of it. No one was going to tell him what was morally right or wrong anymore!
PRESBYTERIAN – John Knox
If you are a Presbyterian, your Protestant religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560, a product of the Protestant Reformation which was begun by Luther and followed by King Henry VIII.
If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as “Church of the Nazarene,” “Pentecostal Gospel,” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehova’s Witnesses,” then you belong to one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past 100 years or so. These are not actual “religions,” but only sects.
LUTHERAN – Martin Luther
If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded in 1528 by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church. It is a Protestant religion. After reading the Bible, Luther erroneously declared that human beings were “justified,” that is, saved from going to Hell, by faith in Christ alone, that man was hopelessly corrupt due to original sin, and that all his good works, even those done from charitable or pious motives, were grave sins. Luther therefore concluded that following God’s Commandments and living a moral life doing good for others, as Christ Himself instructed, was actually unimportant, unnecessary, and unrewarding, and that only faith in Christ alone would take you to Heaven no matter what you did here on Earth, whether good or bad.
According to Luther, redemption means being justified by faith (trust) in Christ alone, whereby the sinner is considered pleasing to God without any co-operation on the sinner’s part. Luther’s disagreements with Catholic Church teachings on these matters led him to “protest” against the Church, which eventually led him to start his own brand of religion, ultimately becoming known as Lutheranism. Many people, who were weak in their faith and morals at the time, believed in Luther and became his followers.
It is firmly recorded in history that Luther was a victim of melancholia, sensual attacks, and, according to Luther himself, diabolical obsession. He attacked Erasmus for upholding free will, and in his “Servitude of the Will”, advocated determinism. Luther’s teachings and unbridled writings had been fanning the fire of the peasants’ growing discontent, resulting in the Peasants’ War of 1525. He sounded a warning, but too late, and throwing in his lot with the princes, he eloquently exhorted them “to slaughter the peasants like dogs.”
Luther married an ex-Bernardine nun, Catherine von Bora, intentionally breaking the vows of celibacy he had taken when he entered the religious life. Not surprisingly, Luther’s “protest,” inspired others to do the same: to break away from the Catholic Mother Church and start their own “Christian” church. Those who followed Luther’s example at first were kings, princes, noblemen, and the like, for these had wanted to get their hands on Church property for a long time. Some of them stormed Catholic monasteries and churches, looted and then burned them, and even raped the nuns and executed many of the priests, monks, and nuns. All this eventually led to what is known today as the “Reformation,” the supposed “reform” of Catholicism, which in turn gave birth to “Protestantism”: the proliferation of small churches, each professing their own brand of Christianity, without being united to Christ’s original Church, the Roman Catholic Church. Luther was excommunicated by Rome in 1521 for being a heretic, and rightly so. The destructive effects of his “protest” are still being felt to this day worldwide.
CHURCH OF ENGLAND - King Henry the VIII
If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry the VIII in the year 1534. It is a Protestant religion. Interestingly enough, at one point in his life, King Henry worked hard against Martin Luther in defense of the Seven Sacraments, the Mass, and the papal supremacy of the Catholic Mother Church, which won for him the title “Defender of the Faith,” conferred on him by Pope Leo X.
But his lust for sexual pleasure with a young woman, Anne Boleyn, caused him to break away from the Mother Church and establish his own church, the church of England. Henry had been married to his brother’s widow, Catherine of Aragon, a woman of Spanish nobility, and she had bore him a daughter, who later became Queen Mary. But Henry wanted a son – a son that would become King of England one day.
After having immoral relations with Elizabeth Blount and Mary Boleyn, Anne’s older sister, Henry became obsessed with violent passion for young Anne, who at the time was only about 15 years old, but Anne denied him sexual favors and basically told him: “either make me Queen or you get nothing!” Henry quickly started proceedings to get his marriage annulled but these failed, so divorce was then next on the list.
Claiming that his marriage to Catherine was actually not legal, Henry tried to persuade Cardinal Wolsey to grant him a divorce so he could marry Anne, but the Cardinal would not grant it to him. Henry eventually married Anne (while still being legally married to Catherine), but Anne bore him another daughter. Henry soon began to lust for another young woman, Jane Seymour, and had Anne beheaded so he could marry Jane. Consequently, Henry eventually opened the doors to his new church, the Church of England, and placed himself as the head of it. No one was going to tell him what was morally right or wrong anymore!
PRESBYTERIAN – John Knox
If you are a Presbyterian, your Protestant religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560, a product of the Protestant Reformation which was begun by Luther and followed by King Henry VIII.
C
corban36
Guest
(Continued from above.)
CONGREGATIONALIST - Robert Brown
If you are a Congregationalist, your Protestant religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.
BAPTIST - John Smyth
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your Protestant religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1606.
DUTCH REFORMED – Michaelis Jones
If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your Protestant religion in New York in 1628.
EPISCOPALIAN - Samuel Seabury
If you are an Episcopalian, your Protestant religion was an off-shoot of the Church of England, and was founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.
METHODIST – John and Charles Wesley
If you are a Methodist, your Protestant religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
UNITARIAN – Theophilus Lindley
If you are Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your Protestant church in London in 1774.
MORMON – Joseph Smith
If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1829.
SALVATION ARMY - William Booth
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST – Mary Baker Eddy
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your Protestant religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.
ROMAN CATHOLIC – Jesus Christ
If you are a Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ, the Son of God, with Peter as its first Pope.
oOo
After taking the above historical facts into account, this means that from the time Christ established His Church on Earth in the year 33 A.D. to the time of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, for about 1500 years, the Catholic Church was the only Christian body of believers spreading the Gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ throughout the world, as Christ instructed. In other words, a single Protestant church did not even exist for those first 1500 years after Christ ascended into Heaven, leaving Peter as the head (Pope) of His Church - His original Church. The truth of this single historical fact should be very important – in fact, paramount - for the true follower of Christ, for Christ exhorted all His followers to remain united to Him at all times, something that can only be fully accomplished by remaining united to His only Church, of course. In fact, that is one of the main reasons why Christ established His Church on Earth in the first place: so that all who wanted to follow Him would be able to remain united to Him. After Peter declared that Jesus was truly the Son of God: God Himself in the flesh, Christ said: “And so I tell you, Peter: you are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church, and not even death will ever be able to overcome it… If you love me, you will obey my commandments… Whoever accepts my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me… Whoever does not love me does not obey my teaching… I am the vine and you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, and I in him, will bear much fruit; for you can do nothing without me. … If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love” (Matthew 16:18. John 14:15, 21, 24; 15: 5, 10.). In spite of the strange and confusing times we are living in, the above enumerated facts are still undeniable. These are, in fact, absolute truths.
CLOSING NOTE
It is estimated that 50 to 80 new Protestant churches are born every day in the United States alone, not only for the tax exempt status they enjoy, given to them directly by the government, but also – and most importantly - for the high potential in monetary profits gathered from the members on a weekly basis during Sunday service. All Protestant pastors of large congregations earn six figure incomes due to the mandatory 10% tithing (contributions) required from their loyal followers. Much smaller by comparison, the annual salary for a Catholic diocesan priest in 1993 was only $ 8,000.00. I am sure it has gone up by now but probably not by much. One can therefore quickly see that, contrary to some opinions out there, the Catholic priesthood is not a lucrative business.
CONGREGATIONALIST - Robert Brown
If you are a Congregationalist, your Protestant religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.
BAPTIST - John Smyth
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your Protestant religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1606.
DUTCH REFORMED – Michaelis Jones
If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your Protestant religion in New York in 1628.
EPISCOPALIAN - Samuel Seabury
If you are an Episcopalian, your Protestant religion was an off-shoot of the Church of England, and was founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.
METHODIST – John and Charles Wesley
If you are a Methodist, your Protestant religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
UNITARIAN – Theophilus Lindley
If you are Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your Protestant church in London in 1774.
MORMON – Joseph Smith
If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1829.
SALVATION ARMY - William Booth
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST – Mary Baker Eddy
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your Protestant religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.
ROMAN CATHOLIC – Jesus Christ
If you are a Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ, the Son of God, with Peter as its first Pope.
oOo
After taking the above historical facts into account, this means that from the time Christ established His Church on Earth in the year 33 A.D. to the time of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, for about 1500 years, the Catholic Church was the only Christian body of believers spreading the Gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ throughout the world, as Christ instructed. In other words, a single Protestant church did not even exist for those first 1500 years after Christ ascended into Heaven, leaving Peter as the head (Pope) of His Church - His original Church. The truth of this single historical fact should be very important – in fact, paramount - for the true follower of Christ, for Christ exhorted all His followers to remain united to Him at all times, something that can only be fully accomplished by remaining united to His only Church, of course. In fact, that is one of the main reasons why Christ established His Church on Earth in the first place: so that all who wanted to follow Him would be able to remain united to Him. After Peter declared that Jesus was truly the Son of God: God Himself in the flesh, Christ said: “And so I tell you, Peter: you are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church, and not even death will ever be able to overcome it… If you love me, you will obey my commandments… Whoever accepts my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me… Whoever does not love me does not obey my teaching… I am the vine and you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, and I in him, will bear much fruit; for you can do nothing without me. … If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love” (Matthew 16:18. John 14:15, 21, 24; 15: 5, 10.). In spite of the strange and confusing times we are living in, the above enumerated facts are still undeniable. These are, in fact, absolute truths.
CLOSING NOTE
It is estimated that 50 to 80 new Protestant churches are born every day in the United States alone, not only for the tax exempt status they enjoy, given to them directly by the government, but also – and most importantly - for the high potential in monetary profits gathered from the members on a weekly basis during Sunday service. All Protestant pastors of large congregations earn six figure incomes due to the mandatory 10% tithing (contributions) required from their loyal followers. Much smaller by comparison, the annual salary for a Catholic diocesan priest in 1993 was only $ 8,000.00. I am sure it has gone up by now but probably not by much. One can therefore quickly see that, contrary to some opinions out there, the Catholic priesthood is not a lucrative business.
- Status