Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you DarkNight
Like Anna, I was inspired by your words, and I sense that everything Jesus did was because of his love for us; could it just be possible that Jesus loves us as he loves himself?
Blessings
Eric

 

[Deconi]

(Continued from above.)

CONGREGATIONALIST - Robert Brown

If you are a Congregationalist, your Protestant religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

BAPTIST - John Smyth

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your Protestant religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1606.

DUTCH REFORMED – Michaelis Jones

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your Protestant religion in New York in 1628.

EPISCOPALIAN - Samuel Seabury

If you are an Episcopalian, your Protestant religion was an off-shoot of the Church of England, and was founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

METHODIST – John and Charles Wesley

If you are a Methodist, your Protestant religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

UNITARIAN – Theophilus Lindley

If you are Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your Protestant church in London in 1774.

MORMON – Joseph Smith

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1829.

SALVATION ARMY - William Booth

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST – Mary Baker Eddy

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your Protestant religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

ROMAN CATHOLIC – Jesus Christ

If you are a Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ, the Son of God, with Peter as its first Pope.

oOo

After taking the above historical facts into account, this means that from the time Christ established His Church on Earth in the year 33 A.D. to the time of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, for about 1500 years, the Catholic Church was the only Christian body of believers spreading the Gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ throughout the world, as Christ instructed. In other words, a single Protestant church did not even exist for those first 1500 years after Christ ascended into Heaven, leaving Peter as the head (Pope) of His Church - His original Church. The truth of this single historical fact should be very important – in fact, paramount - for the true follower of Christ, for Christ exhorted all His followers to remain united to Him at all times, something that can only be fully accomplished by remaining united to His only Church, of course. In fact, that is one of the main reasons why Christ established His Church on Earth in the first place: so that all who wanted to follow Him would be able to remain united to Him. After Peter declared that Jesus was truly the Son of God: God Himself in the flesh, Christ said: “And so I tell you, Peter: you are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church, and not even death will ever be able to overcome it… If you love me, you will obey my commandments… Whoever accepts my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me… Whoever does not love me does not obey my teaching… I am the vine and you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, and I in him, will bear much fruit; for you can do nothing without me. … If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love” (Matthew 16:18. John 14:15, 21, 24; 15: 5, 10.). In spite of the strange and confusing times we are living in, the above enumerated facts are still undeniable. These are, in fact, absolute truths.

CLOSING NOTE

It is estimated that 50 to 80 new Protestant churches are born every day in the United States alone, not only for the tax exempt status they enjoy, given to them directly by the government, but also – and most importantly - for the high potential in monetary profits gathered from the members on a weekly basis during Sunday service. All Protestant pastors of large congregations earn six figure incomes due to the mandatory 10% tithing (contributions) required from their loyal followers. Much smaller by comparison, the annual salary for a Catholic diocesan priest in 1993 was only $ 8,000.00. I am sure it has gone up by now but probably not by much. One can therefore quickly see that, contrary to some opinions out there, the Catholic priesthood is not a lucrative business.

Killjoy! You’ve taken the fun out of history for some, now!

Two things though;
The priests do not keep a cent, just as the Pope does not own a penny or a bank account. All the money gathered goes to maintenance of the parish(es) food and charitable work. (Sadly, this now includes paying for the ‘filth’ among us) I know some parishes donate the car for the priest to use but it belongs to the parish and normally remains there when he moves to another parish; or the parish lets him keep the car.

Second, the reason WHY Christ, and WHY death?
Genesis: “…for if you eat of the fruit of the Tree, you will surely die…”

God did not CHANGE His mind and decided to ‘rescue’ us from death. He had spoken and death it was. To overcome His decree, ONLY HE, for there is none equal, (Qualified) can submit Himself to something He reigns over (Death) in order to RESTORE His creature creation (His Image/Us) to its former state; EVERLASTING LIFE with Him!
(Rank for rank, pound for pound…)

Is “Love” adequate to describe such an act by such Supremacy?? About as adequate as our brains trying to comprehend Him!

Just ‘hitching a ride’ on your coat-tails, corban. Sorry.

 

[corban36]

Killjoy! You’ve taken the fun out of history for some, now!

Two things though;
The priests do not keep a cent, just as the Pope does not own a penny or a bank account. All the money gathered goes to maintenance of the parish(es) food and charitable work. (Sadly, this now includes paying for the ‘filth’ among us) I know some parishes donate the car for the priest to use but it belongs to the parish and normally remains there when he moves to another parish; or the parish lets him keep the car.

Second, the reason WHY Christ, and WHY death?
Genesis: “…for if you eat of the fruit of the Tree, you will surely die…”

God did not CHANGE His mind and decided to ‘rescue’ us from death. He had spoken and death it was. To overcome His decree, ONLY HE, for there is none equal, (Qualified) can submit Himself to something He reigns over (Death) in order to RESTORE His creature creation (His Image/Us) to its former state; EVERLASTING LIFE with Him!
(Rank for rank, pound for pound…)

Is “Love” adequate to describe such an act by such Supremacy?? About as adequate as our brains trying to comprehend Him!

Just ‘hitching a ride’ on your coat-tails, corban. Sorry​

Dear Deconi.

Educating ourselves with factual historical information (How Old is Your Church?) is never a killjoy. The truth should never be a killjoy but rather much appreciated food for the mind. (Truth is the only food that nourishes the mind.)

Yes, it is true what you said. The priest does not keep a cent of the small annual salary he receives because it is spent to buy personal things throughout the year. That small salary is given to him by the Archdiocese to cover his personal expenses, and the Archdiocese takes care of the rest (shelter, food, clothing). Correction Deconi: The priest’s annual salary is not taken from the money gathered from parishioners on Sunday Masses as you implied. The money that comes from Sunday collections is used, as you said, for the maintenance of the parish, to help other charities, parishes, ministries, etc., but not one cent of it goes to pay the salaries of the priests. Please make a note of that.

Second correction: You said: “Second, the reason WHY Christ, and WHY death? Genesis: ‘…for if you eat of the fruit of the Tree, you will surely die…’” The punishment of physical death for eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge only applied to Adam and Eve, Deconi, not to God (Christ) Himself as you said. I am surprised you wrote that!

 You also wrote: “God did not CHANGE His mind and decided to 'rescue' us from death. He had spoken and death it was. To overcome His decree, ONLY HE, for there is none equal, (Qualified) can submit Himself to something He reigns over (Death) in order to RESTORE His creature creation (His Image/Us) to its former state; EVERLASTING LIFE with Him!”

Wow! Why do you complicate things? The first part of what you said is true. God did not change His mind. God never changes His mind about anything, because everything He does, He does it “correctly” the first time. (I never said that God changed His mind so I don’t know where you got that statement from.) And yes, once God spoke and warned our first parents not to disobey Him or death and sickness would enter their lives and Creation, He already knew they were going to disobey Him anyway, for God knows everything, even before it happens (He transcends time.). It is important to understand that Christ knew it was going to be necessary to sacrifice His life for mankind waayyyy before the Universe was Created through Him by the Father, through the Power of the Holy Spirit.
Moreover, Christ knew He was going to have to suffer and die for us even before the angels were created. But no, death was not a punishment that Christ’s humanity had to suffer, as you suggested, for Adam and Eve’s Sin of disobedience. The punishment of death for their disobedience applied only to Adam and Eve and their descendants (us), not to God. God did not punish Himself for Adam and Eve’s Sin of disobedience, but rather gave His life freely in order to redeem us for the reason I stated earlier. (Keep in mind that death and sickness is a punishment for sin, and Christ never sinned, neither in His Divinity nor in His humanity.)

No, Deconi, Christ did not die on the Cross because His human nature had to die like ours has to (because of sin), but because HE WANTED TO: And the only way He could do it was to acquire the human nature – become a human person - in order to represent both mankind and God during His suffering and Death so that it would suffice. (Read the original post I submitted for more.)

Hope this helps


Corban36

 

[Deconi]

---

Dear Deconi.

Educating ourselves with factual historical information (How Old is Your Church?) is never a killjoy. The truth should never be a killjoy but rather much appreciated food for the mind. (Truth is the only food that nourishes the mind.)

Yes, it is true what you said. The priest does not keep a cent of the small annual salary he receives because it is spent to buy personal things throughout the year. That small salary is given to him by the Archdiocese to cover his personal expenses, and the Archdiocese takes care of the rest (shelter, food, clothing). Correction Deconi: The priest’s annual salary is not taken from the money gathered from parishioners on Sunday Masses as you implied. The money that comes from Sunday collections is used, as you said, for the maintenance of the parish, to help other charities, parishes, ministries, etc., but not one cent of it goes to pay the salaries of the priests. Please make a note of that.

Second correction: You said: “Second, the reason WHY Christ, and WHY death? Genesis: ‘…for if you eat of the fruit of the Tree, you will surely die…’” The punishment of physical death for eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge only applied to Adam and Eve, Deconi, not to God (Christ) Himself as you said. I am surprised you wrote that!

 You also wrote: “God did not CHANGE His mind and decided to 'rescue' us from death. He had spoken and death it was. To overcome His decree, ONLY HE, for there is none equal, (Qualified) can submit Himself to something He reigns over (Death) in order to RESTORE His creature creation (His Image/Us) to its former state; EVERLASTING LIFE with Him!”

Wow! Why do you complicate things? The first part of what you said is true. God did not change His mind. God never changes His mind about anything, because everything He does, He does it “correctly” the first time. (I never said that God changed His mind so I don’t know where you got that statement from.) And yes, once God spoke and warned our first parents not to disobey Him or death and sickness would enter their lives and Creation, He already knew they were going to disobey Him anyway, for God knows everything, even before it happens (He transcends time.). It is important to understand that Christ knew it was going to be necessary to sacrifice His life for mankind waayyyy before the Universe was Created through Him by the Father, through the Power of the Holy Spirit.
Moreover, Christ knew He was going to have to suffer and die for us even before the angels were created. But no, death was not a punishment that Christ’s humanity had to suffer, as you suggested, for Adam and Eve’s Sin of disobedience. The punishment of death for their disobedience applied only to Adam and Eve and their descendants (us), not to God. God did not punish Himself for Adam and Eve’s Sin of disobedience, but rather gave His life freely in order to redeem us for the reason I stated earlier. (Keep in mind that death and sickness is a punishment for sin, and Christ never sinned, neither in His Divinity nor in His humanity.)

No, Deconi, Christ did not die on the Cross because His human nature had to die like ours has to (because of sin), but because HE WANTED TO: And the only way He could do it was to acquire the human nature – become a human person - in order to represent both mankind and God during His suffering and Death so that it would suffice. (Read the original post I submitted for more.)

Hope this helps


Corban36

My apologies. We clearly crossed wires somewhere for I was simply adding on to your elaboration, and tried to ‘summarise’ it all into a paragraph! I was not ‘correcting’ nor disagreeing with you.

It’s no biggie, but if you re-read that post again and notice the punctuation marks, you’ll see I concur with you, fully!

Since God in the Genesis passage is addressing Adam about the consequence of ‘eating the fruit,’ I took it for granted that the reader understands that the consequences applies only to the subject being addressed; Adam & Eve.

But, when they transgressed and consigned creation to ‘death,’ God cannot redeem them by another decree that contradicts His first decree, for He is Perfection and He CANNOT contradict Himself. Sure, all things are possible to Him, but it is IMPOSSIBLE for Him to contradict His Nature; cannot lie; cannot change His mind; cannot undo a devine decree!

Yet, He desires His creation (us) to be with Him! Enter, The Son, the Second Personage of The Trinity, who is the only one QUALIFIED to redeem us and return us to ‘Eden.’

The rest is history and what is to come, as you’ve illuminated well.

 

[planten]

I am surprised about the words “God cannot change His mind.” I do not know much about its application to the subject in hand i.s. Jesus as God. I am not discussing that. But I see that God is free to do what He likes, what He wills.

I have found some cases where God decided to punish a nation and even told His prophet (Jonas) that the city (Ninevah) will be destroyed within XX days. But when the people of that city came out in canvas clothes and wept and repented, God forgave them. The punishment was averted.

We see many such cases in normal life. A person is sick and apparantly bound to die. Treatment is going on. But there is no improvement in health. The patient does not rally, does not recover.

Then his relatives ( or he himslef) give alms in the name of God and pray to God for the recovery of the patient. It so happens that the person recovers and returns to good health.

What shall we call that please?? Would it be considered as a change in the decision of God??

We know that if god has made a promise for the good of a person or nation, it may have some conditions attached with that promise or there may be no conditions, the promise of God is most certainly fulfilled. But if there is a promise from God with some bad news, then even if there are no conditions, that fate can be averted by sincere prayers and repentence.

If we as mortal beings can change our mind, why can Merciful God not do such thing !!

 

[Anna_Scott]

(Continued from above.)

CONGREGATIONALIST - Robert Brown

If you are a Congregationalist, your Protestant religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

BAPTIST - John Smyth

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your Protestant religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1606.

DUTCH REFORMED – Michaelis Jones

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your Protestant religion in New York in 1628.

EPISCOPALIAN - Samuel Seabury

If you are an Episcopalian, your Protestant religion was an off-shoot of the Church of England, and was founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

METHODIST – John and Charles Wesley

If you are a Methodist, your Protestant religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

UNITARIAN – Theophilus Lindley

If you are Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your Protestant church in London in 1774.

MORMON – Joseph Smith

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1829.

SALVATION ARMY - William Booth

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST – Mary Baker Eddy

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your Protestant religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

ROMAN CATHOLIC – Jesus Christ

If you are a Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ, the Son of God, with Peter as its first Pope.

oOo

After taking the above historical facts into account, this means that from the time Christ established His Church on Earth in the year 33 A.D. to the time of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, for about 1500 years, the Catholic Church was the only Christian body of believers spreading the Gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ throughout the world, as Christ instructed. In other words, a single Protestant church did not even exist for those first 1500 years after Christ ascended into Heaven, leaving Peter as the head (Pope) of His Church - His original Church. The truth of this single historical fact should be very important – in fact, paramount - for the true follower of Christ, for Christ exhorted all His followers to remain united to Him at all times, something that can only be fully accomplished by remaining united to His only Church, of course. In fact, that is one of the main reasons why Christ established His Church on Earth in the first place: so that all who wanted to follow Him would be able to remain united to Him. After Peter declared that Jesus was truly the Son of God: God Himself in the flesh, Christ said: “And so I tell you, Peter: you are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church, and not even death will ever be able to overcome it… If you love me, you will obey my commandments… Whoever accepts my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me… Whoever does not love me does not obey my teaching… I am the vine and you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, and I in him, will bear much fruit; for you can do nothing without me. … If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love” (Matthew 16:18. John 14:15, 21, 24; 15: 5, 10.). In spite of the strange and confusing times we are living in, the above enumerated facts are still undeniable. These are, in fact, absolute truths.

CLOSING NOTE

It is estimated that 50 to 80 new Protestant churches are born every day in the United States alone, not only for the tax exempt status they enjoy, given to them directly by the government, but also – and most importantly - for the high potential in monetary profits gathered from the members on a weekly basis during Sunday service. All Protestant pastors of large congregations earn six figure incomes due to the mandatory 10% tithing (contributions) required from their loyal followers. Much smaller by comparison, the annual salary for a Catholic diocesan priest in 1993 was only $ 8,000.00. I am sure it has gone up by now but probably not by much. One can therefore quickly see that, contrary to some opinions out there, the Catholic priesthood is not a lucrative business.

Corban36:

Somehow you managed to turn this thread into an anti-Protestant platform, in a rather
condescending way.

Fortunately, not all Catholic forum members use this approach. Many Catholic and Orthodox forum members have helped me greatly, as I press onward in my journey. To them I am very grateful.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Dear Anna.

I noticed after reading post # 79 that you are a Protestant and not a Catholic. I was not aware of that ‘till now. This explains why you are having such a hard time understanding why Christ had to die to redeem us, and also, why you are having such difficulty explaining this to your Jewish friend(s).

First of all, being a Protestant Christian does not mean that you are on an equal par with practicing Catholic Christians, you must understand this from the get-go, and the reason is simple: because Protestants do not believe the same things that Catholics believe in and are not members of the Mystical Body of Christ on Earth. Catholicism is **authentic **Christianity, Protestantism is not. Therefore, since Protestants do not follow the actual teachings of Christ, as practicing Catholics do, it is more difficult for them to explain Christian mysteries not only to themselves, but also to others of different faiths. This is why Protestants are not on an equal par with Catholics and never will be, and not only in this regard, but in others as well.

It is very important for you to know that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that Christ founded 2000 years ago. It is the Original - and only - Church that Christ established on Earth, and its members, who regularly practice their faith, are the only Christians on Earth who are in complete communion with Christ. The Catholic Church had been spreading the Gospel of Christ all over the world for almost 1600 years before the first Protestant denomination came into existence, (see “How Old is Your Church” below.), which proves – beyond the shadow of a doubt – that it is in fact the Original Church that Christ founded. We may be able to change other things, but we can’t change history. Therefore, if you want to be a member of the original body of Christian believers, and you want to learn the authentic Christian teachings given to mankind by Jesus Christ Himself, there is no other choice but to join the Catholic Church**. (See John 15:1-10; 17: 21-23.) Once you become a member of the Church and learn the teachings of the Church, you will have the necessary education to properly teach others the teachings of Christ and their meanings. There is no other way. **

The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ on Earth. Protestants are not members of this Body of Christian believers. The Protestants who truly believe that Jesus is the Son of God belong to the “Spirit” of Christ, but not to the Body of Christ. Catholics, on the other hand, belong to both the Body and the Spirit of Christ. This is very important to understand if you want to be a true Christian: a true follower of Christ.

Secondly, you erred by saying that I contradicted myself when I said that God could have redeemed us a number of ways but chose the Death of His Son on a Cross as the only way to redeem us “correctly”. There is no contradiction here, Anna. To explain this further, this simply means that God could have redeemed mankind a number of different ways because God can do anything since nothing is impossible to Him, but He decided that the ONLY way to redeem us “correctly”, so to speak, was through the Death of His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, and it is not hard to understand WHY He decided to redeem us this way for the reason I already gave in my earlier post. There is no reason to complicate the matter, and there is no contradiction in what I said if you read it “correctly”. To underscore this truth, Jesus Himself said: “The greatest love a person can have for his friends is to give his life for them” (John 15:13).

Moreover, you said: “If you maintain that the sacrifice of Christ was the ‘only correct way,’ then that would mean if God did it any other way, He would be doing it ‘incorrectly.’ So, there is a flaw in your logic.” There is no flaw in my logic - and no flaw in God’s logic either. You evidently did not notice the reason why I used the word “correct” to illustrate why God preferred Death of His Son on a Cross to redeem mankind over any other way. It is not a contradiction to use the word “correct” because it is a very appropriate word to use. If God had redeemed us some other way besides Death on a Cross, it would not have been the “correct” way to do it, much the same way as it would not have been the “correct” way to make a human with four arms instead of only two, or with four legs instead of only two. Yes, God could’ve made us with four arms and four legs instead of two of each but He did not because, in His Mind, it was the “correct” way to make us this way. I hope you understand now why I used the word “correct”. As I said before, God always does things the “correct” way (as opposed to the “incorrect” way). Now, if you disagree with the way God does things, you’ll have to take it up with Him, not with me.
(Continued below.)

Again, very condescending–not helpful.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thirdly, you said:” I think the simplest way [to redeem us] would be to say, ‘your sins are forgiven,’ which is exactly how Christ forgave sins during His ministry.” Please remember that although Christ forgave the sins of some of the people he encountered, and also healed many who were sick and raised the dead, they were not redeemed yet - they were only redeemed after His Death on the Cross. Now, in regards to His Death on the Cross being a simple way to Redeem us, I never said His Death on the Cross was simple (i.e., trivial), but rather that everything God does is simple to Him, which is not the same thing. God is Absolute Simplicity. Therefore, all He does is simple – to Him, not to us. Something that is very complicated to us is in fact very simple to Him. THAT is what I meant when I said that all things are simple to Him, and that all He does is simple, because they are - to Him. I hope you now understand what I meant when I said that everything God does is ”simple”. It is really quite simple to understand.

Lastly, you said: “I am considering the Jewish viewpoint….I’m not sure I would accept this so easily, if I were looking at this from a Jewish perspective. The whole point of this Thread is to be able to answer the Jewish perspective.”

Even though the objective of this thread was indeed to answer a Jew’s question: “Why Did He [Jesus] Have to Die**?”, I think it was even more**** important that YOU - and ALL the other Christians who participated in this thread - were given the correct answer to this most important question.**However, that being said, you cannot answer the “Jewish perspective” because Jews do not believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, and much less, that His Death redeemed all mankind. It is not part of their belief system. In fact, they are still waiting for the Messiah! even though the Messiah already came over 2000 years ago! The Jews who have converted to Catholicism now understand and accept these truths (and are no longer Jews, by the way, they are now Catholics), but the Jews who have not converted do not believe and will not accept these truths – and many others. By the way, the Jews are no longer considered God’s Chosen People anymore (in case you didn’t know); it is the Christians, and more specifically the Catholics who are God’s Chosen People. With the coming of Christ, Judaism became an obsolete religion, and it is still an obsolete religion to this day. This is VERY important to keep in mind when talking with Jews because they still think they are God’s Chosen People - which is not true. Talking to some Jews (not all) about Christ and Catholicism will usually only get you a headache. In fact, even Christ Himself, who was God in the flesh, often said to them in person: “You have ears but do not listen; and you have eyes but do not see….how stubborn you are!” He also called them names that were “not too nice” by today’s standards: brood of vipers, fools, whitewashed tombs, sons of the devil, etc. As you can see, Jesus was obviously not interested in political correctness, as evidenced throughout the entire NT. Very important to keep this in mind too.

The only thing we can do, Anna, as good Christians, is try our best to explain the actual teachings of Christ to others, especially to unbelievers (which also includes Protestants, by the way), and if they do not accept these truths, we must then do what Christ told us to do: “shake the dust from our feet” (don’t waste our time anymore with them), “and continue on our way”.

May the Peace of Christ be with all of you this Thanksgiving Day and always.

Corban36
(Continued below.)

This Thread is not about whether or not the Jews are God’s Chosen people.

You attitude toward the Jewish people falls in line with a long history of Christian assaults on the Jewish people, and does not in any way demonstrate the love of Christ.

As the OP, let me be very clear: anti-Jewish rhetoric is not welcome on this Thread.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

I came to realize that I was focusing too much on His crucifixion and was missing the importance of His life.
Jesus was completely human. He was born. So it follows naturally that He had to die.
He has experienced everything we have experienced including love, hate, joy and pain.

How does this save us from our sins?
It is not because His Father required a bloody sacrifice.
Jesus has shown us, through His life as well as His death, that if we do the right thing at each step along our path that, in the end, we will arrive at a place more glorious than we can ever imagine.
We will be saved from our sins because we will learn not to sin.

Just look at the Stations of the Cross. In each Jesus is showing us that yes, He also endured the situations we endure - betrayal by a dear friend, accusations by people who don’t understand us, pain and suffering through no fault of our own. And He also knew the joy of love, the help of strangers, a shoulder to lean on.

He has shown us that, no matter what happens to us, we will succeed if we walk our path even unto death.
I always wondered how I was supposed to know the answer to “What would Jesus do?”.
I have come to realize that the answer is always the same - He would walk His path.
By His life and His death He shows us that simply walking one’s path leads us to glory.

Why did He have to die? Because He was born.
He showed us how to live. He showed us how to die.

Go with Love, Go with God

DarkNight:

I am quoting you again, because your words are so insightful and inspirational. You describe the great love of Christ, and you present your viewpoint in a very charitable way. IOW, you speak of the love of Christ in a way that demonstrates the love of Christ.

God bless you DarkNight,
Anna

 

[corban36]

My apologies. We clearly crossed wires somewhere for I was simply adding on to your elaboration, and tried to ‘summarise’ it all into a paragraph! I was not ‘correcting’ nor disagreeing with you.

It’s no biggie, but if you re-read that post again and notice the punctuation marks, you’ll see I concur with you, fully!

Since God in the Genesis passage is addressing Adam about the consequence of ‘eating the fruit,’ I took it for granted that the reader understands that the consequences applies only to the subject being addressed; Adam & Eve.

But, when they transgressed and consigned creation to ‘death,’ God cannot redeem them by another decree that contradicts His first decree, for He is Perfection and He CANNOT contradict Himself. Sure, all things are possible to Him, but it is IMPOSSIBLE for Him to contradict His Nature; cannot lie; cannot change His mind; cannot undo a devine decree!

Yet, He desires His creation (us) to be with Him! Enter, The Son, the Second Personage of The Trinity, who is the only one QUALIFIED to redeem us and return us to ‘Eden.’

The rest is history and what is to come, as you’ve illuminated well.​

Very well put. But no need to apologize, I was not offended by your post.

God bless
corban36

 

[corban36]

I am surprised about the words “God cannot change His mind.” I do not know much about its application to the subject in hand i.s. Jesus as God. I am not discussing that. But I see that God is free to do what He likes, what He wills.

I have found some cases where God decided to punish a nation and even told His prophet (Jonas) that the city (Ninevah) will be destroyed within XX days. But when the people of that city came out in canvas clothes and wept and repented, God forgave them. The punishment was averted.

We see many such cases in normal life. A person is sick and apparantly bound to die. Treatment is going on. But there is no improvement in health. The patient does not rally, does not recover.

Then his relatives ( or he himslef) give alms in the name of God and pray to God for the recovery of the patient. It so happens that the person recovers and returns to good health.

What shall we call that please?? Would it be considered as a change in the decision of God??

We know that if god has made a promise for the good of a person or nation, it may have some conditions attached with that promise or there may be no conditions, the promise of God is most certainly fulfilled. But if there is a promise from God with some bad news, then even if there are no conditions, that fate can be averted by sincere prayers and repentence.

If we as mortal beings can change our mind, why can Merciful God not do such thing !!

---

Dear planten

Although it may appear to us that God sometimes changes His mind - as evidenced by certain passages in Scripture, God did not and does not change His mind about anything. God already **knows **what is going to happen but man does not, and so His actions are carried out as He originally planned, which may be surprising to us but not to Him. Remember that God transcends time and everything that has happened and will happen is already known by Him. He doesn’t have to wait - like we do - to find out what is going to happen in order to decide what to do then. WE have to wait, but he does not. Therefore, what He ends up doing is what He planned on doing in the first place and no change of Mind ever takes place. I hope you understand this now.

corban36

 

[corban36]

Somehow you managed to turn this thread into an anti-Protestant platform, in a rather
condescending way.

Fortunately, not all Catholic forum members use this approach. Many Catholic and Orthodox forum members have helped me greatly, as I press onward in my journey. To them I am very grateful.

Anna​

My dear Anna

I did not turn this thread into an anti-Protestant platform as you claim I did. I merely added some very important facts that became necessary to this discussion. Nothing I said was out of context. If you were offended somehow by the truths I stated, this cannot be avoided for sometimes it hurts to be told the truth. I did not present these facts to intentionally injure you or anyone else. I merely saw it necessary to add these truths and “let the chips fall where they may.” Many people were seriously offended by Christ, by the Words He directed at them, even by many of His disciples, and this will not change 'till the End of Time. The Truth is like a sword - it can cause a lot of pain sometimes.

Please keep in mind that you are expressing your thoughts, feelings, and asking questions in a Catholic forum, not in a Protestant forum, so anything that is said herein, as long as it is the Catholic truth, should not be offensive to anyone - except maybe to non-Catholics, and this many times cannot be helped no matter how nicely these truths are expressed.

As I said before, if you truly want to be a follower of Christ, it is absolutely necessary to become a Catholic. There is nothing offensive about that truth.

May God continue to bless you and guide you on your journey. I will continue to pray for you.

Love Always
corban36

 

[yankee_doodle]

The answer my dear is in the Bible… Start of the beginning Genesis and get to the end.

Read everything, take notes & you will understand.

In Genesis you’ll find a story, based on earlier Sumerian polytheistic myths, which we know could not have happened. Moving onto Exodus, you’ll find a story archeologists and historians have concluded is outside the range of reasonable historical possibility.

Then as you continue reading you’ll notice the book has all sorts of parallels to earlier Egyptian and Hellenic myths. You’ll also notice that its god has apparently decided to let us fend for ourselves (since he never appears to civilized peoples, but rather only to primitive and superstitious cultures).

At the end of the day you’ll realize either critical examination must stop, or the slippery slope of reason can only lead you to one logical end.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Corban36:

Somehow you managed to turn this thread into an anti-Protestant platform, in a rather
condescending way.

Fortunately, not all Catholic forum members use this approach. Many Catholic and Orthodox forum members have helped me greatly, as I press onward in my journey. To them I am very grateful.

Anna

This Thread is not about whether or not the Jews are God’s Chosen people.

You attitude toward the Jewish people falls in line with a long history of Christian assaults on the Jewish people, and does not in any way demonstrate the love of Christ.

As the OP, let me be very clear: anti-Jewish rhetoric is not welcome on this Thread.

Anna

My dear Anna

I did not turn this thread into an anti-Protestant platform as you claim I did. I merely added some very important facts that became necessary to this discussion. Nothing I said was out of context. If you were offended somehow by the truths I stated, this cannot be avoided for sometimes it hurts to be told the truth. I did not present these facts to intentionally injure you or anyone else. I merely saw it necessary to add these truths and “let the chips fall where they may.” Many people were seriously offended by Christ, by the Words He directed at them, even by many of His disciples, and this will not change 'till the End of Time. The Truth is like a sword - it can cause a lot of pain sometimes.

Please keep in mind that you are expressing your thoughts, feelings, and asking questions in a Catholic forum, not in a Protestant forum, so anything that is said herein, as long as it is the Catholic truth, should not be offensive to anyone - except maybe to non-Catholics, and this many times cannot be helped no matter how nicely these truths are expressed.

As I said before, if you truly want to be a follower of Christ, it is absolutely necessary to become a Catholic. There is nothing offensive about that truth.

May God continue to bless you and guide you on your journey. I will continue to pray for you.

Love Always
corban36

Continuing this distracting side bar:

I realize that I am on a Catholic Forum. I actually started a Thread this week to thank CAF. See link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=400056

The truth is never offensive, but a condescending “delivery” is offensive.

I haven’t been on the forums very long, but I have 755 posts compared to your 16 posts. So, your criticisms of Protestantism contain nothing I haven’t already heard.

There are many kind and caring Catholics here at CAF, who have helped me in so many ways. These Catholics demonstrate, daily, that they can speak what they hold as truth in a way that is helpful and respectful.

Your criticisms of Protestants and Jews were not necessary for the discussion of our topic.

You’ve managed to derail the topic, temporarily. I won’t indulge you further.

 

[jakasaki]

In Genesis you’ll find a story, based on earlier Sumerian polytheistic myths, which we know could not have happened. Moving onto Exodus, you’ll find a story archeologists and historians have concluded is outside the range of reasonable historical possibility.

Then as you continue reading you’ll notice the book has all sorts of parallels to earlier Egyptian and Hellenic myths. You’ll also notice that its god has apparently decided to let us fend for ourselves (since he never appears to civilized peoples, but rather only to primitive and superstitious cultures).

At the end of the day you’ll realize either critical examination must stop, or the slippery slope of reason can only lead you to one logical end.

Ahhhhh ~ the atheist hath spoken!

I still feel like breaking into song and dance when I see your profile name…!!

 

[KathleenGee]

He cannot separate myth from authentic faith…

 

[corban36]

This Thread is not about whether or not the Jews are God’s Chosen people.
You attitude toward the Jewish people falls in line with a long history of Christian assaults on the Jewish people, and does not in any way demonstrate the love of Christ.
As the OP, let me be very clear: anti-Jewish rhetoric is not welcome on this Thread.

Anna

---

And as a devout, practicing, and educated Catholic, let me be very clear to you: your anti-Catholic attitude is certainly not welcome here. This is a Catholic forum. Please respect that and always keep it in mind. I have to correct you once again. What I said earlier, that the Jews are no longer God’s Chosen People (Catholics are), and that Judaism has been an obsolete religion for over 2000 years now, is not “anti-Jewish rhetoric”, and it is not my personal opinion either. It is the Official Position proclaimed by the Roman Catholic Church. You do not know the Official Position of the Roman Catholic Church in regards to Jews and Judaism because you are not a Catholic, but you know it now. We respect and love our Jewish brothers and sisters, but we have the obligation and duty to defend and proclaim the truths given to us by Our Lord, Jesus the Christ. This is why it is imperative for you to become a Catholic and study the teachings of the Church, as I said earlier, so that you can converse intelligently on the matter with others.

And as far as the truths I stated not demonstrating the love of Christ as you proclaimed, it was in fact the Apostles - **and Christ Himself **- who told the Jews this, not me. Please get your facts straight.

Here you, a Protestant, come to a Catholic forum and start putting Catholics down because they don’t see things YOUR way. That is not correct, and certainly not Christian. And then, when you finally receive from me a precise explanation on why Christ had to die for OUR sins (the answer to the original question of this thread), you don’t even acknowledge it or even say thanks for it. Where is your gratitude, Anna? It doesn’t appear to me that you were honestly searching for the correct answer to this question, but rather that you had another objective in mind.

I don’t quite know exactly what you are trying to achieve by coming to visit us here in this Catholic forum, what you are trying to prove, or what your real objective is, but it doesn’t appear to me to be a very honest and sincere one. I have given you factual Catholic Answers, hard ones for non-Catholics to accept, I must admit, but your reaction has been very negative and defensive without good reason. And now, after everything else, you falsely accuse me of being anti-Jewish! I believe you owe me an apology, dear.

It is true that the truth hurts, and sometimes a lot, especially if we are not disposed to it. There is nothing we can do to avoid that, but what we can do - and should do - is to accept the truth with grace, gratitude, and love when it comes our way.

I will continue to pray for you: that you will receive understanding, among other things.

corban36

 

[Anna_Scott]

Let’s try to get back on topic.

**A Jewish author posed a very important question (paraphrased):

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did anyone have to die for our salvation?**

I have received some very insightful responses. I did ask BWolf to post an excellent commentary from a link he gave me on “Christ becoming sin.” Hope he has time.

For those who have just joined the discussion; and wish to contribute, the following is a quote from my Original Post:

Micah 6: 6 “With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” 8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Proverbs 21: 2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart. 3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Jeremiah 7: 22 **For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. **23But this command I gave them: **‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’
**
Even in the N.T. we find **Jesus quoting **Hosea 6:6:

Matthew 9: 12 But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Hosea 6: 4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6** For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.**

One of the most intriguing passages in the NT reveals Jesus agreeing that loving God and your neighbor is more important than “all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

This seems to be a very strange thing for Jesus to say, since he came as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

Also, throughout the NT, Jesus forgave sins. Not once did he tell those he forgave to go and make a sacrifice to complete the forgiveness.

In addition, John proclaimed Baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

**Luke 3: **2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 1: 4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Quote from CAF Forum Administrator

Link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=132852

There is an expectation here at CAF that we all should behave with civility. In practice this means striving to deliver our comments here with as much charity as we can muster.

Some Catholics who are going through a renewal of their faith can take on a somewhat strident tone. Having re-discovered the truth of their faith, they then proceed to jump on a soapbox and start proclaiming the truth as they see it. Fellow Catholics, priests, bishops, even the pope, are subject to “correction.” Perhaps they do not realize that this behavior often comes across to others as trying to use doctrine as a weapon.

Here are some quotations from Church leaders to consider closely:

“Win an argument and lose a soul.”
– Bishop Fulton Sheen

“Love without truth would be blind; truth without love would be like ‘a clanging cymbal.’”
– Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Homily

“Preach the gospel at all times, and, when necessary, use words.”
– St. Francis (attributed)

“You know well enough that our Lord does not look so much at the greatness of our actions, nor even at their difficulty, but at the love with which we do them.”
– St. Therese of Lisieux

“Though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could move mountains, but have not charity, I am nothing… Love does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil… Love bears all things … endures all things. So faith, hope, charity abide, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”
– St. Paul (1 Cor. 13:2, 5, 7, 14)

“Always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.”
– St. Peter (1 Pet. 3:15; RSV-CE)

Some members have left the Catholic Answers Forums because CAF management would not allow them to behave rudely. There are many venues on the Internet where one may behave as uncharitably as one desires. This is not one of them.

It should also be noted that Catholics are NOT given preference because of their religious affiliation. In fact, Catholics are often held to a higher standard. As our Lord cautioned, “To whom much is given, of him will much be required” (Luke 12:48). Here at CAF, we believe that the truth will take care of itself. Our job is to reveal it as charitably as we can.

Finally, the Moderators are prepared to help members remain within the boundaries of charity. But that only works if each of us is willing to co-operate. Please accept moderator guidance graciously and with the Christian gentleness St. Peter spoke of, even if you feel you have been wronged. (And don’t forget that if you do feel that your case needs to be reviewed, you are free to appeal Mod actions to the Admin staff at forumadmin@catholic.com.) But please keep in mind that making continual complaints about a perceived slight or injustice is counterproductive. The Mods only have so much time to devote to CAF. Rather, offer it up. Others will benefit spiritually from your pain. It’s the Catholic thing to do.

 

[Anna_Scott]

**I’m going through the many excellent responses and quoting some key points: **

. . .For me, it goes back to offerings: the purpose was to show Him how sorry we were for our sins. His people seemed to understand sacrifices. Indeed, the Bible, from cover to cover, tells us instances that offerings were offered up as a sign of repentance. By his telling people that He would come, and indeed be the paschal Lamb, he, too, was offering a sacrifice for our salvation. .

Because sin must be punished with death. This is one of the rules of creation. And instead of changing the rules - which isn’t just - God offers himself to bear the punishment of our sin. Now, his descendants - whom he loves so much - will live a long life (Isaiah 53:10).

You can ‘make’ Scripture support virtually anything by ‘cherry picking’ and then interpreting only what you want that Scripture to be ‘saying’. . .but only by testing Scripture as a whole and relating it to ALL of Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and not just on phrases taken out of context. . .

These verses make it clear that he was the saviour of the whole nation of Israel.

I think eternal death is the punishment for not repenting for sins…does that make sense? I think even Judas had a chance to repent. Whether or not he did, I’ll have to wait for the answer . .Perhaps he chose death because we as people understand it as a finality. I don’t think God is bound by anything…he’s God But in a way He is bound by His word…

God is also just. The interaction between God and man, instituted BY God, was a covenant relationship. . .There is nothing special about the blood of lambs or bulls that magically pays for a man’s sin. Those sacrifices were symbolic, that is, they demonstrated the price of sin was death, blood being the symbol of it. But that blood was itself insufficient. It was only a precursor to what would come later, the living Messiah whose own spilled blood paid the actual price, who, being without sin or blemish, paid in an unjust way the ultimate penalty demanded by God’s justice. Jesus was the unblemished lamb.

. . it WAS the way that God chose, and you’d have to ask Him why - we don’t get to know the mind of God. .

. . The short answer is that God didn’t ‘need’ to do anything, but freely chose this route because He thought it was the absolute best and perfect means to demonstrate His infinite grace/mercy and love. The mechanism is complex indeed.

References given by Crisco:

St. Anselm of Canterbury “Cure Deus Homo” (why God became man.)
Aquinas’s Summa has a few good chapters on the topic.
Gary Anderson’s recent book “Sin - a history.”
Rene Girard’s work (Christ’s sacrifice is a sacrifice to end sacrifice) as expounded by Mark Heim in his book “Saved from Sacrifice”.
C.S. Lewis also deals with this in a chapter of Mere Christianity (chapter title - the perfect penitent).

Just looking at one of your points Matthew 9:13, taken from the Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary
(Menochius) — Mercy, and not sacrifice. Christ here prefers mercy to sacrifice; for, as St. Ambrose says, there is no virtue so becoming a Christian as mercy, but chiefly mercy to the poor. For if we give money to the poor, we at the same time give him life: if we clothe the naked, we adorn our souls with the robe of justice: if we receive the poor harbourless under our roof, we shall at the same time make friends with the saints in heaven, and shall afterwards be received by them into their eternal habitations. (St. Ambrose) — I will have mercy and not sacrifice: these words occur in the prophet Osee, chap. vi. The Pharisees thought they were making a great sacrifice, and acceptable to God, by breaking off all commerce with sinners; but God prefers the mercy of the charitable physician, who frequents the company of sinners; but merely to cure them. (Bible de Vence).

. .He did not have to suffer for our salvation! He chose to. He *could *have said, “OK, you are all saved,” and that would have been it.

But, love is an act of the will. To show us His great love for us, not only did He, in the deepest sense, ***choose ***in His Will to suffer, but He choose to suffer to the furthest extremes possible, physically, mentally, spiritually, etc. (meaning no person will ever suffer anywhere *near *as much as He did.)

He chose to suffer to show how much He loves us. And not only that, but He would have suffered for all. . . even if it was to save just *one *soul!

. . .Don’t worry about it too much, though. It hurts Christ a lot more than it hurts you. Just pray that maybe God will give him the grace of repentance to open his eyes and heart to see Him. And remember, we are channels of grace to others. Sometimes we have to cheerfully take whatever they throw at us, or endure the indifference toward our love, because God may be using you in this way, through your suffering, to give him grace!

Great comments. I will post more summaries later.

Thank you all,
Anna