Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

[yankee_doodle]

Ahhhhh ~ the atheist hath spoken!

I still feel like breaking into song and dance when I see your profile name…!!

perhaps you’ll join us one day for beer and ping pong, trying to enjoy the only life we shall ever have the best we can

Not that religion can’t be a beautiful thing for some I suppose. But unfortunately it’s not real, and the evidence shows it to a sufficiently reasonable degree. Anyway, even when I was religious I couldn’t help but wonder if I’ll really be carted off to a celestial paradise after death (or whether I’ll awake to a new heaven and new earth, after all those annoying bad people were burnt like toast).

I guess I’m a skeptic by nature (or more accurately stated my rearing somehow suited me for it).

 

[yankee_doodle]

He cannot separate myth from authentic faith…

Isn’t that really saying I don’t have faith that religious claims are anymore than myth? I think the most likely scenario is the Jesus story passed through so many hands, decades upon decades of copies of manuscripts with numerous interpolations; that eventually fact became indistinguishable from myth (and the true story of whatever happened has been forever lost).

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Anna Scott asked me to post this blip from Saint Maximos the Confessor’s work in this thread. He speaks on the subject of Christ “becoming sin.” It’s from his Ad Thalassium 42, quoted from On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ.

Having originally been corrupted from its natural design, Adam’s free choice corrupted along with it our human nature, which forfeited the grace of impassibility. Thus sin came into existence. The first sin, the culpable indeed, was the fall of free choice from good into evil; the second, following upon the first, was the innocent transformation of human nature from incorruption into corruption. For our forefather Adam committed two “sins” by his transgression of God’s commandment: the first “sin” was culpable, when his free choice willfully rejected the good; but the second “sin,” occasioned by the first, was innocent, since human nature unwillingly put off its incorruption. Therefore our Lord and God, rectifying this reciprocal corruption and alteration of our human nature by taking on the whole of our nature, even had in his assumed nature the liability to passions which, in his own exercise of free choice, he adorned with incorruptibility. And it is by virtue of this assumption of this natural possibility that he became sin for our sake, though he did not know any deliberate sin because of the immutability of his free choice. Because his free choice was incorruptible, he rectified our nature’s liability to passions and turned the end of our nature’s possibility - which is death - into the beginning of our natural transformation to incorruption. In turn, just as though one man, who turned voluntarily from the good, the human nature was changed from incorruption to corruption to the detriment of all humanity, so too through one man, Jesus Christ, who did not voluntarily turn from the good, human nature underwent a restoration from corruption to incorruption for the benefit of all humanity.

Therefore the Lord did not know “my sin,” that is, the mutability of my free choice. Neither did He assume nor become my sin. Rather, he became the “sin that I caused”; in other words, he assumed the corruption of human nature that was a consequence of the mutability of my free choice. For our sake he became a human being naturally liable to passions, and used the “sin” that I caused to destroy the “sin” that I commit. Just as in Adam, with his own act of freely choosing evil, the common glory of human nature, incorruption, was robbed - since God judged that it was not right for humanity, having abused free choice, to have an immortal nature - so too in Christ, with his own act of freely choosing the good, the common scourge of our whole nature, corruption, was taken away. At the resurrection of Christ, human nature was transformed into incorruption because his free choice was immutable. For God judged that it was right for man, when he did not subvert his free choice, once again to recover an immortal nature. By “man” here I mean the incarnate Logos in virtue of the fact that he united to himself, hypostatically, the flesh animated by a rational soul. For if the deviance of free choice introduced possibility, corruptibility, and mortality in Adam’s nature, it only followed that in Christ, the immutability of free choice, realized through his resurrection, introduced natural impassibility, incorruptibility, and immortality.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. .the Jews are no longer God’s Chosen People (Catholics are), and that Judaism has been an obsolete religion for over 2000 years now, is not “anti-Jewish rhetoric”, and it is not my personal opinion either. It is the Official Position proclaimed by the Roman Catholic Church. .

Again, this Thread is not about whether or not the Jews are God’s chosen people. I wasn’t going to indulge this issue any further on this Thread; but I think I must.

I look to the words of Pope John Paul II in Nostra Aetate. (Emphasis throughout is mine)

The following article from AmericanCatholic.org gives an excellent overview of ***Nostra Aetate. ***

Pope John Paul II Built Strong Catholic-Jewish Ties, Priest Says
Source: Catholic News Service
Published: Saturday, September 19, 2009
Link: americancatholic.org/news/report.aspx?id=1600

ROCHESTER, N.Y.**—While the groundwork for improving Catholic-Jewish relations was laid out in the Second Vatican Council document “Nostra Aetate,” Pope John Paul II showed Catholics how to carry out the intentions of the document’s authors, said a priest who serves as a consultant on ecumenical and interreligious affairs to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.
**
**Father Dennis McManus **explained how Pope John Paul’s visionary thinking breathed life into the groundbreaking document, which served as the starting point for improved relations between Catholics and Jews.

He spoke during an Aug. 24 workshop at the Anti-Defamation League’s three-day Bearing Witness Summer Institute for Educators at St. Bernard’s School of Theology and Ministry.

“Nostra Aetate,” the council’s declaration on relations with non-Christian religions, addresses several main points regarding the religious basis of anti-Judaism, said Father McManus, who also is a visiting professor of theology at Georgetown University in Washington.

The first was that the church rejects the idea of the collective guilt of the Jews for the death of Jesus, he said. The second point was that the church accepts the validity of God’s covenant with the Jews.
“We respect and honor that covenant,” he explained. “Even as the Christian finds the fullest experience in Christ, it does not eliminate validity in Mosaic law.”

“Nostra Aetate” also stated that God does not regard Jews with contempt and they remain his chosen people, and that anti-Semitism is racist as a philosophy and has no place in Christianity, Father McManus said.

Pope John Paul apologized for any violence done against the Jews and wrote out a prayer that he placed in the Western Wall of Jerusalem, the priest said.

“It was astounding,” Father McManus said of Pope John Paul’s actions. “He was the first (pope) in the modern period to establish full diplomatic relations between the Vatican and Israel. He tried to reconcile the Catholic Church with Jews and Judaism. It was incredible.”

In a second presentation a day later, Father McManus said “Nostra Aetate” tried to correct common errors that many Catholics have about Jews and Judaism.

"It tries to say to Catholics that Jews are God’s beloved, chosen people, that their validity, and life and identity come from God, and we must respect that, and that anything short of that is anti-Semitism, and that is deeply sinful," Father McManus said.

These lessons from “Nostra Aetate” can be very hard for some Catholics to come to terms with, the priest said. “It has been a centuries-long struggle, but the message is as vital as it was 44 years ago,” he said.

To counteract anti-Semitism, Catholics need to be educated on the Judaism of Jesus, the theology professor added.

**“Once they understand that, they embrace the importance of Judaism as part of their own redemption,” **he said. **“Catholicism teaches that God has yet to work out his full plan of salvation for his world, and the Jews are an important part of that plan.”
**
The Bearing Witness program included presentations by several Jewish and Catholic experts.

Kenneth Jacobson, ADL’s deputy national director, addressed anti-Semitism’s long and complex history, which dates to before the birth of Christ, although it has taken on several transformations over the centuries.

He also cited the progress made in relations between Jews and Catholics in the last 50 years that has fostered an “open, honest conversation” to take place while allowing Catholics, as well as all Christians, to understand Judaism, the root of Christianity.

Anti-Semitism shares some but not all characteristics of other forms of hatred, such as racism, but racism is more of a “what you see is what you get” type of hatred, he explained. Outward appearance often is enough to trigger racial hatred, but that’s not the case with anti-Semitism.

“At the heart, it’s the idea that the Jews seem to be regular people like you and me, but that’s not the reality of the Jew. The (perceived) reality of the Jew is something hidden, something sinister, something powerful,” he said. “Once you establish that reality is not what it seems to be … then in almost any situation someone can stand up and say, ‘The real reason you’re suffering is because of the hidden power of the Jews.’”

It’s difficult, then, for anti-Semites to be dissuaded from their positions by logical arguments, since they believe the reality of the Jews is not what it appears to be, he added.

“That helps you explain why anti-Semitism is so enduring. Any time there’s a problem, somebody can seize on this issue and know there’s a long history of that and say, ‘Oh, that’s why you’re suffering,’” Jacobson said.

---

Contributing to this report were Annette Jimenez, Jennifer Burke and Amy Kotlarz.

Let’s get back to the Thread topic.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna Scott asked me to post this blip from Saint Maximos the Confessor’s work in this thread. He speaks on the subject of Christ “becoming sin.” It’s from his Ad Thalassium 42, quoted from On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ.

Having originally been corrupted from its natural design, Adam’s free choice corrupted along with it our human nature, which forfeited the grace of impassibility. Thus sin came into existence. The first sin, the culpable indeed, was the fall of free choice from good into evil; the second, following upon the first, was the innocent transformation of human nature from incorruption into corruption. For our forefather Adam committed two “sins” by his transgression of God’s commandment: the first “sin” was culpable, when his free choice willfully rejected the good; but the second “sin,” occasioned by the first, was innocent, since human nature unwillingly put off its incorruption. Therefore our Lord and God, rectifying this reciprocal corruption and alteration of our human nature by taking on the whole of our nature, even had in his assumed nature the liability to passions which, in his own exercise of free choice, he adorned with incorruptibility. And it is by virtue of this assumption of this natural possibility that he became sin for our sake, though he did not know any deliberate sin because of the immutability of his free choice. Because his free choice was incorruptible, he rectified our nature’s liability to passions and turned the end of our nature’s possibility - which is death - into the beginning of our natural transformation to incorruption. In turn, just as though one man, who turned voluntarily from the good, the human nature was changed from incorruption to corruption to the detriment of all humanity, so too through one man, Jesus Christ, who did not voluntarily turn from the good, human nature underwent a restoration from corruption to incorruption for the benefit of all humanity.

Therefore the Lord did not know “my sin,” that is, the mutability of my free choice. Neither did He assume nor become my sin. Rather, he became the “sin that I caused”; in other words, he assumed the corruption of human nature that was a consequence of the mutability of my free choice. For our sake he became a human being naturally liable to passions, and used the “sin” that I caused to destroy the “sin” that I commit. Just as in Adam, with his own act of freely choosing evil, the common glory of human nature, incorruption, was robbed - since God judged that it was not right for humanity, having abused free choice, to have an immortal nature - so too in Christ, with his own act of freely choosing the good, the common scourge of our whole nature, corruption, was taken away. At the resurrection of Christ, human nature was transformed into incorruption because his free choice was immutable. For God judged that it was right for man, when he did not subvert his free choice, once again to recover an immortal nature. By “man” here I mean the incarnate Logos in virtue of the fact that he united to himself, hypostatically, the flesh animated by a rational soul. For if the deviance of free choice introduced possibility, corruptibility, and mortality in Adam’s nature, it only followed that in Christ, the immutability of free choice, realized through his resurrection, introduced natural impassibility, incorruptibility, and immortality.

Thank you BWolf. This is an excellent article.

Anna

 

[yankee_doodle]

, quoted from On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ.

Poetic

 

[corban36]

Again, this Thread is not about whether or not the Jews are God’s chosen people. I wasn’t going to indulge this issue any further on this Thread; but I think I must.

I look to the words of Pope John Paul II in Nostra Aetate. (Emphasis throughout is mine)

The following article from AmericanCatholic.org gives an excellent overview of ***Nostra Aetate. ***

Pope John Paul II Built Strong Catholic-Jewish Ties, Priest Says
Source: Catholic News Service
Published: Saturday, September 19, 2009
Link: americancatholic.org/news/report.aspx?id=1600

Let’s get back to the Thread topic.

---

Anna.
Not only did you fail to apologize to me for accusing me falsely of being anti-Jewish, which I am not, but now you bring up this article by the late pope John Paul II as if it contradicts the truths I said regarding the Jews no longer being God’s Chosen People and that Judaism has been an obsolete religion since Christ came into the world. This article, nor any other teaching promulgated by the Roman Catholic Church, will contradict what I said because the Church Herself teaches these truths. If you (or anyone else) have any doubts on this matter, please contact someone like Scott Hahn, Jeff Cavins, father Mitch Pacwa, father John Corapi, or any other educated Catholic for verification. This attempt of yours to discredit not only what I said regarding the Jews and Judaism, but what the Church Herself teaches in this regard is a very low and disrespectful blow to any educated Catholic.

I don’t know about the rest of you folks, but I am abandoning this thread because it is very obvious that Anna has a negative agenda. I firmy believe she is not really interested in discovering the Truth of Christ, or engaging in truthful and sincere dialog with Catholics through this Catholic forum. I will not waste my time any more with someone like her who continues to treat Catholic teachings, dogmas, and people in this disrespectful way, not to mention accusing me falsely of anti-semitism without apologizing for doing so. It appears to me that she actually gets a kick out of corresponding with - and manipulating - uneducated Catholics, for when an educated one like me comes along, she throws a fit and starts trying to make them look bad. I don’t find this amusing, and I sincerely hope you don’t either.

corban36

 

[Anna_Scott]

---

Anna.
Not only did you fail to apologize to me for accusing me falsely of being anti-Jewish, which I am not, but now you bring up this article by the late pope John Paul II as if it contradicts the truths I said regarding the Jews no longer being God’s Chosen People and that Judaism has been an obsolete religion since Christ came into the world. This article, nor any other teaching promulgated by the Roman Catholic Church, will contradict what I said because the Church Herself teaches these truths. If you (or anyone else) have any doubts on this matter, please contact someone like Scott Hahn, Jeff Cavins, father Mitch Pacwa, father John Corapi, or any other educated Catholic for verification. This attempt of yours to discredit not only what I said regarding the Jews and Judaism, but what the Church Herself teaches in this regard is a very low and disrespectful blow to any educated Catholic.

I don’t know about the rest of you folks, but I am abandoning this thread because it is very obvious that Anna has a negative agenda. I firmy believe she is not really interested in discovering the Truth of Christ, or engaging in truthful and sincere dialog with Catholics through this Catholic forum. I will not waste my time any more with someone like her who continues to treat Catholic teachings, dogmas, and people in this disrespectful way, not to mention accusing me falsely of anti-semitism without apologizing for doing so. It appears to me that she actually gets a kick out of corresponding with - and manipulating - uneducated Catholics, for when an educated one like me comes along, she throws a fit and starts trying to make them look bad. I don’t find this amusing, and I sincerely hope you don’t either.

corban36

Corban:

If I have offended you, then I do apologize. Anyone who has read many of my posts knows that I do not have an anti-Catholic agenda. I am a Protestant searching and questioning the things I have been taught my whole life. I have found tremendous help and support from Catholic forum members, as well as Orthodox Christians, and other religions as well.

Nothing I have said is anti-Catholic. I have a great respect for Catholicism.

Still, I was offended by the way you spoke of the Jewish people, and I found your choice of words inconsistent with the teachings of Pope John Paul II, who I see as a great man in Christian history.

It is in no way my intention to deliver a “disrespectful blow to any educated Catholic,” as you claim. People who know me, here, will know that is not the case.

Surely, you can see how I would find a contradiction between your views and those of Pope John Paul II; and I am left wondering if you agree or disagree with the late Pope.

Since we both have strong opinions on the issue, and we both have felt offended; I ask that we simply forgive and move forward.

Anna

 

[DarkNight]

I sense that everything Jesus did was because of his love for us; could it just be possible that Jesus loves us as he loves himself?

All my life I had understood God and Jesus from one perspective.
Simpistically put, man had sinned and Jesus came to atone to God for our sins.
Then one day I began to question my understanding. I believed there was much that I was missing.
I began to know Jesus from a different perspective, the perspective of His complete humanity.

I learned of the theology of Blessed Jon Duns Scotus.
Most especially that the Incarnation was an integral part of God’s design for the universe.
That “God would have become man even if Adam had not sinned,
since He willed that in Christ humanity and the world should be united with Himself by the closest possible bond.”
Catholic Encyclopedia - Duns Scotus

“Even more than logic, Duns Scotus emphasized divine love.
God is love and created all life in order to communicate to creatures the fullness of divine love.
The Incarnate Word is the foundation of the creative plan of God, the very reason for the existence of all creation.
This emphasis on Christ as the center and cornerstone of all creation has become an essential dimension of Franciscan life and ministry.”The Incarnation: Why God wanted to become human

Yes, I sincerely believe that “God is Love” (1 John 4:16)
That all of creation springs forth simply because He is Love.
That all creation participates in His Love.

He lived for all, died for all, loves all.

I’m sorry to seem to have strayed off the topic of the crucifixion.
What I came to realize is that I couldn’t understand the crucifixion without understanding the Incarnation.

Go with Love, Go with God

 

[Anna_Scott]

All my life I had understood God and Jesus from one perspective.
Simpistically put, man had sinned and Jesus came to atone to God for our sins.
Then one day I began to question my understanding. I believed there was much that I was missing.
I began to know Jesus from a different perspective, the perspective of His complete humanity.

I learned of the theology of Blessed Jon Duns Scotus.
Most especially that the Incarnation was an integral part of God’s design for the universe.
That “God would have become man even if Adam had not sinned, since
He willed that in Christ humanity and the world should be united with Himself by the closest possible bond.”
Catholic Encyclopedia - Duns Scotus

“Even more than logic, Duns Scotus emphasized divine love.
God is love and created all life in order to communicate to creatures the fullness of divine love.
The Incarnate Word is the foundation of the creative plan of God, the very reason for the existence of all creation.
This emphasis on Christ as the center and cornerstone of all creation has become an essential dimension of Franciscan life and ministry.”The Incarnation: Why God wanted to become human

Yes, I sincerely believe that “God is Love” (1 John 4:16)
That all of creation springs forth simply because He is Love.
That all creation participates in His Love.

He lived for all, died for all, loves all.

I’m sorry to seem to have strayed off the topic of the crucifixion.
What I came to realize is that I couldn’t understand the crucifixion without understanding the Incarnation.

Go with Love, Go with God

DarkNight:

Again, another insightful and interesting post. It does make sense that love is at the heart of everything God does.

I have never heard or read this point of view: "That “God would have become man even if Adam had not sinned, since He willed that in Christ humanity and the world should be united with Himself by the closest possible bond.”

Much to ponder,
Anna

 

[Deconi]

DarkNight:

Again, another insightful and interesting post. It does make sense that love is at the heart of everything God does.

I have never heard or read this point of view: "That “God would have become man even if Adam had not sinned, since He willed that in Christ humanity and the world should be united with Himself by the closest possible bond.”

Much to ponder,
Anna

Danger hovers when human thought is inserted inappropriately to what had already occurred! There is no room to suppose if Adam had not sinned, God would still become Man!

The premise is that God knew Adam would sin before he was fashioned out of the ‘clay.’ We know this by reading in Wisdom and St John that before the world was made, Christ, WAS, IS and ever Shall Be!

 

[Anna_Scott]

Danger hovers when human thought is inserted inappropriately to what had already occurred! There is no room to suppose if Adam had not sinned, God would still become Man!

The premise is that God knew Adam would sin before he was fashioned out of the ‘clay.’ We know this by reading in Wisdom and St John that before the world was made, Christ, WAS, IS and ever Shall Be!

No arguments. What you are saying is true.

When I was looking back through all the posts on this Thread, I realized how few Protestants participated.

I have to say the Catholic and Orthodox comments have not only helped me answer the question for my Jewish friends; but they have also deepened my understanding of why Christ had to die and the purpose of His Passion and resurrection.

I did try asking Protestant friends, before I started this Thread. No one could really give me an answer regarding why Christ had to die, or why God chose to accomplish salvation in this way.

There have been some good comments from Protestants on this Thread, but so few attempted to answer the questions. I am really disappointed.

I really appreciate the work eveyone put into their comments.

Anna

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you Anna,

Possibly instead of saying that love is at the heart of all that God does, try saying that the greatest commandments are at the heart of all that God does. Before the creation of the universe began, could the greatest commandments possibly describe the trinity

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, mind, soul and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

God the Father loves Jesus the Son with all his heart, mind, soul and strength.
The Father loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

Could the spirit be the power of God’s love; working through the perfection of the greatest commandments?

Is it possible that God’s purpose is for each and every one of us to have this Trinitarian relationship with God and each other?

If we cannot forgive each other, then we cannot live by this Trinitarian purpose.

Just some thoughts

Blessings

Eric

 

[DarkNight]

The premise is that God knew Adam would sin before he was fashioned out of the ‘clay.’

The theology of Duns Scotus states the Incarnation was always central to God’s design.
It would have occurred irrespective of Adam’s decision to sin or not sin.
He always planned on walking among us.
Whether He walked in joy or atonement depended on Adam’s decision.

The “theology of joy” of Duns Scotus & the “theology of atonement” of Aquinas, both developed in the 13th century, are fully accepted by the Catholic Church.

To this day, the theology of joy is deeply rooted in Franciscan spirituality.

For a better understanding of Duns Scotus’ theology see
Incarnation in Franciscan Spirituality and Catholic Encyclopedia - Duns Scotus

It is a different and respected perspective.

Go with Love, Go with God

 

[Deconi]

No arguments. What you are saying is true.

When I was looking back through all the posts on this Thread, I realized how few Protestants participated.

I have to say the Catholic and Orthodox comments have not only helped me answer the question for my Jewish friends; but they have also deepened my understanding of why Christ had to die and the purpose of His Passion and resurrection.

I did try asking Protestant friends, before I started this Thread. No one could really give me an answer regarding why Christ had to die, or why God chose to accomplish salvation in this way.

There have been some good comments from Protestants on this Thread, but so few attempted to answer the questions. I am really disappointed.

I really appreciate the work eveyone put into their comments.

Anna

Try not to be too hard on our brethren in Christ, for they view the faith within us through a ‘shard’ of the reading glass, armed only with a deficient version of Holy Writ.

Our challenge is to point our enquirers to the ‘observatory’ of Catholicism; Sacred Taridition, Holy Scriptures and The Magisterium.

It is no work for those anchored in the fullness of Truth, although, at times we need to master the swell of ‘knowledge’ within our breast so we do not descent to the arena of battle to be convincing.

God Bless your search.

 

[KathleenGee]

I would also like to add that I grew up in a time when the culture was very anti-Catholic.

There are so many spins put out by all sorts about what they say we believe, how superstitious Catholics are by our devotions, and so on…I live in a state that tried to ban any work of Catholic priests and nuns. Our schools and hospitals are the best, and now the culture here does not want to repeat its past.

Regarding the atheists who come on here, they are very biased and some times they come across just to use the site here to dump on people. What about secular myths that destroy the lives of many and force unnecessary taxation on people using faulty information here?

I think Catholic Answers is a good site and I hope people will begin to see that we do have faith formation, but we don’t relate to the Bible the same way…knowing passages through the evangelists, for example, ‘Now we come to John 5,’. Even priests don’t know the following passage by simply addressing it that way, but of course are most familiar with the Gospels’…

My Baptist friend grew up in anti-Catholicism and was shocked to find out we have Scripture readings…I mean, the people hear so much, the media and the Far Left professors put so much out against the Catholic Church here…the sex abuse is 100 times greater than the 5% clergy abuse, USA Today, October 2007, but they don’t have any perspective on it, nor realize it as the fruit of secular ‘free love’.

So you have to understand what a number of us have lived with as well. A friend of mine who also has Jewish friends heard them say they can’t believe how bad the public voice is here against Catholics.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I would also like to add that I grew up in a time when the culture was very anti-Catholic.

There are so many spins put out by all sorts about what they say we believe, how superstitious Catholics are by our devotions, and so on…I live in a state that tried to ban any work of Catholic priests and nuns. Our schools and hospitals are the best, and now the culture here does not want to repeat its past.

Regarding the atheists who come on here, they are very biased and some times they come across just to use the site here to dump on people. What about secular myths that destroy the lives of many and force unnecessary taxation on people using faulty information here?

I think Catholic Answers is a good site and I hope people will begin to see that we do have faith formation, but we don’t relate to the Bible the same way…knowing passages through the evangelists, for example, ‘Now we come to John 5,’. Even priests don’t know the following passage by simply addressing it that way, but of course are most familiar with the Gospels’…

My Baptist friend grew up in anti-Catholicism and was shocked to find out we have Scripture readings…I mean, the people hear so much, the media and the Far Left professors put so much out against the Catholic Church here…the sex abuse is 100 times greater than the 5% clergy abuse, USA Today, October 2007, but they don’t have any perspective on it, nor realize it as the fruit of secular ‘free love’.

So you have to understand what a number of us have lived with as well. A friend of mine who also has Jewish friends heard them say they can’t believe how bad the public voice is here against Catholics.

KathleenGee:

I know I opened the door to this discussion, by saying I was surprised how few Protestants responded to the question of this Thread.

As a Protestant, I can say that there is much anti-Catholic rhetoric in many Protestant Churches. I came to these forums looking for answers that I could not find in the Baptist Church. I have said before that I found in the Baptist Church, there are some questions one is just not supposed to ask. As I studied the history of the transmission of Scripture, the history of Judaism, and the history of Christianity; I found that many of the Baptist doctrines were false–even when compared to “Scripture alone” (ironic, I know.)

When I found CAF, I was amazed by the knowledge of forum members and the freedom of speech–especially the freedom to ask the difficult questions. I have learned so much here.

As I have said before, CAF became a lifeline, when I needed it most. I wouldn’t say I am ready to convert to Catholicism, but I have developed a deep respect for Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

The depth of responses, on the question of this Thread, alone, has really been quite astonishing.

I think there are so many misconceptions about the Catholic faith. These forums are an invaluable tool in dispelling those misconceptions.

I am truly sorry for the damage Protestants do to the reputation of Catholicism. I really can’t imagine what you have gone through.

I have found that my defense of Catholicism does not exactly receive a warm welcome from my Protestant friends. One friend, who attends a rather extreme fundamentalist church, was so upset with me–simply because I had a Catholic Comparative New Testament in my house. So, if I received that kind of response over a Catholic Bible; I can’t imagine what Catholics actually face with many Protestants.

Respectfully,
Anna

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you, Anna!

The fundamentalists always say we don’t know Scripture…but the way we approach it is mystical and complex, one piece tying to another…

In basically understanding Scripture, I think we can agree the importance of realizing the author’s basic intent and message in the same Holy Spirit today and in times past. In conversing with Protestants, I would say that I experience the same presence of God when they share, God’s full presence is the same, but it is their understanding that I find limited, and I just share the Lord with them and His good will and be a mutual support to them.

What is important is that we be attentive to the Whole of Scripture and that comes about when we read the Bible in light of the Church and its Sacred Tradition, its entire content and unity – of the whole church, not particular emphases you can find in different parts of the Christian Catholic/orthodox world, but the entire perspective…and that this must all come from the Oral tradition of Jesus Himself to the His apostles, that then was transmitted to the bishops, pastors and disciples…

As you probably now understand, it took time to develop the Church, to inculturate it into the many races and peoples who converted to the new life of Jesus Christ. Along with these conversions were heretical groups…as time went by, people lost sense of Christ as True Man…and so the final creed did not come about in form until the Nicene Creed so many hundred of years later. It took alot of praying to the Holy Spirit in a gathering of appointed leaders and reflection with the intent that whatever forms were absorbed by a new culture, that all the prayers, thought, word and deed and symbols continued to represent and transmit the oral tradition of Jesus Christ.

But what is noted here, is that it just wasn’t the apostles, but the transmission of faith down through the church fathers and bishops they entrusted the full message to…it took many people.

The problem with Sola Scriptura is essentially it is taking away the great body of Christ’s church, and relegating the Holy Spirit to individuals and fracturing our sacred unity into constant debates and rebukes…and in all this time spent, how many are living out the Gospels? It is a most serious and grave fracture that cannot be understood darting Bible quotes back and forth.

One requires history, the evolution of liturgy, the understanding of errors of those beginning times, the reading of ancient saints and their diaries, spirituality, and of course the Sacraments and how they originated. Later, the erudite tradition came with St Thomas Aquinas and others that, drawing from the use of reason and philosophy drawn from universal thinkers such as Aristotle, in turn called his Primary Mover “God”, and thus metaphysics, the study of reality, was not just from a secular framework, but a theistic framework, that in Thomas’ mind, could prove the existence of God.

Then we have our creed and morality. And finally prayer. What is prayer, what is authentic prayer that bears good fruit? The different types…

Catholicism is very complex, but also reflective of human nature. We have a mind, a heart, a body, a soul that craves truth and beauty. We question and think and reflect, we are to live our faith in the world, so we have questions about science, education, the law, business and commerce. The Church guides us in solid theology to help us understand the Word of God in our particular times.

So I find it very hard to communicate with fundamentalists…where do I begin? And I found what worked best for me was to be in relationship with them and share Christ’s love and wait for the right opportunity to share, however a little at a time.

God bless you on your journey and you are already doing the Lord’s work by building unity and understanding.

 

[eOxy]

So, I hope someone can help me answer this question:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?

1 Corinthians 15

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, **Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?**

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Christ had to die so He would be resurrected.

By His Resurrection, he broke the power of sin and death by the single means over which the Master of Sin does have the rule. If He had destroyed sin and death by any other means, over which Him Themselves has the power, that would have no effect over humankind, since the sin and death entered the Wolrd as the consequence of human (Adam’s) will to sin. God didn’t want to annul the choice that he had already allowed to Adam, since man would not have been created in the image of God if he had no will and reason.

His resurrection (and death as the prerequisite) showed to humankind that we, too, could gain victory over death in the union with God. His resurrection set us free, since it enabled us to win freedom from sin and death in the union with God.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, only God could destroy sin…through the death of His only Son Our Lord…