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Ben_Masada
Guest
Just one more word before I leave this site: Don’t forget that Jesus was a Jew living in Israel. You might want to consider other hands involved in this stew.
Ben:
- Status
Just one more word before I leave this site: Don’t forget that Jesus was a Jew living in Israel. You might want to consider other hands involved in this stew.
Ben:
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Old_Scholar
Guest
And you are basing your information on…?
Benedictus, the Gospels were written outside Israel by non-Jews who, ill-informed, found convenient to settle Jesus celebrating his Passover on the first day of the Diaspora Passover as if it were the same as in Israel. But no, it’s different.
It all indicates that Jesus didn’t even have his chance to celebrate his Passover meal that Friday. As you know, I am sure, everything was written 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. Who would give himself the job to verify anything. Even Paul, who was aware of the truth wouldn’t bother correct anything as long as
he promoted his Christian Cause.
Take a look at Mark 14:12. “On the first day of unleavened bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the passover lamb…” This first day of unleavened bread is the 15th of Nissan, which fell on that special Sabbath. That’s when the passover lamb was sacrificed during the solemn convocation in the Temple. The 14th of Nissan
is never the first day of unleavened bread. This is the day of the Passover meal, which is only once in Israel. In the diaspora are two. So, the gospel writer set Jesus celebrating his passover meal
on the first 14th of Nissan as if Jesus was not in Israel. I can relate to that for two reasons: First, he wrote from abroad, and second, he needed to match Jesus with the three days of Jonas in the belly of the whale. You know, plagialism of the Scriptures. Things do get complicated.
Ben
What makes you think the gospels were written by non-Jews? What proof do you have of that? Do you even have a copy of the New Testment?
From your writings you are obviously Jewish…who would expect a Jew to have anything good to say about Jesus?
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SeanTom
Guest
HOLY WEEK: A30 AD
Feast of Unleavened Bread
WEDNESDAY
Paschal Lamb is slaughtered.
THURSDAY (Nissan 15)
Day of preparation for Passover
Friday begins with sundown.
Passover begins/eaten
Gethsemane, First Trial, Scouraging, Crowning
FRIDAY (Nissan 16)
Day of preparation for Sabbath
Jesus dies at 3 P.M.; entombed DAY ONE
Satirday begins with sundown.
Sabbath begins.
Jesus in the tomb; DAY TWO
SATURDAY
"Great Sabbath.
Jesus still in the tomb; DAY TWO
Sunday begins with sundown
Jesus still in the tomb; DAY THREE
Resurrection anytime after sundown.
SUNDAY
First Day of the Week
Feast of Unleavened Bread
WEDNESDAY
Paschal Lamb is slaughtered.
THURSDAY (Nissan 15)
Day of preparation for Passover
Friday begins with sundown.
Passover begins/eaten
Gethsemane, First Trial, Scouraging, Crowning
FRIDAY (Nissan 16)
Day of preparation for Sabbath
Jesus dies at 3 P.M.; entombed DAY ONE
Satirday begins with sundown.
Sabbath begins.
Jesus in the tomb; DAY TWO
SATURDAY
"Great Sabbath.
Jesus still in the tomb; DAY TWO
Sunday begins with sundown
Jesus still in the tomb; DAY THREE
Resurrection anytime after sundown.
SUNDAY
First Day of the Week
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Old_Scholar
Guest
You need to read the 23rd chapter of Leviticus in order to get the chronology right about the Passover.
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cfrancis
Guest
That jives with Christ’s own words re: His resurrection:
and with Scripture’s statement re: His resurrection:
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Old_Scholar
Guest
I believe He was raised on the third day, either right before sunset or immediately after. Although we aren’t told clearly, if He was raised just prior to sunset, then He was still in the ground for three nights and three days; unless you want to “split hairs” again and say he was a minute or two late…
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cfrancis
Guest
How can Christ be in the tomb for three full days and three full nights, yet rise on the third day?
Your position allows for three full days and nights in the tomb and a resurrection on the 4th day -
or
- 2 full days and a partial third, rising at the end of the third.
By your logic, if we can’t count the last few hours/minutes of the day as the first day, it’s ok to count the last few hours/minutes of the day as the third???
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benedictus2
Guest
This chronology is the one that jives best with the gospel accounts. The only problem is that according to Ben Masada, the Passover is eaten on the night of Nissan 14 (eve of Nissan 15) which would mean that the last supper is on Wed night not Thurs night.
Also, the 15th is not the day of Preparation for the Passover but rather the first day of the Feast itself where lamb is presented at the temple. The day of preparation is actually the 14th.
I have been thinking about it and the only way the whole chronology can make sense is if the arrest, trial actually took more than just one day which would probably be a reasonable assumption considering that the 15th is a High Sabbath for Jews so maybe they would not have dealth with him on the Thursday.
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Old_Scholar
Guest
The only chronology that will fit Scripture and facts is that He was arrested, tried, convicted, crucified and placed in the tomb on the 14th of Nisan, Wednesday that year, just as I have been saying. Nothing else will fit the facts. Every other scenario is just speculation and wistful thinking in order to fit what the church has decided. This is a case where they are wrong.
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benedictus2
Guest
Actually, I have decided to email a Rabbi here in Melbourne. He says that the Passover Meal is eaten on the 15th of Nissan regardless of whether you are in Israel or not.
So if the passover is eaten on the 15th of Nissan then Jesus died on the 15th of Nissan. Which would mean that an ordinary Sabbath (Saturday) followed the High Sabbath if we assume that the arrest and trial and death all happened within 24 hours.
But if 15 Nissan is a Thursday, then that means we have the meal on Wed night, then thye arrest and trial from early morning of Thursday till morning of Friday. That is the only chronology that will fit in with the gospel accounts. The preparation day (Friday) is just a preparation day for the ordinary Sabbath and not the preparation day for the high Sabbath on the 15th becuase that is already over.
If there is anything that is out of timing here, it is the placement of the Seder as being on Thursday night because that means it was a high sabbath on Friday which it was not because it was clearly a day of preparation.
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Old_Scholar
Guest
Then your Rabbi is not following the very clear instructions in Leviticus. The 15th is a Holy Day and only unleavened bread is eaten beginning that day, the 15th, for seven days. That is why the 15th is called the First Day of Unleavened Bread. I don’t know about your Rabbi but he isn’t following Jewish Law. I would like to know if He is an Orthodox Jew.
In 29 A.D. the 15th fell on Thursday and no work of any kind is allowed on that day because it is a Sabbath. That’s why they had to get Christ in the tomb prior to it beginning at sunset Wednesday.
You should just google it and see what the Jewish sites all say.
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benedictus2
Guest
He is not my Rabbi and regardless of whether He was Orthodox or not, I think he would know the Jewish faith and its ordinances more than you or I.
I am sure you can find Orthodox Jews in your area. Please go to a synagogue or google a synagogue and ask them the question of when the Passover Meal is eaten. As I have said before, every website I have googled have said that it is eaten on the 15th.
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Old_Scholar
Guest
The more I read of this I believe we are talking about two different meals. You may want to check with your Jewish friend.
It depends on what you are calling the “Passover Meal.” The meal Jesus and His disciples ate on the 14th day of Nisan, Wednesday night, which began at sunset, is often called the Passover Meal. We call it the Last Supper. It was at night when the actual “Passover” occurred. It is because of the Passover of the angel of death that the celebration begins the next day. But the “Passover” happened on the 14th.
We know Jesus died at 3 pm on the 14th of Nisan, which is precisely the time the Passover Lambs are slain. That was according to the Scriptures. It is this Passover Lamb that is eaten with unleavened bread on the 15th of Nisan, Thursday in this case, which is a Sabbath, a Holy Day and is the First Day of Unleavened Bread. Then for seven days they must eat unleavened bread and not have any yeast at all in their homes. Then the seventh day of Unleavened Bread is again a special Holy Day, a Sabbath. This Sabbath can fall on any day according to the calendar when it happens. It can even fall on the weekly Sabbath. The year most scholars believe Christ died, 29 A.D., it fell on Thursday.
Perhaps your friend is saying the Passover Lamb is eaten on the First Day of Unleavened Bread which is the 15th of Nisan as the Scriptures say.
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benedictus2
Guest
I am not so sure that He died on the 14th. All we know is that the day He died was a preparation day. It could be the preparation day for the 15th or it could simply be the preparation day for the ordinary Sabbath.
Here is something I found from this website
http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/passover/faq/when-is-passover.html
In the Hebrew Bible, Shemot 12:18 or Exodus 12:18 states when Passover is to be commemorated: “In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even”. The word “Even” means “Evening” and since the Jewish day begins either at sunset or at nightfall, depending on the authoritative rabbinical opinion one follows,** this means that “Even” or “Evening” means either “at sunset” or “at nightfall” and hence is the start of the 15th day of the first month.** “One and twentieth” means the twenty-first day of the first month, and “at even” means up to and including the time when either sunset or nightfall occurs, depending on the authoritative rabbinical opinion one follows. Later on in time, names were given to the Hebrew months with the first Hebrew month being named Nissan or Nisan. Therefore, in the Hebrew/Jewish calendar, Passover is a seven-day festival that is always commemorated and celebrated from the 15th day of Nissan or Nisan up to and including the 21st day of Nissan or Nisan. These dates are fixed in the Hebrew/Jewish calendar. This was the original length of days for the Passover festival and was followed by the Jewish people who lived in Israel. However, for Jews living outside Israel, Passover was commemorated and celebrated for eight days from about the time just before the start of the Common Era onward. Why is that?
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benedictus2
Guest
This site calculates the Hebrew and Christian Calendars.
http://www.cgsf.org/dbeattie/calendar/?roman=30
The year 29 AD - 14th Nissan is on Saturday, 15 Nissan is on Sunday
The year 30 AD - 14 Nissan is Wed, 15 Nissan is Thursday
Actually he said the Passover Meal, the Seder. There can only be one Passover meal although he did say that jews outside of Israel have two Passover meals but I think the second one is on a different month.
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cfrancis
Guest
Except the “rising on the third day” does not fit your position.
Remember, your position is that Christ had to spend 3 full days and three full nights in the tomb to make good His sign. You also state there would be no parts of days in those full days.
To say He must be in the tomb three full days and three full nights is mutually exclusive of saying He rose on the third day.
You’ve not reconciled this contradiction in your position.
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moondweller
Guest
This is true according to what we read in John’s Gospel account. Only John gives us a step by step account of what happened.
Jesus said He would be in the tomb for three nights. This could not be the case if He was crucified on Friday.
(1) It was on the 10th of Nisan that the lambs would be taken out and examined for four days to make sure they were without spot or blemish. On the 10th of Nisan Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a colt and presented Himself to Israel. We call it Palm Sunday.
(2) On the 14th of Nisan the lambs were slain for the Passover meal.
The 14th of Nisan began sunset Wednesday and ended sunset Thursday.a. The “Last Supper” was not the Passover meal. It was simply the “last supper” they had together. The upper room was in preparation for the Passover, but they never ate it. We read in Jn. 13:27-29 that when Judas left, the disciples thought he was going to purchase something yet needed for the feast. This he would not, even could not, do if they were eating the Passover meal. Nothing in Jerusalem would have been open.
b. We also know that the “Last Supper” was not the Passover meal because in Jn. 18:28 Jesus’ accusers would not enter the Roman Praetorium in fear of being defiled and therefore not be allowed to eat the Passover that was yet to be eaten.(3) The 14th of Nisan was the “day of preparation for the Passover” (see Jn. 19:14). It was the day the lambs were slain for the Passover meal that was to be eaten later at twilight (Lev. 23:5).
Early on the morning of the 14th of Nisan Jesus was being tried before Pilate; by 9:00 a.m. He was on the cross; and by 3:00 p.m He was dead. Jesus, God’s unblemished Lamb, was appropriately slain on the “day of preparation.” The very day the lambs were traditionally slain for the Passover meal.
(4) In John 19:31 the bodies were requested to be removed from the crosses because it was “the day of preparation” and they wanted them down before the Sabbath. John notes that the Sabbath referred to was a “high day.”
(5) The 15th of Nisan, which began Thursday at sunset and lasted until Friday at sunset, would have been the first day of the “Feast of Unleavened Bread,” which was a “sabbath day,” a day of no work (Lev. 23:6-8). This was the anticipated "high Sabbath John was referring to in Jn. 19:31.
(6) The seventh day sabbath began Friday at sunset and lasted until Saturday sunset, and is never referred to as a “high day.”
That year there were two, back to back, sabbaths. The first day of the “Feast of Unleavened Bread” (Thursday sunset to Friday sunset), and then the regular, weekly “seventh day” sabbath (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset).
(7) Jesus rose from the dead Sunday morning. He was in the tomb Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night: three nights, just as He said. If he would have been crucified on Friday, as is traditionally taught, He would have been in the tomb only two nights. Jesus, by His bodily resurrection, fulfilled of the “first fruits” accepted before the Lord on the first day after the sabbath (Lev. 23:10-11; 1 Cor. 15:20-23).
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Ben_Masada
Guest
I am basing my information on my knowledge of Jewish Law. And what makes me be certain that the Gospels were written by non-Jews are two factors: First, the lack of knowledge of the writers who exhibit poor handling of Jewish laws of the First Century. And second, the fact that the Apostles of Jesus were Nazarenes, and none of the writings of the Nazarenes
was approved into the Canon of the NT by the Fathers of the Church in 327 CE, due to their controversial character vis-a-vis the writings of Paul.
I have three different copies of the NT: One in Hebrew, one from the KJV and a Catholic one from the New American version of the Bible.
Yes, I am Jewish. And mind you, one thing is to say something good about Jesus; another quite different is to say what is correct
about him.
Ben:
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Robbinson
Guest
There is no serious/respected scholarship which denies that the apostles were jews or that the gospels were written by jews. Much can be said and debated about the consistency of the teachings of the gospels with Jewish thinking of the day - though even some of the most prominent Jewish anti-missionaries acknowledge the consistency of Jesus’ teaching with the school of Hillel.
I am basing my information on my knowledge of Jewish Law. And what makes me be certain that the Gospels were written by non-Jews are two factors: First, the lack of knowledge of the writers who exhibit poor handling of Jewish laws of the First Century. And second, the fact that the Apostles of Jesus were Nazarenes, and none of the writings of the Nazarenes
was approved into the Canon of the NT by the Fathers of the Church in 327 CE, due to their controversial character vis-a-vis the writings of Paul.
I have three different copies of the NT: One in Hebrew, one from the KJV and a Catholic one from the New American version of the Bible.
Yes, I am Jewish. And mind you, one thing is to say something good about Jesus; another quite different is to say what is correct
about him.
Ben:
The septuagent was written by Jews for Jews hundreds of years before Christ.
As you well know (if you are Jewish - so am I - though I believe in Yeshua as the Messiah (making me either a Jewish Christian/Messianic Jew or Christian - I don’t focus on the label), there is not now, nor was there at the time of Christ, a single Jewish voice. The Talmud itself is a great testament to the varous voices and schools of thought that have existed in Judaism through the ages.
Blessings,
Brian
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Ben_Masada
Guest
I do not deny that the Apostles were Jews. They were all Jews. But the writers of the NT were not. To believe so, you will be only raising contradictions in the NT.
The first one ever to preach about Jesus as Christ was Paul, when he founded Christianity in the City of Antioch. (Acts 11:26) This was about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. Then, the Gospels were written from 75 to 100 CE.
Even the Catholic version of the New American Bible recognizes the fact that it was a custom of the time to write in the name of eyewitnesses and famous persons in order to germinate interest to their writings.
And for the Letters of Peter, the Bishops who sponsored that version of the New American Bible declare that those Letters were written by unknown authors. Then, you don’t have to copy the opinions of these so-called respectful Scholars you claim. You have only to focus when reading their writings.
Now, regarding your being Jewish, you are not sir. Having left Judaism, you have left Jewishness. It’s no longer only what makes a Jew, to be born of a Jewish mother. One of the sons of Isaac with Rebeca was born a Gentile. But you still can reconsider your decision and return to the faith of Jesus, which was Judaism.
Ben:
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