Cruelty to animals and Church leadership

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Can you show us where or when the church says this? It’s part of Thomist philosophy but that doesn’t mean it’s doctrine.

You seem genuinely offended and upset that people could think animals could have immortal souls. Do you hate animals, or are you afraid that believing in animal souls will send a person to hell?

Again, I cannot deny what I see with my own eyes. If the Church told me there was no such thing as the color yellow, and I’m looking at mustard, who should I believe?
They don’t have immortal souls. Its got nothing to do with what I think.

CCC 367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people “wholly”, with “spirit and soul and body” kept sound and blameless at the Lord’s coming. The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. “Spirit” signifies that** from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.**
 
They don’t have immortal souls. Its got nothing to do with what I think.

CCC 367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people “wholly”, with “spirit and soul and body” kept sound and blameless at the Lord’s coming. The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. “Spirit” signifies that** from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.**
While I agree that animals do not have immortal souls, this quote merely says that humans DO have a supernatural end, not that ONLY humans do, so I’m not sure it will satisfy the person you are responding to.
 
While I agree that animals do not have immortal souls, this quote merely says that humans DO have a supernatural end, not that ONLY humans do, so I’m not sure it will satisfy the person you are responding to.
It states “from creation” humans have a supernatural end. It does not say from creation humans and animals have a supernatural end.
 
The Church teaches only humans have a supernatural end. That means animals do NOT have a supernatural end.
That also means when your pet dog dies it does NOT go to Heaven or Hell because it does NOT have an immortal soul. It simply ceases to exist.

Bear in mind this is a completely separate issue as to whether at the end of time in Heaven there will be animals. Who knows? Only God.
No, that is not the only way to look at it. I will leave it to God to decide. Nothing God creates disappears. God can decide to give new bodies to animals as He will give us.
 
Nabooru;9522325:
You were just dreaming or imagining!! You did not see your dead dog!
Please, why is it so important for you to insist that everyone should agree with you on this issue? No one is insisting that you should agree with us. There are priests who disagree with you and the Church does not say what we believe is a contravention of doctrine.
 
My guess would be they’re presently focusing all their attention and trying to keep humans from needlessly killing each other.
Good riposte, but I’m not sure about that. I admire the universal church’s leadership (in modern times) in peace and reconciliation. But there is no need, I know, for me to list all the other things Bishops get involved in to keep themselves busy. we all know of examples of far less important things.
 
No, that is not the only way to look at it. I will leave it to God to decide. Nothing God creates disappears. God can decide to give new bodies to animals as He will give us.
You are confusing two separate issues.
I am not saying there may not be animals in Heaven at the end of time. God can create whatever he wants.
What I am saying is that animals do not have immortal souls and so do not go to Hell or Heaven when they die. When they die their souls cease to exist.
 
thistle;9522569:
Please, why is it so important for you to insist that everyone should agree with you on this issue? No one is insisting that you should agree with us. There are priests who disagree with you and the Church does not say what we believe is a contravention of doctrine.
The second person of the Holy Trinity became incarnate as a human person. God lowered Himself, He condescended, to take on human flesh and become one of us. Humans are both spiritual and material beings, made a little lower than the angels. He became one of us so that He could raise us, make us live supernatural lives, live above our material nature and become holy, like He is holy. A squirrel does not do this. A squirrels perfection is climing trees and eating nuts and breeding.

Jesus ascended into heaven in His human body resurrected from the dead, a body that ate and drank, spoke, was touched and felt.

He did not take on dog nature, goldfish nature, spider nature, or worm nature, the nature of an amoeba, or plant nature, die and rise and ascend to heaven. He did not become a parakeet or a potato. Jesus is the God-man.

Humans are capable of living above their natures, although it is difficult. A pig is not. A pig will root for acorns to fill his belly. A human may fast for a long period for spiritual reasons. A lion will hunt prey in packs and kill antelope or zebras. You can not tell a lion to not hunt and kill prey. It is the animal’s nature. An male elk will smash his brains out for the right to have sex with all the females in the neighborhood. Male gorillas, sheep, goats, walrus, etc. behave similarly. Humans can not only not brutilize rivals, but be celibate and live above their natures.

We can live spiritual lives with our souls in communion with God in this life, and we must.

As in marriage where males and females are made one flesh, heaven is the soul joined to divinity, made one in spirit with God. Our natures are joined eternally as Jesus is alive forever in His human body ascended to heaven, the firstborn of the dead.

Cockroaches can not participate in the divine nature and neither can cockerspaniels.

Saint Peter writes that we will participate in the divine nature. We become one with God by sharing His nature.

The nature of a being is defined by what the being does, is capable of doing. I can not fly or pull worms out of the ground for food, because I do not have bird nature. I can not swim through the sea and breathe water, because I do not have fish nature. I lack gills, scales, a tail and feathers. I do not have the ability, power, to do the things cats, bats, frogs do.

When human nature is divinized by the power and love of God that is heaven. It does not happen to wild or domestic animals.

Human beings are made to long for this union with God which is heaven. They can not be fully happy until they find it. They know instinctively something is missing in our earthly existance. They seek the glory of heaven by writing hymns and symphanies, in art and architecture. They explore the universe and study its smallness and immensity and are awed by its beauty.

Dogs are perfectly happy being dogs, howling at the moon, chasing cats and the mailman, scratching for fleas, gnawing bones, sniffing garbage cans and one another’s body parts. For them life is just fine as it is.
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For humans something is missing. Humans seek something above themselves and although we sometimes look in the wrong places to fill what is empty in us, we will not be content until it is found. That thing we seek is heaven, God.
 
severus68;9523936:
He did not take on dog nature, goldfish nature, spider nature, or worm nature, the nature of an amoeba, or plant nature, die and rise and ascend to heaven. He did not become a parakeet or a potato. Jesus is the God-man.

.
Jesus was (or is) related by descent through hs human mother to dogs (last common ancestor about 60 million years ago), and a similar distance back to his last common ancestor with parakeets. His relationship with amoeba and worms and plants would be much further back… I have often wondered why the implications of God becoming man for the whole of life have not been more widely explored (yes I have read Fr de Chardin).
 
You are confusing two separate issues.
I am not saying there may not be animals in Heaven at the end of time. God can create whatever he wants.
What I am saying is that animals do not have immortal souls and so do not go to Hell or Heaven when they die. When they die their souls cease to exist.
Actually I am not. You are speaking of God creating new animals, I am referring to existing animals. With respect to Thomas Aquinas, I do not understand how he could have placed animals and plants into the same category.
 
severus68;9523936:
The second person of the Holy Trinity became incarnate as a human person. God lowered Himself, He condescended, to take on human flesh and become one of us. Humans are both spiritual and material beings, made a little lower than the angels. He became one of us so that He could raise us, make us live supernatural lives, live above our material nature and become holy, like He is holy. A squirrel does not do this. A squirrels perfection is climing trees and eating nuts and breeding.

Jesus ascended into heaven in His human body resurrected from the dead, a body that ate and drank, spoke, was touched and felt.

He did not take on dog nature, goldfish nature, spider nature, or worm nature, the nature of an amoeba, or plant nature, die and rise and ascend to heaven. He did not become a parakeet or a potato. Jesus is the God-man.

Humans are capable of living above their natures, although it is difficult. A pig is not. A pig will root for acorns to fill his belly. A human may fast for a long period for spiritual reasons. A lion will hunt prey in packs and kill antelope or zebras. You can not tell a lion to not hunt and kill prey. It is the animal’s nature. An male elk will smash his brains out for the right to have sex with all the females in the neighborhood. Male gorillas, sheep, goats, walrus, etc. behave similarly. Humans can not only not brutilize rivals, but be celibate and live above their natures.

We can live spiritual lives with our souls in communion with God in this life, and we must.

As in marriage where males and females are made one flesh, heaven is the soul joined to divinity, made one in spirit with God. Our natures are joined eternally as Jesus is alive forever in His human body ascended to heaven, the firstborn of the dead.

Cockroaches can not participate in the divine nature and neither can cockerspaniels.

Saint Peter writes that we will participate in the divine nature. We become one with God by sharing His nature.

The nature of a being is defined by what the being does, is capable of doing. I can not fly or pull worms out of the ground for food, because I do not have bird nature. I can not swim through the sea and breathe water, because I do not have fish nature. I lack gills, scales, a tail and feathers. I do not have the ability, power, to do the things cats, bats, frogs do.

When human nature is divinized by the power and love of God that is heaven. It does not happen to wild or domestic animals.

Human beings are made to long for this union with God which is heaven. They can not be fully happy until they find it. They know instinctively something is missing in our earthly existance. They seek the glory of heaven by writing hymns and symphanies, in art and architecture. They explore the universe and study its smallness and immensity and are awed by its beauty.

Dogs are perfectly happy being dogs, howling at the moon, chasing cats and the mailman, scratching for fleas, gnawing bones, sniffing garbage cans and one another’s body parts. For them life is just fine as it is.
.
For humans something is missing. Humans seek something above themselves and although we sometimes look in the wrong places to fill what is empty in us, we will not be content until it is found. That thing we seek is heaven, God.
My dogs and I are rather offended at what you said about dogs, lol. Nevertheless, dogs are interested in a lot more than what you said like staying with and loving their humans.

I just have to say further that Jesus did not come for animals as animals cannot sin and do not ned salvation.
 
grandfather;9524014:
Jesus was (or is) related by descent through hs human mother to dogs (last common ancestor about 60 million years ago), and a similar distance back to his last common ancestor with parakeets. His relationship with amoeba and worms and plants would be much further back… I have often wondered why the implications of God becoming man for the whole of life have not been more widely explored (yes I have read Fr de Chardin).
I love my animals but if you are not being facetious, I disagree strongly and I would do so even if I were not Christians. I do not think my animals would want to human or to be descendents of humans.
 
Actually I am not. You are speaking of God creating new animals, I am referring to existing animals. With respect to Thomas Aquinas, I do not understand how he could have placed animals and plants into the same category.
Animals do not have immortal souls. They do not go to Hell or Heaven. When they die their souls cease to exist.
I recommend a good book called Theology For Beginners by F.J. Sheed. You can get an good explanation there.
 
Hokomai;9524045:
I love my animals but if you are not being facetious, I disagree strongly and I would do so even if I were not Christians. I do not think my animals would want to human or to be descendents of humans.
Originally Posted by grandfather
Jesus was (or is) related by descent through hs human mother to dogs (last common ancestor about 60 million years ago), and a similar distance back to his last common ancestor with parakeets. His relationship with amoeba and worms and plants would be much further back… I have often wondered why the implications of God becoming man for the whole of life have not been more widely explored (yes I have read Fr de Chardin).

I did not write that. It is one of the most absurd statments I have ever seen on the forums. There is no point responding.
 
thistle;9522569:
Please, why is it so important for you to insist that everyone should agree with you on this issue? No one is insisting that you should agree with us. There are priests who disagree with you and the Church does not say what we believe is a contravention of doctrine.
Why are you guys insisting that I agree with the opposite? You behave as though it’s a matter of salvation. I personally find it insulting to have my direct experience passed of as “imagining” because it supposedly contradicts some church doctrine that even then I feel is being exaggerated by you.

Why is it so important to you that I be “corrected”?
 
People can have affection for animals. They can even love their rose bushes and flower gardens. They like being around them. They have relationships with their pet collies and bulldogs.

We also speak about having a marital relationship between spouses. You don’t want to marry your cat, but with the way marriage is being redefined in our new pagan society, who knows.

Jesus speaks in metaphors or analogies whenever He tells us about the heavenly kingdom. He tells us what it is like using terms that we understand here, because we have not experienced there. It is like a farmer who sowed seeds, or a housewife who lost a coin.

He speaks about heaven as like a wedding banquet. When Jesus speaks of Himself He calls Himself the bridegroom. His Church is His bride. He is coming for His bride. He says He has gone to prepare a place for us and will come back to take us there so that where He is we (His bride) can also be.

He says, from the beginning God made them male and female. It is for this reason that a man leaves his father and mother (Jesus left heaven) to join himself to his wife (to cleave unto his wife), and the two shall become one flesh.

The great physical delight the bride and groom take in one another is LIKE UNTO the spiritual delight Jesus takes in being united to His bride spiritually in heaven. The two become one taking delight in one another.

Beings that have different natures can not marry, become one. To marry simply means to be joined together. Jesus took on human nature. He raises us to divine nature.

Heaven is not simply being in a place. Here in this place we have cats, dogs, rabbits, trees, vegetables, minerals, water, humans and a variety of thousands of things and species of life.

A man can have relationships with his pets, the team of horses that pulls his wagon or plow every day. The cow he milks recognizes him. We can feed the squirrels in the park all here in this place.

We can not marry them. We have different natures. The relationship between God and His Church is like the relationship of spouses.

In heaven we are not God’s pets that He enjoys spending time with, playing fetch the stick with, being amused by, petting on the head and taking care of. In heaven we share with God an intimacy of life whose only earthly analogy is that of husband and wife.

I suppose that unless someone has experienced a successful loving marriage then this analogy god gives us can not help understand heaven. In any case, you can be in the same place as your dog, but you can’t marry it.
 
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