Cruelty to animals and Church leadership

[bigfootbob]

…The nature of a being is defined by what the being does, is capable of doing. I can not fly or** pull worms out of the ground for food, **because I do not have bird nature. I can not swim through the sea and breathe water, because I do not have fish nature. I lack gills, scales, a tail and feathers. I do not have the ability, power, to do the things cats, bats, frogs do…

What’s stopping you?

Humans have immortal souls and are made for communion with God. Animals do not. To say that they do is essentially putting them on the same level of importance as humans, which is very wrong.

 

[severus68]

Animals do not have immortal souls. They do not go to Hell or Heaven. When they die their souls cease to exist.
I recommend a good book called Theology For Beginners by F.J. Sheed. You can get an good explanation there.

Thank you but I will pass. I could well recommend books and articles which say the opposite or say we do not know for sure but I will refrain from doing so as I do not need to persuade anyone.

 

[severus68]

…I don’t want to marry my dog.

I missed that part.

 

[severus68]

People can have affection for animals. They can even love their rose bushes and flower gardens. They like being around them. They have relationships with their pet collies and bulldogs.

We also speak about having a marital relationship between spouses. You don’t want to marry your cat, but with the way marriage is being redefined in our new pagan society, who knows.

Jesus speaks in metaphors or analogies whenever He tells us about the heavenly kingdom. He tells us what it is like using terms that we understand here, because we have not experienced there. It is like a farmer who sowed seeds, or a housewife who lost a coin.

He speaks about heaven as like a wedding banquet. When Jesus speaks of Himself He calls Himself the bridegroom. His Church is His bride. He is coming for His bride. He says He has gone to prepare a place for us and will come back to take us there so that where He is we (His bride) can also be.

He says, from the beginning God made them male and female. It is for this reason that a man leaves his father and mother (Jesus left heaven) to join himself to his wife (to cleave unto his wife), and the two shall become one flesh.

The great physical delight the bride and groom take in one another is LIKE UNTO the spiritual delight Jesus takes in being united to His bride spiritually in heaven. The two become one taking delight in one another.

Beings that have different natures can not marry, become one. To marry simply means to be joined together. Jesus took on human nature. He raises us to divine nature.

Heaven is not simply being in a place. Here in this place we have cats, dogs, rabbits, trees, vegetables, minerals, water, humans and a variety of thousands of things and species of life.

A man can have relationships with his pets, the team of horses that pulls his wagon or plow every day. The cow he milks recognizes him. We can feed the squirrels in the park all here in this place.

We can not marry them. We have different natures. The relationship between God and His Church is like the relationship of spouses.

In heaven we are not God’s pets that He enjoys spending time with, playing fetch the stick with, being amused by, petting on the head and taking care of. In heaven we share with God an intimacy of life whose only earthly analogy is that of husband and wife.

I suppose that unless someone has experienced a successful loving marriage then this analogy god gives us can not help understand heaven. In any case, you can be in the same place as your dog, but you can’t marry it.

Bold mine. We may have given glimpses of heaven but no one really knows what heaven is. I do not understand your reasoning. As someone else said, we do not want to marry our pets or any animal. The relationship of Christ to his Church is described as that of a bridegroom to his bride but heaven is not about individuals being married to God as we have marriage on this earth.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Good riposte, but I’m not sure about that. I admire the universal church’s leadership (in modern times) in peace and reconciliation. But there is no need, I know, for me to list all the other things Bishops get involved in to keep themselves busy. we all know of examples of far less important things.

True. I’m sure there are many serious and silly things that occupy a Bishops time but can’t the same be said for all of us? We should all strive to do the best we can. Making sure our priorities are in order is a daily task which if not done correctly could wind up going from a constructive use of our time to a silly use of our time.

Like Christ said its a straight path and a narrow gate which leads to life. We should all pray for prudence.

 

[grandfather]

Bold mine. We may have given glimpses of heaven but no one really knows what heaven is. I do not understand your reasoning. As someone else said, we do not want to marry our pets or any animal. The relationship of Christ to his Church is described as that of a bridegroom to his bride but heaven is not about individuals being married to God as we have marriage on this earth.

Why do you suppose Jesus called Himself the bridegroom?

The reasoning is very simple. The word marry means to make two into one. Two pieces of iron can be welded together into one. Two pieces of rope can be married, tied together to make one. Two pieces of wood can be joined together.

God and the human soul are made one. That is what heaven is. We can not undersatand what marriage is until we experience it, but we can have some idea of what it is. The same is true of the notion that human souls are made one with the divine essence.

Jesus uses the understanding of human marriage as analagous to Him being joined to His beloved, the Church. If He there was no comparison between the two, if there was nothing to be understood in the comparison He made, He would not have made it.

 

[thistle]

Thank you but I will pass. I could well recommend books and articles which say the opposite or say we do not know for sure but I will refrain from doing so as I do not need to persuade anyone.

Please recommend to me books or articles which say the opposite or are you just saying there are such books and articles.

 

[Nabooru]

Please recommend to me books or articles which say the opposite or are you just saying there are such books and articles.

Look up Jack Wintz. Also John Dear.

Besides, this still doesn’t negate that fact, that has been pointed out, that you’re putting words in the church’s mouth. The church has no official statement on whether or not animals will be in heaven or have souls. Some theologians, including Thomas Aquinas, did not think so, but just because it has been written by a Father does not make it church doctrine. For example, Aquinas also wrote that the blessed in heaven will take much joy in the torment of those in hell.

I don’t think any Pope has spoken definitively on the matter, and at any rate the catechism doesn’t. It doesn’t say yes or no, but leaves it an open-ended question. Had the idea that people actually believe they will see their pets and earthly animals in heaven been offensive, it would have been affirmed therein.

 

[thistle]

Look up Jack Wintz. Also John Dear.

Besides, this still doesn’t negate that fact, that has been pointed out, that you’re putting words in the church’s mouth. The church has no official statement on whether or not animals will be in heaven or have souls. Some theologians, including Thomas Aquinas, did not think so, but just because it has been written by a Father does not make it church doctrine. For example, Aquinas also wrote that the blessed in heaven will take much joy in the torment of those in hell.

I don’t think any Pope has spoken definitively on the matter, and at any rate the catechism doesn’t. It doesn’t say yes or no, but leaves it an open-ended question. Had the idea that people actually believe they will see their pets and earthly animals in heaven been offensive, it would have been affirmed therein.

Its not unclear to me what the Church teaches.
From creation humans are ordered to a supernatural end. That means animals are not.
Why is that pet lovers are trying to get their dogs and cats into Heaven. Do they think they are not complete without them and that being forever with God is not enough?

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)



http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQbJpatNIQLwFUxbbkSriWRyT8mnbtHnLX6N5Gy-2IQz_uilUnRLg

 

[grandfather]

Its not unclear to me what the Church teaches.
From creation humans are ordered to a supernatural end. That means animals are not.
Why is that pet lovers are trying to get their dogs and cats into Heaven. Do they think they are not complete without them and that being forever with God is not enough?

Thistle,

This is just a personal observation. It is nothing more. The people that I have encountered who are insistent on poochie being with them in heaven, in general, have no children, for one reason or another. Fido is their family. They fawn and fuss over petsy so cute and adorable. The pet fills the void of flesh and blood, the loneliness that comes from a lack of children and family.

I got a call today out of nowhere from someone I had not seen in fortyfive years. He said he can not retire, because he has thirty mouths to feed. They are five dogs and twentyfive sheep. I asked if he and his wife had children. No, they decided they were enjoying life too much.

We need to be needed.

I was at a wedding celebration yesterday of a family that raised seven sons. They had two dogs that were kept in a pen so they did not jump all over the guests and do doggy things like sniff crotches. The dogs led perfectly happy dog’s lives on all other days of the year. Wedding celebration was for people. They were treated as pets, not family members. They got to chase rabbits and squrrels and keep the deer out of the garden on every other day of the year.

Most of us are concerned about mom, dad, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, friend being in heaven and pray for that end. Those who are disconnected from that human familial bond, in some way and for whatever reason attach themselves to fluffy and they don’t see why fluffy can not enjoy the beatific vision.

It is part of the brokenness of humanity…

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Thistle,

This is just a personal observation. It is nothing more. The people that I have encountered who are insistent on poochie being with them in heaven, in general, have no children, for one reason or another. Fido is their family. They fawn and fuss over petsy so cute and adorable. The pet fills the void of flesh and blood, the loneliness that comes from a lack of children and family.

I got a call today out of nowhere from someone I had not seen in fortyfive years. He said he can not retire, because he has thirty mouths to feed. They are five dogs and twentyfive sheep. I asked if he and his wife had children. No, they decided they were enjoying life too much.

We need to be needed.

I was at a wedding celebration yesterday of a family that raised seven sons. They had two dogs that were kept in a pen so they did not jump all over the guests and do doggy things like sniff crotches. The dogs led perfectly happy dog’s lives on all other days of the year. Wedding celebration was for people. They were treated as pets, not family members. They got to chase rabbits and squrrels and keep the deer out of the garden on every other day of the year.

Most of us are concerned about mom, dad, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, friend being in heaven and pray for that end. Those who are disconnected from that human familial bond, in some way and for whatever reason attach themselves to fluffy and they don’t see why fluffy can not enjoy the beatific vision.

It is part of the brokenness of humanity…

It’s sad because there are some people like this, but not all single people with pets are this way. I for one am single and love my dog, but truly do not care whether or not she makes it to heaven. Although I did name her Grace so…

 

[grandfather]

It’s sad because there are some people like this, but not all single people with pets are this way. I for one am single and love my dog, but truly do not care whether or not she makes it to heaven. Although I did name her Grace so…

I always liked the story of Saint Jerome who had a pet lion. Jerome lived in the boonies and the lion attached himself to Jerome and followed him around. Imagine what it was like living out in the sticks the first time a lion shows up and wants to be your friend. I think it was Saint Jon Bosco who had a big dog show up to accompany him when enemies were plotting to kill him, but it might have been Louis DiMontfort.

 

[Hokomai]

severus68;9524070:

Originally Posted by grandfather
Jesus was (or is) related by descent through hs human mother to dogs (last common ancestor about 60 million years ago), and a similar distance back to his last common ancestor with parakeets. His relationship with amoeba and worms and plants would be much further back… I have often wondered why the implications of God becoming man for the whole of life have not been more widely explored (yes I have read Fr de Chardin).

I did not write that. It is one of the most absurd statements I have ever seen on the forums. There is no point responding.

Grandfather, you are right it was I who posted that. But the statement, with respect, is not absurd. it is true. humans share our DNA with all living things. DNA is passed on only by descent. Therefore all humans, including Jesus, are related by descent to every other living thing. There is no escaping this fact, which is as true as anything observable.

 

[Hokomai]

Hokomai;9524045:

I love my animals but if you are not being facetious, I disagree strongly and I would do so even if I were not Christians. I do not think my animals would want to human or to be descendents of humans.

You may have misunderstood my point. I was saying that Jesus, invertabrates, plants, birds and mammals share a common descent (in his case through his human mother, at least). There is no dispute about this in science. I is a fact. It is why humans share DNz with all other living things. So far no other species has descended from modern humans, although modern humans are the descendant of other human species.

 

[JaneGrey]

Thistle,

This is just a personal observation. It is nothing more. The people that I have encountered who are insistent on poochie being with them in heaven, in general, have no children, for one reason or another. Fido is their family. They fawn and fuss over petsy so cute and adorable. The pet fills the void of flesh and blood, the loneliness that comes from a lack of children and family.

I got a call today out of nowhere from someone I had not seen in fortyfive years. He said he can not retire, because he has thirty mouths to feed. They are five dogs and twentyfive sheep. I asked if he and his wife had children. No, they decided they were enjoying life too much.

We need to be needed.

I was at a wedding celebration yesterday of a family that raised seven sons. They had two dogs that were kept in a pen so they did not jump all over the guests and do doggy things like sniff crotches. The dogs led perfectly happy dog’s lives on all other days of the year. Wedding celebration was for people. They were treated as pets, not family members. They got to chase rabbits and squrrels and keep the deer out of the garden on every other day of the year.

Most of us are concerned about mom, dad, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, friend being in heaven and pray for that end. Those who are disconnected from that human familial bond, in some way and for whatever reason attach themselves to fluffy and they don’t see why fluffy can not enjoy the beatific vision.

It is part of the brokenness of humanity…

I personally would not presume to know the true motivations of other individuals. Honestly. you make a rather unfair and condescending assumption about the characters of people who love their pets. Don’t you know that some atheists like to lump those who believe in an intelligent creator as being overly emotional, ‘broken’ individuals who need to believe in ‘fairy tales’ in order to deal with life? Perhaps you did not mean it this way, but it does seem awfully similar.

Many people believe that there is a strong chance that animals will be in heaven. Not all of us are single, childless and miserable, or even eccentric. Many dont talk about it, out of the fear that it would evoke responses similar to yours.

Of course people who have pets are attached to them. Attachment to pets does not exclude the ability to be attached to one’s own family, for goodness sake. For every ‘crazy’ childless couple you come across who seem overly fond of their pets, there are plenty of other couples with grown children, finding great enjoyment in taking care of God’s creatures in their retirement. They might have something to say about your implication that those who are very fond of their pets do not care as much about their human family members going to heaven.

Frankly it is uncharitable to judge one’s character as far you have done. Hoping and believing that one’s pets will go to the heaven is hardly the equivalent of the kind of craziness that leads to people blowing their savings on diamond collars for their animals etc.

 

[severus68]

Please recommend to me books or articles which say the opposite or are you just saying there are such books and articles.

I could but I certainly have no interest in giving you the link since you obviously get huffy when someone disagrees with you and I do not really need to prove anything to you. If you did not respond in this manner and was really interested, I would have. Life is too short for this.

 

[severus68]

Thistle,

This is just a personal observation. It is nothing more. The people that I have encountered who are insistent on poochie being with them in heaven, in general, have no children, for one reason or another. Fido is their family. They fawn and fuss over petsy so cute and adorable. The pet fills the void of flesh and blood, the loneliness that comes from a lack of children and family.

I got a call today out of nowhere from someone I had not seen in fortyfive years. He said he can not retire, because he has thirty mouths to feed. They are five dogs and twentyfive sheep. I asked if he and his wife had children. No, they decided they were enjoying life too much.

We need to be needed.

I was at a wedding celebration yesterday of a family that raised seven sons. They had two dogs that were kept in a pen so they did not jump all over the guests and do doggy things like sniff crotches. The dogs led perfectly happy dog’s lives on all other days of the year. Wedding celebration was for people. They were treated as pets, not family members. They got to chase rabbits and squrrels and keep the deer out of the garden on every other day of the year.

Most of us are concerned about mom, dad, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, friend being in heaven and pray for that end. Those who are disconnected from that human familial bond, in some way and for whatever reason attach themselves to fluffy and they don’t see why fluffy can not enjoy the beatific vision.

It is part of the brokenness of humanity…

You must have had very limited experience with people who care for animals then.I find this post rather sad. Some people get so offended and angry with people caring for animals that they come out with their own home grown brand of psychology. BTW people need to be saved, animals do not.

 

[severus68]

severus68;9524070:

You may have misunderstood my point. I was saying that Jesus, invertabrates, plants, birds and mammals share a common descent (in his case through his human mother, at least). There is no dispute about this in science. I is a fact. It is why humans share DNz with all other living things. So far no other species has descended from modern humans, although modern humans are the descendant of other human species.

Oh, ok, sorry. I agree we share DNA with other species and we have descended from primitive men.

 

[severus68]

I personally would not presume to know the true motivations of other individuals. Honestly. you make a rather unfair and condescending assumption about the characters of people who love their pets. Don’t you know that some atheists like to lump those who believe in an intelligent creator as being overly emotional, ‘broken’ individuals who need to believe in ‘fairy tales’ in order to deal with life? Perhaps you did not mean it this way, but it does seem awfully similar.

Many people believe that there is a strong chance that animals will be in heaven. Not all of us are single, childless and miserable, or even eccentric. Many dont talk about it, out of the fear that it would evoke responses similar to yours.

Of course people who have pets are attached to them. Attachment to pets does not exclude the ability to be attached to one’s own family, for goodness sake. For every ‘crazy’ childless couple you come across who seem overly fond of their pets, there are plenty of other couples with grown children, finding great enjoyment in taking care of God’s creatures in their retirement. They might have something to say about your implication that those who are very fond of their pets do not care as much about their human family members going to heaven.

Frankly it is uncharitable to judge one’s character as far you have done. Hoping and believing that one’s pets will go to the heaven is hardly the equivalent of the kind of craziness that leads to people blowing their savings on diamond collars for their animals etc.

Great post Jane.