M
Montalban
Guest
Many Christians hid Jews. Some, were even nominally Catholic, such as Oscar Schindler. Interestingly, one Japanese convert to Christainity; Sugihara was Orthodox.
However the Vatican hid Nazis.
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However the Vatican hid Nazis.
M
Montalban
Guest
Let’s not forget the Fourth Crusade; heavens knows, you might all be Orthodox!
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
I dunno. If they were REAL Swiss they would have had one of those nifty Swiss Army Knives… don’t those have a special anti-panzer division tool?I just can’t see the Swiss Guards standing up to a panzer division…
No?
Never mind then.
M
Montalban
Guest
Quite humorous, but diverting from the fact that the Pope’s power was not simply about his state’s military prowess.
Or, are all Catholics here going to argue that the Pope bears NO influence over the body of Catholics world-wide?
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
Ahh the old “rolleyes” smiley. It never gets old.Quite humorous, but diverting from the fact that the Pope’s power was not simply about his state’s military prowess.
Or, are all Catholics here going to argue that the Pope bears NO influence over the body of Catholics world-wide?
Does it much matter what Catholics argue Montalban? Your mind is made up, and when it comes to beating that horse, is there any stick that won’t do?
But to give it my best effort, if you want to see the effectivemess of are all-powerful Pope of Rome in comanding his faithful legion to do as told, you can look to how JP2s exhortations to not go to war in Iraq so mobilized the faithful en masse and *en bloc *to stymie the efforts of their governments in that effort…
Or at how well B15 did to bring WWI to an end…
M
Montalban
Guest
It has its uses, I imagine, hence this Catholic site made it available
Of course it does.
Ah, okay. Let’s close down this forum to people you believe have ‘made up their minds’. Here it comes again…
How has JP2’s expressions retrospectively helped the Jews from the Holocaust? I expect it doesn’t, and therefore has nothing to do with the subject, uh, oh, I feel another one.
So far your response is “Why should we respond to you, but if we must, here’s something that has nothing to do with what you discussed!”
And this has something to do with the Holocaust how?
Oops, there goes another one!
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
One Million pardons, sir.It has its uses, I imagine, hence this Catholic site made it available
Of course it does.
Ah, okay. Let’s close down this forum to people you believe have ‘made up their minds’. Here it comes again…
How has JP2’s expressions retrospectively helped the Jews from the Holocaust? I expect it doesn’t, and therefore has nothing to do with the subject, uh, oh, I feel another one.
So far your response is “Why should we respond to you, but if we must, here’s something that has nothing to do with what you discussed!”
And this has something to do with the Holocaust how?
When you stated “Or, are all Catholics here going to argue that the Pope bears NO influence over the body of Catholics world-wide?”
I had thought that was more open ended.
Of course I would not argue that it bears “no influence”. But the alternative to “no influence” isn’t “Influence enough to stop a madman”.
M
Montalban
Guest
How about a thousand…
go raibh mile maith agat (a thousand thanks)
Ah, so we test to see if he’s mad. If he is, we don’t resist him! Gotcha!
**-another just popped up
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
No oops. You do it on purpose. It isn’t cute.How about a thousand…
go raibh mile maith agat (a thousand thanks)
Ah, so we test to see if he’s mad. If he is, we don’t resist him! Gotcha!
*-another just popped up
And the sarcasm is noted. Please tell me what the righteous thing to do would have been? The one that would have worked and saved still more than the 85% of Italian Jewry that PXII saved.
Just come out with it - it is becoming clear how wrong you think he was. Pray tell how he could have been right.
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Montalban
Guest
Of course I did it on purpose. It highlights the remarks I’m making to the non-points you’re making.
Perhaps by condemning Nazism.
That’s not the point. The point isn’t who saved more Jews, else I’d be citing more about Wallenstein or Sugihara. The King of Greece I believe saved just 3 (personally - by hiding these three).
The point is that they all tried. What’d the Vatican do? They made some vague noises and then hid Nazis after the war.
There you go. Now what do you think they did?
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
Look up *Mit Brennender Sorge *
I think they saved 85%+ of Italy’s Jewish community.
I know they succeeeded in saving far more silently then they did when the spoke out. In the wake of *Mit Brennender Sorge * persecutions only increased.
This has been dealt with a good number of times in these forums.
catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp
***In Three Popes and the Jews Lapide estimated the total number of Jews that had been spared as a result of Pius XII’s throwing the Church’s weight into the clandestine struggle to save them. After totaling the numbers of Jews saved in different areas and deducting the numbers saved by other causes, such as the praiseworthy efforts of some European Protestants, “The final number of Jewish lives in whose rescue the Catholic Church had been the instrument is thus at least 700,000 souls, but in all probability it is much closer to . . . 860,000.”[21] This is a total larger than all other Jewish relief organizations in Europe, combined, were able to save. Lapide calculated that Pius XII and the Church he headed constituted the most successful Jewish aid organization in all of Europe during the war, dwarfing the Red Cross and all other aid societies.
This fact continued to be recognized when Pius XII died in 1958. Lapide’s book records the eulogies of a number of Jewish leaders concerning the Pope, and far from agreeing with Jack Chick that he deserved death because of his “war crimes,” Jewish leaders praised the man highly:***22]
Why do you suppose Montalman that Golda Meier - a Milwakee born Israeli who was no slouch in defending Israel or going after war criminals as PM of the SOI would have this to say about PXII?
"We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. . . . During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people passed through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims" (Golda Meir, Israeli representative to the U.N. and future prime minister of Israel).
If you want to persist in being very virulenty anti-Catholic and polemical, that is your perogative. I at least recognize it speaks more to your character than your embrace of Orthodoxy.
M
Montalban
Guest
If you mean Golda Meir, PM of Israel, she was not born in Milwakee.
Is this an insult, or just a typo? I’ll make no further comment to you until you clarify this
M
Montalban
Guest
Historians point out that any support the Pope did give the Jews came after 1942, once U.S. officials told him that the allies wanted total victory, and it became likely that they would get it. Furthering the notion that any intervention by Pius XII was based on practical advantage rather than moral inclination is the fact that in late 1942, Pius XII began to advise the German and Hungarian bishops that it would be to their ultimate political advantage to go on record as speaking out against the massacre of the Jews. (27)
One of the only cases in which the Pope gave early support to the allies was in May 1940. He received information about a German plan, Operation Yellow, to lay mines to deter British naval support of Holland. Pius XII gave his permission to send coded radio messages warning papal nuncios in Brussels and The Hague of the plot. The German radio monitoring services decoded the broadcast and went ahead with the plan.(28) This papal intervention is surprising due to the Pope’s persistent claim of neutrality, and his silence regarding almost all German atrocities.
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html#politics
No one’s commented on my point about the Ratlines.
Here’s another general article, at CBS
One of the only cases in which the Pope gave early support to the allies was in May 1940. He received information about a German plan, Operation Yellow, to lay mines to deter British naval support of Holland. Pius XII gave his permission to send coded radio messages warning papal nuncios in Brussels and The Hague of the plot. The German radio monitoring services decoded the broadcast and went ahead with the plan.(28) This papal intervention is surprising due to the Pope’s persistent claim of neutrality, and his silence regarding almost all German atrocities.
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html#politics
No one’s commented on my point about the Ratlines.
Here’s another general article, at CBS
A
ASimpleSinner
Guest
Alright then crack job on the error with Golda. her family had settled there while she was a child.
And yes, it is a typo. My insults are more clever than mispelling something.
Do go on.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
Would that it were that easy… you seemed to make no further comment until… 8 min later.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
Interestingly, the very same website - the Jewish Virtual Library - offers these three counter-point articles…
How to Manufacture a Legend:
The Controversy over the Alleged Silence
of Pope Pius XII in World War II
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef1.html
A Question of Judgment: Pius XII & the Jews
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef2.html
860,000 Lives Saved - The Truth About Pius XII and the Jews
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef2.html
N
NotWorthy
Guest
Let’s see, the Vatican hid Jews so the Nazi’s wouldn’t exterminate them. And the Vatican hid Nazis so that the Allies wouldn’t execute them.
Bad Vatican. Baaaaaad Vatican.
E
epostle
Guest
This is totally false, an no “historian” would jeaprodize their credentials with this kind of revisionism. That’s why no names are given. It’s opinion, not fact.
Another lie. Statements by Jewish authorites prove he was anything but “neutral.”
It just amazes me how so many can stick to the false propaganda against the Church, contrary to the reliable information presented in this thread.
What the Crusades Were Really Like (Part 1)
Thomas Madden Dispels Myths
zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=60179
The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition
catholic.net/RCC/Periodic…/article4.html
catholic.net/RCC/Periodic…6/column1.html
Documents show that renowned Jewish contemporaries of Pius XII strongly defended him—among them, Israeli Foreign Minister Golda Meir: “When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for the victims.” Nor can Albert Einstein’s statementt (Time Magazine, 1940) be ignored: “Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing the truth.”
THE JEWISH COMMUNITY SHOULD RETHINK ITS ATTITUDE TOWARD PIUS XII
by Sister Margherita Marchione Ph.D.
Pius XII was not “silent,” and his courageous acts during World War II are incontestable. When Vatican Archives were opened in February 2003 for the period 1922-1939, the media expected to find documents supporting the claim that Pope Pius XII did not do all he should have done to save the victims of the Holocaust. On the contrary, the new material confirms that Pius XII was indeed a champion for peace, freedom, human dignity; a pastor who encouraged Catholics to look on Christians and Jews as their brothers and sisters in Christ, all children of a common Father.
Historians and archivists confirm the authenticity of this document which demonstrates that, early on, the Vatican protested on behalf of Jews in Nazi Germany. It confirms the testimony of Father Robert Leiber who, in 1962, wrote an article on Pius XI’s papal encyclical of 1937, Mit Brennender Sorge, which appeared in the German periodical Stimmen der Zeit. Leiber wrote: "It is significant that the first initiative of the Holy See toward the government in Berlin concerned the Jews. As early as April 4, 1933, ten days after the Enabling Act, the Apostolic Nuncio in Berlin was ordered to intervene with the government of the Reich on behalf of the Jews and to point out all the dangers involved in an anti-Semitic policy.“http://www.catholicleague.org/research/pius_archival_evidence.htm
catholicleague.org/pius/dalinframe.htm”]A Righteous Gentile: Pope Pius XII and the Jews
By **Rabbi **David Dalin, Ph.D.
Anti-catholicism is a spiritual cancer. It’s based on self-hatred, and lies become truth. All the editorials and testimonies from Jews (that can still be found in library archives available to the public) from WWII in secular newspapers are dismissed as a Jesuit conspiracy, or just ignored because attacking the Church meets some sick need.
Seeking the truth on these matters just doesn’t give the same rush.
M
Montalban
Guest
Well I have other things to do, like watch the mighty Eels crush our enemies, the Bulldogs.
When too much sport is never enough!
Had you been more attentive you’d note I made further comments above yours anyway
though not addressed to you specifically, they deal with the timing of the Pope’s messages.
M
Montalban
Guest
That’s right, after WWII (in 1945) the Vatican was necessary to stop Jewish-death squads then roaming the lands of Europe in search of Nazis, bent on murder.
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