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Peter_J
Guest
(That was a joke.)
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sallybutler
Guest
So glad that some one else gets that Protestants don’t support Catholic beliefs. After all, they thought Catholics were evil and should not be recognized. Check your history, Catholics were not exactly welcomed in colonial America.
All the trouble began when they started letting Protestants into this country.
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Tomdstone
Guest
Should a Roman Catholic follow what the National Catholic Bioethics Center says or should she follow what the CCC says?
2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.
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sallybutler
Guest
Sorry, did not see this before I replied. It is obvious that you know Catholics weren’t welcome in the Protestant New World. We were anathema. People may talk about freedom of religion in early days,they didn’t mean Catholic.
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Peter_J
Guest
Is it an either/or?
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Sy_Noe
Guest
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
I’m actually surprised the name calling is allowed on CAF which purports not to favor or oppose any party. And one would think a Catholic internet site would oppose a “party of death” if there ever were such a thing.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
Sally, I too am sorry for the grief you experienced. My mother miscarried but before I came along. I’m sure your doctor was correct. I don’t have all the answers. But I pray you have found some peace since and been blessed.
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sallybutler
Guest
Thank you. I am pretty sure that the every woman who has had a miscarriage wonders what she did that caused it ( nothing), was there a soul involved, should there be funeral mass. I never considered this unit I being on CAF. Am I a bad Catholic for not having a funeral mass when I had a miscarriage? Is that child doomed because I didn’t have it baptized?
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Lily_Bernans
Guest
They aren’t in conflict, Tom. The NCBC says that all life should be respected, and just because we don’t know when a human being is infused with a soul doesn’t mean we shouldn’t protect and respect its life, i.e., no abortions. Even if a human fetus doesn’t have a soul until viability as some ethicists believe, the potential for personhood is there from the very beginning.
However, some people of different faiths genuinely think differently, and because they do doesn’t make them a “bad” person. Take Sanders and Clinton for example. Whatever you think of Sanders and Clinton, set it aside for a moment, and just consider the abortion issue. Sanders and Clinton seem to genuinely believe that a fetus, at least in the first trimester, is not yet a person with an immortal soul. They both say they have prayed about this. Both were raised in religious households - Sanders in a Jewish household and Clinton in a Protestant household. Clinton attends regular Methodist church services. Are we to judge them “bad” people for their beliefs? No, we aren’t to “judge” anyone, though we do have to make value judgments every day. We can vote for them. Our vote isn’t going to increase the number of abortions. We don’t really know who Kasich, or Cruz, or Trump would appoint to the SC and how that justice would vote on the abortion issue. None of us have a crystal ball. If we could know that abortions would rise dramatically then I agree, we should not vote for them. However, it was a Repub. SC that ushered in legal abortion, and abortions have declined sharply under Obama and this particular SC. We don’t know the future. Taking in all the issues, I believe the vast majority of Americans are going to be better off with either Sanders or Clinton as president than one of the Repub. candidates, at least in this election cycle. You don’t. Both of us are fine as long as we’ve considered every issue - abortion, immigration, income disparity, taxes, foreign policy, the environment, etc. Pope Francis has exhorted us to consider ALL of the issues.
Voting for a candidate who supports abortion is, at most, remote material cooperation with evil, and it carries little to no culpability.
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Lily_Bernans
Guest
This has happened in my family, too, Sally, and I am genuinely sorry for your loss, and I do know it is a great loss. I know my relative did nothing wrong, and I believe you did nothing wrong, either. Some people have fulfilled God’s will for them even before birth.
The CCC 1257 says:
“The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament (Mark 16:16)”.
However, the CCC 1260-1; 1283 states:
“Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized.”
Miscarried children who never had the chance to be baptized are considered “baptized by intention.” If your child died in utero, as my relative’s did, then I believe God called him or her home, and God’s mercy is infinite.
I believe your miscarried child is in heaven, and you will see him or her some day. It is good to name him or her, even if you can’t do it legally. And if you haven’t healed, and no one ever does completely, you could ask your pastor about an annual Mass of Hope and Healing for the mothers and fathers who have lost children in this manner. It really does help when all of you come together and pray as one. And please know that your sufferings unite you to Christ in a unique way. God is very close to the brokenhearted. It is a great blessing to suffer for the Lord, although I realize it doesn’t seem that way at times.
Please accept my sorrow at the loss of your child, and God bless you and your child.
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Lily_Bernans
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That’s a beautiful answer, grotto, beautiful thoughts.
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Cathoholic
Guest
sallybutler.
Very sorry to hear of your miscarriage.
Not only is a miscarriage hurtful for a woman, but they are heartbreaking for a dad too. Unfortunately I know first hand.
Your preborn baby has a soul.
Babies born 2 months pre-mature have souls too (7 months out from conception).
Living but UNBORN babies at 9 months have a soul too. And when they are delivered a week later (in the case of a mom 1 week over due), they still have their soul.
And although there is no ex cathedra statements, when our (“our” as in “our society”) children are two years old, they have a soul (even though people like Peter Singer will try to suggest they are not “persons” at age 2, because they “can’t tell their story” yet. But Singer is wrong.).
And when kids are 10 years old they have a soul.
And Grandma and Grandpa (again in the sense of society, not “your” or “my” Grandma or Grandpa) are quite old, and may have had a severe stroke, they too have a soul. Even though you won’t find ex cathedra statements on it.
And yes, they had a soul from their moment of conception.
In other words, ALL living persons have souls associated with them. Spiritual souls.
And just because “THIS declaration” doesn’t answer your question, don’t be fooled into thinking that means “NO declaration” exists (even though, with natural law, such “declarations” don’t NEED to exist for them to have force.)
QUOTE:
This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused.
Just because something isn’t answered in “THIS declaration” don’t fall into the fallacy of equivocation and think that necessarily means "OTHER declarations" can’t or don’t answer such questions.
A priest friend of mine has had intense discussions with the NCBC on this very issue.
With a miscarriage, you may not be able to have a funeral, but remember, God is OUTSIDE of time. So you can still do things such as pray for your baby. You can ask your baby to pray for you too. We had a Mass said for our baby. If I recall correctly, maybe more than one Mass.
You also stated . . .
QUOTE:
I cannot vote for a Protestant that believes in any of the Apocalyptic theories. Especially one who was baptized a Catholic and will not accept what the Church teaches.
Although you did not say it explicitly, I think you are alluding to Senator Cruz here (NONE of the candidates remaining are Catholic as far as I know).
Can you give a citation where Cruz (or any of the other candidates for comparison) talk about their views on eschatology or “end-times theology”?
This may help me get a better understanding about what you mean here. Thank you.
As far as I know, Cruz never left the Catholic faith that I recall. His dad may have, but his Dad of course, isn’t running for President.
You are not holding Senator Cruz accountable for the religion his parents raised him are you? Are you doing this with OTHER candidates too? If so what conclusions did you come to on THEM?
Senator Cruz has never been Catholic in the sense of a practicing Catholic.
I hope and pray that he WILL become a Catholic some day. He has some very Catholic friends.
Dr. Robert George (of Princeton University) is an intellectual giant and if Cruz ever has questions about the Catholic faith, someone like George is probably who someone like Cruz would seek out for Catholic answers.
Here is Senator Cruz’s interview with Dr. George.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=dr_yshI9D7A
Very sorry to hear of your miscarriage.
Not only is a miscarriage hurtful for a woman, but they are heartbreaking for a dad too. Unfortunately I know first hand.
Your preborn baby has a soul.
Babies born 2 months pre-mature have souls too (7 months out from conception).
Living but UNBORN babies at 9 months have a soul too. And when they are delivered a week later (in the case of a mom 1 week over due), they still have their soul.
And although there is no ex cathedra statements, when our (“our” as in “our society”) children are two years old, they have a soul (even though people like Peter Singer will try to suggest they are not “persons” at age 2, because they “can’t tell their story” yet. But Singer is wrong.).
And when kids are 10 years old they have a soul.
And Grandma and Grandpa (again in the sense of society, not “your” or “my” Grandma or Grandpa) are quite old, and may have had a severe stroke, they too have a soul. Even though you won’t find ex cathedra statements on it.
And yes, they had a soul from their moment of conception.
In other words, ALL living persons have souls associated with them. Spiritual souls.
And just because “THIS declaration” doesn’t answer your question, don’t be fooled into thinking that means “NO declaration” exists (even though, with natural law, such “declarations” don’t NEED to exist for them to have force.)
QUOTE:
This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused.
Just because something isn’t answered in “THIS declaration” don’t fall into the fallacy of equivocation and think that necessarily means "OTHER declarations" can’t or don’t answer such questions.
A priest friend of mine has had intense discussions with the NCBC on this very issue.
With a miscarriage, you may not be able to have a funeral, but remember, God is OUTSIDE of time. So you can still do things such as pray for your baby. You can ask your baby to pray for you too. We had a Mass said for our baby. If I recall correctly, maybe more than one Mass.
You also stated . . .
QUOTE:
I cannot vote for a Protestant that believes in any of the Apocalyptic theories. Especially one who was baptized a Catholic and will not accept what the Church teaches.
Although you did not say it explicitly, I think you are alluding to Senator Cruz here (NONE of the candidates remaining are Catholic as far as I know).
Can you give a citation where Cruz (or any of the other candidates for comparison) talk about their views on eschatology or “end-times theology”?
This may help me get a better understanding about what you mean here. Thank you.
As far as I know, Cruz never left the Catholic faith that I recall. His dad may have, but his Dad of course, isn’t running for President.
You are not holding Senator Cruz accountable for the religion his parents raised him are you? Are you doing this with OTHER candidates too? If so what conclusions did you come to on THEM?
Senator Cruz has never been Catholic in the sense of a practicing Catholic.
I hope and pray that he WILL become a Catholic some day. He has some very Catholic friends.
Dr. Robert George (of Princeton University) is an intellectual giant and if Cruz ever has questions about the Catholic faith, someone like George is probably who someone like Cruz would seek out for Catholic answers.
Here is Senator Cruz’s interview with Dr. George.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=dr_yshI9D7A
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Lily_Bernans
Guest
I believe that miscarried children have a soul, however that is just my belief. And surely any child who is born and living has a soul.
However, please don’t mislead people about Church teaching. The Church does NOT teach, in ANY document about when God infuses a new life with an immortal soul. That it happens immediately when it happens is not a question, but the Church does NOT teach WHEN it happens. People have a right to know the truth about Church teaching. This does not mean the Church ever condones abortion. Of course it doesn’t.
I’m sure you can find someone who believes it happens at the moment of conception, just as I’m sure someone else can find people who say it doesn’t happen until birth, etc.
Life is filled with mystery; the Catholic faith is filled with mystery. That is one of its beauties and is as it should be. God, himself, is filled with mystery.
Edit: In post #1038, I am not trying to exhort people to vote for a Democrat. I’m just saying they should consider all the issues and whether or not their conscience is well-formed, and vote for the candidate they choose. I do not try to influence anyone’s vote.
However, please don’t mislead people about Church teaching. The Church does NOT teach, in ANY document about when God infuses a new life with an immortal soul. That it happens immediately when it happens is not a question, but the Church does NOT teach WHEN it happens. People have a right to know the truth about Church teaching. This does not mean the Church ever condones abortion. Of course it doesn’t.
I’m sure you can find someone who believes it happens at the moment of conception, just as I’m sure someone else can find people who say it doesn’t happen until birth, etc.
Life is filled with mystery; the Catholic faith is filled with mystery. That is one of its beauties and is as it should be. God, himself, is filled with mystery.
Edit: In post #1038, I am not trying to exhort people to vote for a Democrat. I’m just saying they should consider all the issues and whether or not their conscience is well-formed, and vote for the candidate they choose. I do not try to influence anyone’s vote.
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Darryl1958
Guest
It is rather meaningless to teach that something happens immediately without any reference to anything else. The rate of infusion is of little moral or theological consequence, if it could happen at anytime along the development of the human organism.
At any rate, infusion is not the best description of the oneness of body and soul.
Better to not get caught up in any potential dualism and recognize that the resurrection of the body implies not so much that our bodies are infused with souls, but that we are souls.
At any rate, infusion is not the best description of the oneness of body and soul.
Better to not get caught up in any potential dualism and recognize that the resurrection of the body implies not so much that our bodies are infused with souls, but that we are souls.
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Lily_Bernans
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The Church teaches that man is a body-soul. A soul existing within a body. If we were pure souls, naturally, there would be no need for the Resurrection.
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Darryl1958
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That pretty much puts any talk of soul infusion to rest too.
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estesbob
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So you would have Cardinal Burke banned from a Catholic Internet site?
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estesbob
Guest
Sally I’m sorry for your loss . I have four daughters and they have suffered three miscarriages among them, the latest being three weeks ago . My oldest daughter lost her child at about four months gestational two years ago. I mentioned her and her child during intentions at Mass and afterwords was stopped by a lady who had sat behind me at daily mass for some 10 years . Turns out she was a Cathoilc Obstetrician She told me I should pass two things along to my daughter :
- It was not her fault
- Her child was in heaven
My oldest daughter, by the way, is now about six months pregnant and the child appears to be healthy and we’re looking forward to her arrival in July
You and your child are in my thoughts and prayers
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estesbob
Guest
The moment of infusion is an interesting theological discussion that is totally irrelevant as far as church teaching on the right to life of the unborn. And yes we should follow Church teaching when voting and take to heart their firm ,clear teaching that all rights are dependent on the right to life and we can never vote in support of omeone who denies this right . I believe Catholic should be informed about the teachings of the church when they vote and there’s way too much of misinformation out there on what those teachings are .- usually promulgated by those trying to rationalize their support of pro abortion candidates
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