Cruz Thread

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zz912 said:
The Church teaches that:
  1. Life begins at conception.
  2. It is human life
  3. Humans are a union of soul and body
  4. The soul gives life to the body
  5. A person has both soul and body.
  6. It is a person at conception.
Ergo, there is a soul infused at conception. If the soul is not infused at conception, then the body is not alive, and not a person. The Church teaches at conception a person is alive.

And you can’t weasel out of your support of pro-abortion politicians by claiming you want a constitutional amendment outlawing abortion. You vote into power those who would prevent such an amendment from ever passing. You support those who are virulently opposed to the Christian faith.

And I don’t find Sanders caring at all. He supports killing babies. Such a person is not caring.
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First, I don’t “weasel.” I’m voting Democratic and if someone thinks that will doom be to hell, they can think it. I feel really good about my vote and confident it will not cause more abortions. As I said previously, abortion declined 13% under Obama, a Democrat. Obama never forced one woman to have an abortion, and he didn’t drive any pregnant women to abortion clinics.

You still haven’t shown me an official Church document that says one can’t vote for a pro-choice candidate or one that shows when God infuses life with a soul. Your “timeline” doesn’t prove a thing. The Church does NOT teach when the human is infused with a soul.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
First, I don’t “weasel.” I’m voting Democratic and if someone thinks that will doom be to hell, they can think it. I feel really good about my vote and confident it will not cause more abortions. As I said previously, abortion declined 13% under Obama, a Democrat. Obama never forced one woman to have an abortion, and he didn’t drive any pregnant women to abortion clinics.

You still haven’t shown me an official Church document that says one can’t vote for a pro-choice candidate or one that shows when God infuses life with a soul. Your “timeline” doesn’t prove a thing. The Church does NOT teach when the human is infused with a soul.
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I don’t think I saw a single Clinton supporter on here tell us what good things they think Hillary Clinton is actually going to do, specifically, to justify their supporting an abortion-promoter like her.

Democrats seem to support her just because she’s a Democrat. And to be a Democrat now, one has to support abortion on demand because the party really doesn’t stand for anything else. She stands for lots of things Democrats purport to hate; warmongering, being in bed with big business, even sitting on the board of Walmart while it fought both unionization and higher wages.

And yet, they support her. Inasmuch as there is really no other policy reason to support her, it’s difficult to escape the conclusion that many support her because of her support for abortion, not in spite of it. Let’s face it, there are a lot of people in this country who have a personal investment in abortion because they have either had one or were complicit in someone else having one. That’s a constituency all its own.

Obama might not have ever driven a woman to an abortion clinic (and we don’t know he didn’t) but he has forced, with the arm of the state, all of us to support it financially. And Hillary supported that and will double down on it.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I don’t think I saw a single Clinton supporter on here tell us what good things they think Hillary Clinton is actually going to do, specifically, to justify their supporting an abortion-promoter like her.

Democrats seem to support her just because she’s a Democrat. And to be a Democrat now, one has to support abortion on demand because the party really doesn’t stand for anything else. She stands for lots of things Democrats purport to hate; warmongering, being in bed with big business, even sitting on the board of Walmart while it fought both unionization and higher wages.

And yet, they support her. Inasmuch as there is really no other policy reason to support her, it’s difficult to escape the conclusion that many support her because of her support for abortion, not in spite of it. Let’s face it, there are a lot of people in this country who have a personal investment in abortion because they have either had one or were complicit in someone else having one. That’s a constituency all its own.

Obama might not have ever driven a woman to an abortion clinic (and we don’t know he didn’t) but he has forced, with the arm of the state, all of us to support it financially. And Hillary supported that and will double down on it.
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That is not true, to say I vote for a democrat bc of their stance on abortion is cynical.
Maybe I vote for a democrat bc I like what they say about college and tuition. Or their efforts for immigration reform.

But to say somebody votes for a democrat bc of abortion is not right.
 
chero23 said:
That is not true, to say I vote for a democrat bc of their stance on abortion is cynical.
Maybe I vote for a democrat bc I like what they say about college and tuition. Or their efforts for immigration reform.

But to say somebody votes for a democrat bc of abortion is not right.
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Of course those denied the right to life don’t have to worry about immigrating or college . I suspect that is part of the Democrat Party solution
 
chero23 said:
That is not true, to say I vote for a democrat bc of their stance on abortion is cynical.
Maybe I vote for a democrat bc I like what they say about college and tuition. Or their efforts for immigration reform.

But to say somebody votes for a democrat bc of abortion is not right.
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If anybody really believes Clinton or Sanders is going to make college tuition free, he ought to take a reality pill. Remember how many people believed Obama was going to make medical care free, or at least massively reduce its cost and the cost of insurance? For some few it did become free. For the majority, it became greatly more expensive.

And remember Obama’s program to save people from foreclosure? It’s a will o the wisp, with no reality to it.

And what “immigration reform” do you have in mind? More engineers from India? More welfare seekers from Latin America? Or is there some rational plan that would benefit the economy and the people already here? So far, nobody has been able to produce the latter.

Remember all the people who thought Obama was going to pay for their gas? Demagogues tell people things like that so they can get back to 'abortion as usual".
 
Ridgerunner said:
If anybody really believes Clinton or Sanders is going to make college tuition free, he ought to take a reality pill. Remember how many people believed Obama was going to make medical care free, or at least massively reduce its cost and the cost of insurance? For some few it did become free. For the majority, it became greatly more expensive.

And remember Obama’s program to save people from foreclosure? It’s a will o the wisp, with no reality to it.

And what “immigration reform” do you have in mind? More engineers from India? More welfare seekers from Latin America? Or is there some rational plan that would benefit the economy and the people already here? So far, nobody has been able to produce the latter.

Remember all the people who thought Obama was going to pay for their gas? Demagogues tell people things like that so they can get back to 'abortion as usual".
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But to say they vote democrat bc they agree on their position of abortion is absurd, your using a cop out.

It’s if they said, “People who vote republican are racist, all they want are there guns, support the rich and are mainly white male”.

Look at Romney in 2012, most of his votes or constituents, were white male.
 
chero23 said:
But to say they vote democrat bc they agree on their position of abortion is absurd, your using a cop out.

It’s if they said, “People who vote republican are racist, all they want are there guns, support the rich and are mainly white male”.

Look at Romney in 2012, most of his votes or constituents, were white male.
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Have you read the Democrat Party platform?
 
Ridgerunner said:
I don’t think I saw a single Clinton supporter on here tell us what good things they think Hillary Clinton is actually going to do, specifically, to justify their supporting an abortion-promoter like her.

Democrats seem to support her just because she’s a Democrat. And to be a Democrat now, one has to support abortion on demand because the party really doesn’t stand for anything else. She stands for lots of things Democrats purport to hate; warmongering, being in bed with big business, even sitting on the board of Walmart while it fought both unionization and higher wages.

And yet, they support her. Inasmuch as there is really no other policy reason to support her, it’s difficult to escape the conclusion that many support her because of her support for abortion, not in spite of it. Let’s face it, there are a lot of people in this country who have a personal investment in abortion because they have either had one or were complicit in someone else having one. That’s a constituency all its own.

Obama might not have ever driven a woman to an abortion clinic (and we don’t know he didn’t) but he has forced, with the arm of the state, all of us to support it financially. And Hillary supported that and will double down on it.
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Why are you posting to me? I’m a Sanders supporter.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
First, I don’t “weasel.” I’m voting Democratic and if someone thinks that will doom be to hell, they can think it. I feel really good about my vote and confident it will not cause more abortions. As I said previously, abortion declined 13% under Obama, a Democrat. Obama never forced one woman to have an abortion, and he didn’t drive any pregnant women to abortion clinics.

You still haven’t shown me an official Church document that says one can’t vote for a pro-choice candidate or one that shows when God infuses life with a soul. Your “timeline” doesn’t prove a thing. The Church does NOT teach when the human is infused with a soul.
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Which means we are completely free to believe that it is at conception.

Regardless of there being an actual teaching regarding ensoulment, the Church never has made a destinction between humans with immortal souls and humans with mortal souls, or there being a difference in value.

Our Catholic faith, Professor Bernans, teaches abortion is immoral.
2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a “criminal” practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.
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2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.
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God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.
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272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” “by the very commission of the offense,” and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
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2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.
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Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, “if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence.”
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chero23 said:
Maybe I vote for a democrat bc I like what they say about college and tuition. Or their efforts for immigration reform.
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I don’t question that each party has their good points and their bad points. But those things don’t change the fact that the Dems support abortion on demand.
 
Peter_J said:
I don’t question that each party has their good points and their bad points. But those things don’t change the fact that the Dems support abortion on demand.
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But if you asked every person who vote democrat, people will say, I don’t agree with their position on abortion, or gay marriage.
 
chero23 said:
But if you asked every person who vote democrat, people will say, I don’t agree with their position on abortion, or gay marriage.
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But the thing is, not all disagreements are equal. E.g. I imagine there are many things I could find on which I disagree with John Kasich, but none of them are comparable to someone like HRC who supports a abortion on demand.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
The Church does NOT teach when the human is infused with a soul.
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I don’t see why that is relevant to anything. The Church teaches abortion is wrong from the moment of conception:
2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a “criminal” practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law.
 
chero23 said:
But to say they vote democrat bc they agree on their position of abortion is absurd, your using a cop out.

It’s if they said, “People who vote republican are racist, all they want are there guns, support the rich and are mainly white male”.

Look at Romney in 2012, most of his votes or constituents, were white male.
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People either vote for Democrat because they agree with that position on abortion, or because they just don’t much care.

What is absurd is to listen to people rant on how much women who abort are murderers who must be punished, whilst throwing their support to Democrats, the party that ensures the widest possible access to abortion, and whose election platform is that to oppose abortion is to wage a war on women.
 
Peter_J said:
I don’t question that each party has their good points and their bad points. But those things don’t change the fact that the Dems support abortion on demand.
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Then why does abortion always decline under Democratic presidents? It declined 13% under Obama. That’s quite a lot.
 
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