Crystal Cathedral out of money

[Dale_M]

Crystal Cathedral Ministries is still occupying the building which the Diocese of Orange bought from them several months ago. Under the terms of the sale, CCM had the right to remain in the premises for up to three years. However, financial difficulties may force an earlier move.

The Crystal Cathedral is working on a “cash flow only” basis with enough money to cover expenses through June, but attendance and donations are increasing and leaders are looking toward a new beginning for the troubled ministry, leaders say.

The second chapter of the bankrupt church will likely include a move to St. Callistus Catholic Church, CEO and President John Charles told hundreds of congregants gathered for a meeting Wednesday night.

“(We can) move somewhere that for the first year is rent free. Can you beat that?” Charles said.

Currently, the ministry is paying $115,000 per month for rent to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange, which bought the campus in a court-ordered sale in February.

The move would likely come next year as cathedral leaders need to give the Catholic Diocese six months notice.

ocregister.com/news/leaders-354648-church-congregants.html

Photo of St. Callistus, the likely new home for CCM

(click picture to make bigger)

 

[runningdude]

I’ve looked up the exterior of St. Callistus in California, and it a modern-style church building. The Diocese of Orange would not be loosing an architectural gem by swapping it for the Chrystal Cathedral building.

While the Chrystal Cathedral is also a modern-style building, I do appreciate the significance of one of the great monuments of Protestantism being converted for Catholic worship.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Still, I am concerned about a Catholic church, no matter how ugly, being unwittingly desecrated by a Protestant group, who may not be fully aware of the liturgical significance and holiness of many of its structures, not least being the tabernacle and altar. Will the church be staffed by CCM and de-consecrated? Or will CCM simply be conducting its services on the premises while it continues to operate as a Catholic church? In that case, will there be any safeguards in place to ensure that the sanctity of the sanctuary remains inviolate?

 

[SonCatcher]

Still, I am concerned about a Catholic church, no matter how ugly, being unwittingly desecrated by a Protestant group, who may not be fully aware of the liturgical significance and holiness of many of its structures, not least being the tabernacle and altar. Will the church be staffed by CCM and de-consecrated? Or will CCM simply be conducting its services on the premises while it continues to operate as a Catholic church? In that case, will there be any safeguards in place to ensure that the sanctity of the sanctuary remains inviolate?

It would be deconsecrated if CCM expresses intent to buy the St. Callistus property. The Blessed Sacrament would certainly be removed if their use is only temporary. Either way, they wouldn’t have access to the tabernacle or vessels.

 

[Joe_5859]

I cannot say I am surprised. Most of the news coverage I read when the Diocese of Orange first bought the Crystal Cathedral pretty much said that this would likely happen.

Still, I am concerned about a Catholic church, no matter how ugly, being unwittingly desecrated by a Protestant group, who may not be fully aware of the liturgical significance and holiness of many of its structures, not least being the tabernacle and altar. Will the church be staffed by CCM and de-consecrated? Or will CCM simply be conducting its services on the premises while it continues to operate as a Catholic church? In that case, will there be any safeguards in place to ensure that the sanctity of the sanctuary remains inviolate?

I wouldn’t worry about this. I’m sure they will do all that is necessary per Canon Law to commit the building to profane (but not sordid) use. Not that I use the word “profane” in the way that Canon Law uses the term. I do not use it in the sense that many use it today as an interchangeable synonym for “vulgar”. No insult is intended.

 

[runningdude]

Still, I am concerned about a Catholic church, no matter how ugly, being unwittingly desecrated by a Protestant group, who may not be fully aware of the liturgical significance and holiness of many of its structures, not least being the tabernacle and altar. Will the church be staffed by CCM and de-consecrated? Or will CCM simply be conducting its services on the premises while it continues to operate as a Catholic church? In that case, will there be any safeguards in place to ensure that the sanctity of the sanctuary remains inviolate?

St. Callistus is about a half mile from the Crystal Cathedral, and its parish would be merged with the new cathedral parish. Catholic worship would cease, and any liturgical items would be removed before Crystal Cathedral Ministry buys the property and moves in.

The Crystal Cathedral building itself would then be renovated extensively to make it appropriate for Catholic worship (sadly no more climbing walls in the sanctuary!).

 

[Filii_Dei]

“(We can) move somewhere that for the first year is rent free. Can you beat that?” Charles said.

I presume that from this statement it appears that the Diocese will retain ownership of the property, while renting it out to CCM, rather than CCM buying the property itself. So does this mean that the church will necessarily be de-consecrated even though the Diocese continues to hold the title to the property? Or will they continue to retain a consecrated status as it remains in the hands of the Diocese?

I am not familiar with the procedure in tackling such situations, but I suppose it’s possible we would see the church continue to be owned by the Diocese but de-consecrated while CCM is a tenant.

 

[SonCatcher]

I presume that from this statement it appears that the Diocese will retain ownership of the property, while renting it out to CCM, rather than CCM buying the property itself. So does this mean that the church will necessarily be de-consecrated even though the Diocese continues to hold the title to the property? Or will they continue to retain a consecrated status as it remains in the hands of the Diocese?

I am not familiar with the procedure in tackling such situations, but I suppose it’s possible we would see the church continue to be owned by the Diocese but de-consecrated while CCM is a tenant.

They also have the option to buy at less than market rate. However, they may be more interested in choosing their own property.

 

[runningdude]

I presume that from this statement it appears that the Diocese will retain ownership of the property, while renting it out to CCM, rather than CCM buying the property itself. So does this mean that the church will necessarily be de-consecrated even though the Diocese continues to hold the title to the property? Or will they continue to retain a consecrated status as it remains in the hands of the Diocese?

I am not familiar with the procedure in tackling such situations, but I suppose it’s possible we would see the church continue to be owned by the Diocese but de-consecrated while CCM is a tenant.

The bishop can allow a non-Catholic Christian group use a consecrated sanctuary when it does not have access to a dignified place of worship of its own. I’m sure the lease would have certain restrictions in place if this were the case. In France, hundreds of underused church-buildings are leased to Protestants while remaining consecrated, so this is not unprecedented.

However, as the Parish of Saint Callistus will either be merged or suppressed, there is nothing inherently illogical about the diocese de-consecrating the building while retaining ownership. When many parishes expand or move, the old church is often converted for use as a social hall or similar use. In the CCM case, its would be used as a rental property for the time being until permanent arrangements are made.

I think it is only a lease arrangement right now, rather than an outright purchase by CCM, because the financial situation for CCM is still fluid. A “rent-free” year gives them some breathing room. As a note, this isn’t as truly “rent-free” arrangement, as the dioceses got a huge discount on the Crystal Cathedral building. Having use of the Saint Callistus property is simply one conditions for getting the discount.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I am extremely interested in seeing how exactly they are going to make the CC into a proper Catholic cathedral on the interior.

 

[SonCatcher]

I am extremely interested in seeing how exactly they are going to make the CC into a proper Catholic cathedral on the interior.

That all depends on what you consider to be “proper,” I’m afraid. An earlier thread became quite virulent over just that definition.

I’m sure if you limit your definition to the presence of an altar, tabernacle, cathedra and baptismal font without any presumption on style or location then you won’t be disappointed.

Anyone hoping for Gothic or California Mission style will probably be disappointed.

I think we should just wait until it’s revealed before we debate its styling.

 

[YoungTradCath]

That all depends on what you consider to be “proper,” I’m afraid. An earlier thread became quite virulent over just that definition.

I’m sure if you limit your definition to the presence of an altar, tabernacle, cathedra and baptismal font without any presumption on style or location then you won’t be disappointed.

Anyone hoping for Gothic or California Mission style will probably be disappointed.

I think we should just wait until it’s revealed before we debate its styling.

I don’t know about that!

 

[runningdude]

kathyschiffer.com/crystal-cathedral-was-the-holy-spirit-the-highest-bidder

Not authoritative, but the author of this blog seems to be familiar with the Bishop’s plans for the new Cathedrals renovations. She says the interior will be gutted, with the stadium seating replaced with pews, a sanctuary built, and only only the organ preserved. Hopefully, stations of the cross and religious artwork and sculptures will be added as well.

I personally also hope they renovate the grounds as well. Currently, the building is surrounded on two sides by parking lots with no direct access by foot from the public street. Every other Cathedral I’ve visited is built right up to the sidewalk, so I hope they modify the grounds to create a more welcoming pedestrian entrance.

Below is the view from South Lewis Street from Google Maps. I hope current the driveway is replaced by lawns and gardens!

 

[SonCatcher]

kathyschiffer.com/crystal-cathedral-was-the-holy-spirit-the-highest-bidder

Not authoritative, but the author of this blog seems to be familiar with the Bishop’s plans for the new Cathedrals renovations. She says the interior will be gutted, with the stadium seating replaced with pews, a sanctuary built, and only only the organ preserved. Hopefully, stations of the cross and religious artwork and sculptures will be added as well.

Actually, it looks to me like she extrapolated the minimum from the bishop’s public statements. Some of the announced changes basically require gutting the cathedral. I doubt she has an inside line as she is from Michigan and does not enumerate any exclusive interviews.

I didn’t know about the statue of Servant of God Fulton Sheen. I wonder whether it’s included in the sale. If he is canonized, he is likely to be a patron of televangelism (I hope there is a less gaudy term by then) so it would be curiously appropriate.

 

[runningdude]

Actually, it looks to me like she extrapolated the minimum from the bishop’s public statements. Some of the announced changes basically require gutting the cathedral. I doubt she has an inside line as she is from Michigan and does not enumerate any exclusive interviews.

I agree, but she seems to be at least reasonably well read on the subject, basing her views on multiple public statements.

Since it is a Reformed church, removing the pews really does amount to “gutting” the interior, as it is pretty sparse already. To make room for a hopefully elevated sanctuary, they’d have to remove at least some of the front rows, and the stadium seats just don’t give it a Catholic feel (even by California standards ).

I’d like to see some stone work along the walls built up to eye level to hold stained glass windows and the stations of the cross. Then the soaring glass walls and roof can rise from this visual foundation, giving the building more of a human scale.

I didn’t know about the statue of Servant of God Fulton Sheen. I wonder whether it’s included in the sale. If he is canonized, he is likely to be a patron of televangelism (I hope there is a less gaudy term by then) so it would be curiously appropriate.

Saint John the Evangelist…

Saint Fulton the Televangelist!



(Canonize him soon - the bishop needs a patron to name the Cathedral after!)

 

[YoungTradCath]

I hope they don’t butcher it with something like a flock of stained glass doves.

 

[runningdude]

Here are some unofficial sketches and ideas presented by an architect in “The Living Church”, an Anglo-Catholic publication. It gives a fair representation of the challenges and limitations of converting the space from a preacher-orientated to a liturgically-orientated worship space. If nothing else, it can help inform our prayers for the bishops and architects involved in the project.

livingchurch.org/meetinghouse-house-god
http://www.livingchurch.org/sites/default/files/field/image/Crystal Cover.jpg

 

[SonCatcher]

It’s official. They’re moving to St. Callistus next year.

From the O.C. Register:

GARDEN GROVE – The Crystal Cathedral Ministry, struggling to pay its $150,000 monthly rental to the Catholic Church, announced Thursday that it plans to leave its famous home in June 2013.

The ministry will be switching to St. Callistus Catholic Church.

As part of a sale agreement of the cathedral to the Catholic Diocese of Orange, the Protestant ministry had the option to move its congregation to the nearby Catholic church. Rent through December 2013 will be free and for the two years that follow, rent will be $25,000 per month.

 

[Dale_M]

It’s official. They’re moving to St. Callistus next year.

Thank you for this update. I am glad things are moving along, and wish the best for all persons involved in the upcoming changes.

St. Callistus seems to be a vibrant parish. It holds eight Masses on Sunday, plus two Masses on Saturday evening. Its community speaks Spanish, Vietnamese and English, so Masses on holy day are said in all three languages. I hope losing there church building will not disrupt their lives or faith.

Crystal Cathedral Ministries will likely have a harder time adjusting. They are moving to a smaller, less prestigious building. Recriminations haven’t yet gone away, and will likely continue. I hope their faith in Christ is not lessened, and perhaps that some may choose to remain in the Crystal Cathedral when it becomes a Catholic cathedral.

And I hope the transformation of the Crystal Cathedral goes smoothly, with a minimum of unexpected costs and a minimum of disappointment.

 

[runningdude]

I’m so excited to learn the name the bishop chose!