Cultural expectations of marriage through time

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Ok, and I’m open to what y’all have to say, but seriously this is exactly what I was just taking about. The answer to EVERY problem, especially marital problems, is more “working on it” - seek professional help! Psychoanalysis! Self help books! Seminars! Medical/psychological conditions!

I’m exploring the possibility of chilling out about it. Accepting that we’re not friends and it’s ok. Finding a dutiful fulfilment from him, and a hodgepodge of resources like other family and friends to make up the emotional difference.

So I guess the consensus so far is that emotional attachment and friendship is, in fact, the basis of a good marriage. And without it, I should be seeking psychological treatment. I’ll be interested in further comments if anyone joins in.
No, it’s not the answer to every problem.
You’re looking to literally everywhere, historical ideas, other people, and online strangers who can’t possibly know or understand the dynamics of your marriage and really are only hearing one side.
Why not invest some of this time and research into a professional; who see these things all.the.time. ?
I can’t imagine not being friends with my spouse. I can’t imagine why this is acceptable to you. I’m unsubscribing because I know you’re rejecting what I say. But that’s precisely the issue with online advice. I think it would be much harder to dismiss a professional’s advice. Or a priest even.
I wish you all the best.
 
Ok, and I’m open to what y’all have to say, but seriously this is exactly what I was just taking about. The answer to EVERY problem, especially marital problems, is more “working on it” - seek professional help! Psychoanalysis! Self help books! Seminars! Medical/psychological conditions!

I’m exploring the possibility of chilling out about it. Accepting that we’re not friends and it’s ok. Finding a dutiful fulfilment from him, and a hodgepodge of resources like other family and friends to make up the emotional difference.

So I guess the consensus so far is that emotional attachment and friendship is, in fact, the basis of a good marriage. And without it, I should be seeking psychological treatment. I’ll be interested in further comments if anyone joins in.
In all of this, you really don’t describe or talk much about your husband. The reason I bring that up is because you are indicating that you are doing all the work trying to be friends in the marriage, then on the other hand your saying, “why do we have to be friends”. We have no idea what your husband is like … should we?

Let me tell you, ‘friends’ is the wrong word to describe spouses. It wholly inadequate. Being friends is an element of marriage in the US today, but it should not be the primary one. The primary element in a married couple’s relationship, today in the US, is the wholeness of the individual before marriage. To Catholics, that includes God. Like another poster said, the support systems of family, parish and friends can go bye , bye very quickly when one has to move, which people often do today in the US.

We have no idea what is lacking in you or your husband, or your relationship with him. You don’t have to be best friends. You just have to love each other. Love as in an act of the will; not love as in feelings.

Movie depictions of romance are about as realistic as James Bond is to a spy.
 
I imagine that the reason many marriages in the past worked was because there was more stigma attached to divorce and broken marriages and it was therefore better to make it “work”. Also more people in the past likely saw marriage as a lifelong partnership rather than a relationship that could be abandoned if it didn’t work out well.

I am only married a few months now, but I married my best friend. We don’t always get on and we certainly don’t agree on every little detail but we are friends, and I think that will help our marriage. We have many good memories together as friends and that also helps our relationship. I think though, that the greatest glue for any marriage, is prayer and devotion to the faith. My wife and I certainly don’t share everything in common. I love kayaking at all times of the year and she would only ever be coaxed into a boat if the water is above 20C! 🙂
We sometimes even have different ideas about things like tidying up. But at the end of the day, I always look forward to coming home to her and discussing my day with her.

I personally think there’s nothing wrong, as such, with the “dutiful” marriage that you are talking about, but I would hate to just have that. I think that friendship is important in marriage, as you are spending your life with the other person…the least you can hope for is that they might be a friend.

Also, we both view marriage as a lifelong commitment and a sacrament.

For the record, I’ll list what I think is important for a lasting marriage in order of importance.
1 - They are Catholic and Christ is the centre of their lives
2 - They agree with all Church teaching
3 - They view marriage as sacramental and indissoluble
4 - They want kids and have similar ideas about parenting.
5 - They are your friend
 
I’m interested to hear all the opinions, not sure why people seem to be getting upset, or maybe in reading into it. It seems we can’t just discuss it without trying to give direction and make it exclusively about my marriage. I was wanting to discuss it in general, and then apply that discussion to my own situation. I gave my story as a reference point to the type of situation I have in mind. It’s clear those who have commented don’t share my opinions and that’s ok. That’s what I asked for. I am still hoping to hear from anyone who shares my experience of not being friends with my spouse. I thought I explained that despite my efforts, I find that we are not friends; not that I was unwilling to try since the beginning. It’s been six years of following all the advice given here, yet despite all the effort, the only actual peace comes from maintaining a certain distance. I was hoping to find some Catholic support here, since that would eliminate people who think an “open marriage” is ok, and other anti catholic ideas. I’m in search of a way to uphold my responsibilities as a good wife without becoming mired in expectations that are unrealistic in my specific situation. Perhaps I should be and will be, but I’m not now convinced that this is immoral or wrong in any way. But I’m still very interested in opinions that differ from mine, because I’m by no means any kind of expert who has it all figured out. And it’s a very interesting topic to me. Relations between men and women, how they’ve changed, why certain norms have changed and others haven’t, etc. If you share your opinion, please don’t expect me to base my life on it though.
 
I imagine that the reason many marriages in the past worked was because there was more stigma attached to divorce and broken marriages and it was therefore better to make it “work”. Also more people in the past likely saw marriage as a lifelong partnership rather than a relationship that could be abandoned if it didn’t work out well.

I am only married a few months now, but I married my best friend. We don’t always get on and we certainly don’t agree on every little detail but we are friends, and I think that will help our marriage. We have many good memories together as friends and that also helps our relationship. I think though, that the greatest glue for any marriage, is prayer and devotion to the faith. My wife and I certainly don’t share everything in common. I love kayaking at all times of the year and she would only ever be coaxed into a boat if the water is above 20C! 🙂
We sometimes even have different ideas about things like tidying up. But at the end of the day, I always look forward to coming home to her and discussing my day with her.

I personally think there’s nothing wrong, as such, with the “dutiful” marriage that you are talking about, but I would hate to just have that. I think that friendship is important in marriage, as you are spending your life with the other person…the least you can hope for is that they might be a friend.

Also, we both view marriage as a lifelong commitment and a sacrament.

For the record, I’ll list what I think is important for a lasting marriage in order of importance.
1 - They are Catholic and Christ is the centre of their lives
2 - They agree with all Church teaching
3 - They view marriage as sacramental and indissoluble
4 - They want kids and have similar ideas about parenting.
5 - They are your friend
Nice addition to this discussion. Congrats on your marriage! I agree that friendship is definitely preferable in marriage, but once you’re married to someone, it’s a little late, you know? That is to say, if we aren’t friends after 6 years of trying, not sure we ever will be. And I’m sure this is not unique to my marriage. There must be others throughout history who have had this lot in life and not just “survived” right? I hear exclusively from divorced or unhappy couples, or couples who are best friends. Is this an indication that a more distant marriage cannot be a good one? I don’t know. I’m trying to learn. I don’t want to try to dissolve my marriage, I’m wanting to find a way to make it work. Not just bare bones, unhappy, lifelong survival. But an actual good marriage, minus a close friendship.
 
Nice addition to this discussion. Congrats on your marriage! I agree that friendship is definitely preferable in marriage, but once you’re married to someone, it’s a little late, you know? That is to say, if we aren’t friends after 6 years of trying, not sure we ever will be. And I’m sure this is not unique to my marriage. There must be others throughout history who have had this lot in life and not just “survived” right? I hear exclusively from divorced or unhappy couples, or couples who are best friends. Is this an indication that a more distant marriage cannot be a good one? I don’t know. I’m trying to learn. I don’t want to try to dissolve my marriage, I’m wanting to find a way to make it work. Not just bare bones, unhappy, lifelong survival. But an actual good marriage, minus a close friendship.
For a good marriage (even in the minimal sense you mean), I think the spouses have to be at least allies fighting on the same side.
 
I’ve been married 6 years and recently I’ve been thinking a lot about how perspective impacts marriage. I don’t want to go off down the rabbit hole of same-sex marriage or other unusual issues, I’m strictly referring to sacramental marriage between Catholics. I’m curious to discuss different opinions about something because I want to impact my life with my choices for my marriage.

It seems to me there is a popular view of marriage in US culture today that says spouses are close friends who share nearly everything and find a lot of fulfilment in each other. The differences between the spouses are effaced and the lines between roles are blurred, with each spouse doing whatever is necessary to support the other spouse however he can. Traditional behavior doesn’t matter as much as the couple deciding together what works for them. Decisions go much farther than just thinking about what’s right and wrong, but must also fulfill the emotional needs of both spouses. Marriage is somewhat romantic in that the emotional content is one of the most, if not the most, important dimension. Ie, Staying with someone who doesn’t nurture your emotional needs is deemed a loveless marriage in need of serious intervention before it collapses. Spouses are soul mates who should get along well, prefer each other’s company, and be extremely compatible in their views, desires, goals, sexuality, etc. If this is not or ceases to be the case, the marriage is almost doomed. Even if they differ in some of these respects, spouses must be friends first and foremost. The only real solution to martial difficulties, aside from prayer and God’s grace, is therapy, learning to communicate better, self help strategies, mastering each other’s Love Languages, etc.

There seems to be a subtle but drastic difference in the view of marriage in other places in the world and through history. Marriage looks the same from the outside but is more focused on practicality and duty, where spouses get along well enough but aren’t necessarily friends. They live together but keep separate identities to some extent, coming together mainly for sex, family occasions, etc. Spouses generally have different and distinct roles that are not explored by the other spouse, and decisions about those roles are made by the one in that role without consulting the other much. There is nothing wrong with marriages being arranged by others who know both parties well enough. The couple learns to accept each other and adapt their lives but isn’t expected to fulfill their spouse on an emotional level. Couples often get along well, but there is not really a thought to psychoanalyzing each other specifically, just going off of a basic understanding of the opposite sex and a gradual getting to know the spouse. Expectations are more centered around roles and keeping the status quo, and each spouse learns through experience and from peers and elders how best to handle conflicts with their spouse. But conflicts aren’t as emotionally charged, rather disagreements that must be settled whether everyone is pleased with the results or not. The solution to many conflicts is not more communication, but more like a good night’s sleep, the passage of time, and just plain agreeing to disagree. Generally the one considered the leader on the subject gets the final say. Decisions are based more on objective morals than on subjective feelings of the spouse, and anything not sinful is considered fine.

There may be a tendency to romanticize the past (or different cultures) or conversely to believe that these people didn’t/don’t experience love like modern people in the US today. I’m not trying to go to either of those extremes. I realize that different personalities will make up different types of marriages, I just wanted to discuss the overall moré of the cultural norm. I’m going with a fundamental belief that human nature hasn’t changed much, ever, and essentially crosses cultural lines.

I don’t think these views are necessarily conscious, more like automatic expectations. In much the same way that growing children have always defied their parents to some extent but not in the way that’s socially accepted today. It’s not like there was a meeting where it was decided, it just sort of happened culturally.

I also realize that I just described caricatures, not perfect reality. Although I tried to use realistic examples and language.

So do you see the difference I’m talking about? If so what caused it? If you’re married which one does your marriage resemble more? What are other examples of this difference you’ve seen? Which do you think is preferable? Do you find one or the other unacceptable, or is it to each his own? How does pop culture like movies and music contribute to the problem or the solution? How does therapy and self help contribute to the problem or the solution? How does religion contribute to the problem or the solution? Does the view of marriage change from one to the other during the course of the actual marriage? Which way is our culture leaning for the future? Please discuss. 🙂
 
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guiltycatholic:
So do you see the difference I’m talking about? If so what caused it? If you’re married which one does your marriage resemble more? What are other examples of this difference you’ve seen? Which do you think is preferable? Do you find one or the other unacceptable, or is it to each his own? How does pop culture like movies and music contribute to the problem or the solution? How does therapy and self help contribute to the problem or the solution? How does religion contribute to the problem or the solution? Does the view of marriage change from one to the other during the course of the actual marriage? Which way is our culture leaning for the future? Please discuss. 🙂
I do see the difference that you are talking about and think it’s a very interesting question. I may have to think about it some more and come back to it. 🙂 Just off the top of my head, though, I wonder if part of it has to do with fact of women entering the workforce and no longer needing to rely on a husband for a living. In a world where virtually all women had to marry or else face the bleak prospect of being an old maid dependent on the charity of relatives, many (or perhaps most) women did not have the luxury of being able to be extremely picky in their choice of a husband. You had a limited period of time from about age 18-25 (give or take a few years, depending on which culture and era we are talking about), to make a choice that would almost certainly be final for the rest of your life. If you were neither wealthy nor pretty, your options were even fewer, and you might be lucky to receive even one offer of marriage, an offer that would not necessarily be from a man you love (think of poor Charlotte Lucas in Pride and Prejudice). Marrying for love was an ideal to strive for, but many chose or were forced by circumstances to marry for more practical considerations.

All that to say that people in eras past, even those who married for love, did not enter marriage expecting a soulmate, or even a “best friend.” You entered marriage hoping that it would increase your happiness, comfort, and stability, and expecting to start a family, but not expecting your spouse to fulfill all your emotional needs. I wonder if the “soulmate” view developed (in part) due to 1) women gaining financial independence and therefore becoming more at leisure to marry for love and also 2) due to the concepts of marriage and family becoming increasingly separated (i.e. children viewed as optional or even undesirable and not necessarily connected with marriage). If starting a family together is no longer a primary purpose of marriage and if social and financial security are no longer tied to marriage, then the romantic love/best friends aspect is seen as more crucial or central.

(Of course, it is hard to generalize about some of these things, as “the past” can’t be all lumped together and some of this varies with the time, culture, and social class being discussed.) Sorry, I am rambling now, and it is really late. 🙂
 
I think we have very high and often unrealistic ideas about romance and married couples have a lot less support which is a problematic combination.

Personally I don’t think I would want to be married to someone I wouldn’t want in my friendship group. I don’t think married couples need to be joined at the hip though. My husband and I know how to give each other space, have our own hobbies, do things alone as well as together.

I don’t think anyone should get married expecting their spouse to fill all their needs, best case scenario is you are marrying a wonderful human being, they’re still just a human being.
 
Nice addition to this discussion. Congrats on your marriage! I agree that friendship is definitely preferable in marriage, but once you’re married to someone, it’s a little late, you know? That is to say, if we aren’t friends after 6 years of trying, not sure we ever will be. And I’m sure this is not unique to my marriage. There must be others throughout history who have had this lot in life and not just “survived” right? I hear exclusively from divorced or unhappy couples, or couples who are best friends. Is this an indication that a more distant marriage cannot be a good one? I don’t know. I’m trying to learn. I don’t want to try to dissolve my marriage, I’m wanting to find a way to make it work. Not just bare bones, unhappy, lifelong survival. But an actual good marriage, minus a close friendship.
Yeah, I agree. I do think that’s possible. I also think there is nothing wrong with that. At the end of the day, marriage is supposed to be about getting you and your family to heaven so whatever approach works to do that has to be good.
 
I’m interested to hear all the opinions, not sure why people seem to be getting upset, or maybe in reading into it. It seems we can’t just discuss it without trying to give direction and make it exclusively about my marriage. I was wanting to discuss it in general, and then apply that discussion to my own situation. I gave my story as a reference point to the type of situation I have in mind. It’s clear those who have commented don’t share my opinions and that’s ok. That’s what I asked for. I am still hoping to hear from anyone who shares my experience of not being friends with my spouse. I thought I explained that despite my efforts, I find that we are not friends; not that I was unwilling to try since the beginning. It’s been six years of following all the advice given here, yet despite all the effort, the only actual peace comes from maintaining a certain distance. I was hoping to find some Catholic support here, since that would eliminate people who think an “open marriage” is ok, and other anti catholic ideas. I’m in search of a way to uphold my responsibilities as a good wife without becoming mired in expectations that are unrealistic in my specific situation. Perhaps I should be and will be, but I’m not now convinced that this is immoral or wrong in any way. But I’m still very interested in opinions that differ from mine, because I’m by no means any kind of expert who has it all figured out. And it’s a very interesting topic to me. Relations between men and women, how they’ve changed, why certain norms have changed and others haven’t, etc. If you share your opinion, please don’t expect me to base my life on it though.
I don’t think anyone is getting upset. I and at least one other poster have noticed a tendency toward contradiction in your posts, so it becomes difficult to know what you want to discuss. I’ve had to go back and reread your posts to make sure I’m not stepping on your toes; and what I found was that your not just using your marriage as a reference point for a discussion of this topic, your consistently asking for personal advice for your marriage … at least that’s what it appears to be - so some posters are giving it to you instead of discussing what is the title of the thread.

Anyway, I don’t think you’re going to find validation for a “friendless” marriage. That, quite frankly, sounds awful. That’s not to say that you have to be “best friends”. I have friends that I don’t see or talk to very much … but they are not my spouse. I really actually have no idea what you mean by a friendless marriage anyway … does it mean you dislike each other, or you can’t get along so you have to be separate, ???

People here would love to help - but our culture, expectations, societies, laws, etc… have all changed. People get married for different reasons now than they did 500 years ago - that’s already been said here. If you want to be in a “standoffish” ( I have no idea what you mean by that either) marriage then fine … do whatever works for you. But things can change, marriages go through ups and downs - people grow and mature, etc…
 
I do see the difference that you are talking about and think it’s a very interesting question. I may have to think about it some more and come back to it. 🙂 Just off the top of my head, though, I wonder if part of it has to do with fact of women entering the workforce and no longer needing to rely on a husband for a living. In a world where virtually all women had to marry or else face the bleak prospect of being an old maid dependent on the charity of relatives, many (or perhaps most) women did not have the luxury of being able to be extremely picky in their choice of a husband. You had a limited period of time from about age 18-25 (give or take a few years, depending on which culture and era we are talking about), to make a choice that would almost certainly be final for the rest of your life. If you were neither wealthy nor pretty, your options were even fewer, and you might be lucky to receive even one offer of marriage, an offer that would not necessarily be from a man you love (think of poor Charlotte Lucas in Pride and Prejudice). Marrying for love was an ideal to strive for, but many chose or were forced by circumstances to marry for more practical considerations.

All that to say that people in eras past, even those who married for love, did not enter marriage expecting a soulmate, or even a “best friend.” You entered marriage hoping that it would increase your happiness, comfort, and stability, and expecting to start a family, but not expecting your spouse to fulfill all your emotional needs. I wonder if the “soulmate” view developed (in part) due to 1) women gaining financial independence and therefore becoming more at leisure to marry for love and also 2) due to the concepts of marriage and family becoming increasingly separated (i.e. children viewed as optional or even undesirable and not necessarily connected with marriage). If starting a family together is no longer a primary purpose of marriage and if social and financial security are no longer tied to marriage, then the romantic love/best friends aspect is seen as more crucial or central.
English Teacher, you hit the nail on the head! You understand exactly what I mean by “more distant” marriage, which is difficult for me to describe and impossible to imagine for so many. Most of the examples I find are fictional (like Pride and Prejudice) but I’m not convinced that makes them less “real” on many levels. I think those fictional stories were based on the reality of the time.

Women entering the workforce sounds like an obvious contributing factor I hadn’t thought of. I identify myself with your description of the woman of the past. Although I had the opportunity for a career and to marry at my leisure, I did not feel called to do so. I think that may be part of the reason I’m wanting a return to that old way for myself, because I don’t work outside the home and that’s my point of view on life. Others may call it a loveless marriage because they have no children and the woman supports herself financially, which leaves nothing really for the marriage. I don’t have an opinion on what others should do, as their circumstances and dispositions are different.

I wonder which came first - separating children from marriage or marrying for love. That is such an interesting dynamic I also had not considered before. Whichever caused the other, I think it’s safe to say that children are only increasingly viewed as optional “accessories” to life. Even whether to have children/how many is now so often decided based on personal fulfilment, rather than being taken for granted as in the past.

That’s part of the reason I prefer the old way, because honestly there’s something in “marrying for love” that makes me sick. I realize this goes against my nature as a woman, who’s supposed to go for chick flicks. It just seems so superficial to me and in my view it totally undermines the actual purposes of marriage. Although at first I halfheartedly bought into it, I’m seeing after a few years experience that the “old way” is not only more practical but also more peaceful and satisfying relationally.

I think marrying for love should still be an ideal to strive for… provided all the practical considerations are in place first. But I guess that’s not really marrying for love, then, is it? It’s marrying someone for practical reasons and a happy coincidence is that you feel like best friends. I find it so ironic that the same Christians who talk about love as a choice and an action rather than a feeling, can also totally condemn marriage to someone who isn’t your soulmate.

When I got married, my estranged sister remarked, “I know you don’t love him, you just wanted children.” This surprised and confused me at the time but I’ve come to recognize it as the first disapproval directed at me of my kind of marriage in favor of a Soulmate Marriage. I have since encountered the same disapproval from countless others, which has caused me so much anguish for several years.

I constantly felt like a failure because my husband and I had not achieved the “true” meaning of marriage - deep friendship. For every little inconsistency between our marriage and the Soulmate Marriage, I sought advice and was counseled that something was deeply wrong and we needed therapy to fix it. After jumping through every proposed hoop, I have found my only solace in realizing and accepting that friendship is not a foundation in our marriage. It’s a fringe benefit when we get to feel the warm glow of oneness. It’s comforting to hear someone acknowledge that for decades or centuries or mellinia, this was actually the norm.

If we call the first type a Soulmate Marriage - what would the second type be called? Maybe I can find more resources and support if I know what to look for.
 
I have what I call a practical marriage.
I married for love (twice) but that infatuation eventually fades, and we don’t live in Hollywood movies. So you have to replace it with something, and I think that’s respect.

My first marriage ended because of abuse.
The second is still going strong after 5 kids and 23 years. I’m my husband’s caretaker medically, because he’s disabled and can’t deal with medications, dressing changes, and doctor appointments. When it gets really difficult I look at the crucifix on the wall and remind Christ that I"m doing it for him.

But my husband is a nice guy. We have little in common except adventure movies, which we sometimes watch together. (Chuck Norris, anyone?) He plays pool with his friends, I go to Bible studies and pursue my hobbies. We take care of kids and grandkids together.

But the main thing is we treat each other with respect, and have done so from the beginning, most of the time.
The soulmate type of marriage is not realistic. And being friends is nice, but I’m not sure what that means. Being able to play cards together? Enjoying movies or dinner out occasionally? Guys don’t generally enjoy talking about deep emotional things, so why push it?
Respect, that’s the key.
I hope that helps a little.

.
 
I have what I call a practical marriage.
I married for love (twice) but that infatuation eventually fades, and we don’t live in Hollywood movies. So you have to replace it with something, and I think that’s respect.

My first marriage ended because of abuse.
The second is still going strong after 5 kids and 23 years. I’m my husband’s caretaker medically, because he’s disabled and can’t deal with medications, dressing changes, and doctor appointments. When it gets really difficult I look at the crucifix on the wall and remind Christ that I"m doing it for him.

But my husband is a nice guy. We have little in common except adventure movies, which we sometimes watch together. (Chuck Norris, anyone?) He plays pool with his friends, I go to Bible studies and pursue my hobbies. We take care of kids and grandkids together.

But the main thing is we treat each other with respect, and have done so from the beginning, most of the time.
The soulmate type of marriage is not realistic. And being friends is nice, but I’m not sure what that means. Being able to play cards together? Enjoying movies or dinner out occasionally? Guys don’t generally enjoy talking about deep emotional things, so why push it?
Respect, that’s the key.
I hope that helps a little.

.
Not sure I agree with what you’re saying here. It’s an untrue stereotype that guys don’t like talking about emotional issues. Sure, many guys don’t but quite a lot do. If I can’t talk to my wife about my emotions, who can I talk to. Also, I wouldn’t say the soulmate marriage is unrealistic, perhaps rare, but it happens from time to time. I wouldn’t say my parents are “soulmates” or “friends” in the strict sense. But I certainly feel that my wife is my friend, if not my soulmate.
To me, friendship in marriage means that both of us always have each others back and that we are always there for the other. That we try to always talk to each other. And that we can have a laugh together.
 
Feel free to take comments with a grain of salt, as I’m not married, but as it seems not everyone is familiar with Pride and Prejudice. I am a big “Austenite” and I certainly do NOT think she meant to portray the “practical” Charlotte’s marriage to the buffoonish Mr. Collins as obviously superior to “love marriage”. Quite the contrary. It was meant to be a *negative * commentary on society, that a woman of the era had so few options. Elizabeth Bennett, the heroine, is horrified by it, and even her Pollyannish sister Jane can only say that she hopes that Charlotte feels “something like respect and esteem for our cousin”.

Not that Austen’s work supports marrying for mere infatuation, note the Bennetts actually DID marry out of this and turned out to be very incompatible. Most of her heroines make matches that include love, but are also make sense practically. It also seems she became more “liberal” for lack of a better word as her writing career progressed. Sense and Sensibility, Pride and Prejudice, Emma; in all these books, the heroines marry men who’d be considered pragmatic matches but certainly there is love there as well. But Persuasion involves a woman who earlier refused an “imprudent” match and later regrets it; and the heroine of Mansfield Park loves who she does, for reasons that have nothing to do with pragmatic considerations (otherwise she’d have married the other guy who offered her financial security instead of defying everyone who pushed her to marry him).

So, I certainly don’t get the idea that she thought along the lines of “romantic love is an illusion, it’s just infatuation, doesn’t really exist or last, and people should choose marriage partners for practical considerations first and foremost”. Indeed, she herself made the opposite choice than that of Charlotte Lucas Collins. She refused a marriage proposal that was essentially her last chance to escape being a “spinster”.

But even if Austen meant to portray the Collins marriage positively, she was writing in a society where men and women had very different “spheres” in general and rarely interacted with each other outside somewhat artificial social venues such as a ball. That’s certainly NOT the case in modern society.

I also think it is a false dichotomy to suggest there are only two types of marriage, a “Soulmate marriage” where the couple fulfills 90-100% of emotional needs for one another, or a cold “Practical marriage” where the couple functions essentially as business partners with sexual benefits, that respect each other, but that’s it.

I think there is also a big difference between the concept of “Soulmates” and the concept of “best friends”. I think it’s unrealistic to expect a spouse to meet all of one’s emotional needs. I can also think of prior CAF topics that asked “is your spouse your best friend” and while most answered affirmatively, a sizeable minority did not. But that didn’t mean the spouses weren’t friends at all.

However, I’m not sure if “failure” to have a “best friend” type relationship means the only alternative is to embrace a “practical” business partner type relationship. I also smell some “sour grapes” here as well.
 
I think the best marriages, regardless of type, are when the spouses are in general agreement about what it should look like and both work together to make that happen. When they have opposing views about it, or one does all/most of the heavy lifting (in terms of emotional connection and relationship building, not necessarily who does the most day-to-day practical work of household living), it’s probably not going to turn out well.

(“Well” being defined as bringing both spouses closer to Heaven, not necessarily happiness or prosperity or any other earthly aspect of life.)
 
Feel free to take comments with a grain of salt, as I’m not married, but as it seems not everyone is familiar with Pride and Prejudice. I am a big “Austenite” and I certainly do NOT think she meant to portray the “practical” Charlotte’s marriage to the buffoonish Mr. Collins as obviously superior to “love marriage”. Quite the contrary. It was meant to be a *negative * commentary on society, that a woman of the era had so few options. Elizabeth Bennett, the heroine, is horrified by it, and even her Pollyannish sister Jane can only say that she hopes that Charlotte feels “something like respect and esteem for our cousin”.

Not that Austen’s work supports marrying for mere infatuation, note the Bennetts actually DID marry out of this and turned out to be very incompatible. Most of her heroines make matches that include love, but are also make sense practically. It also seems she became more “liberal” for lack of a better word as her writing career progressed. Sense and Sensibility, Pride and Prejudice, Emma; in all these books, the heroines marry men who’d be considered pragmatic matches but certainly there is love there as well. But Persuasion involves a woman who earlier refused an “imprudent” match and later regrets it; and the heroine of Mansfield Park loves who she does, for reasons that have nothing to do with pragmatic considerations (otherwise she’d have married the other guy who offered her financial security instead of defying everyone who pushed her to marry him).

So, I certainly don’t get the idea that she thought along the lines of “romantic love is an illusion, it’s just infatuation, doesn’t really exist or last, and people should choose marriage partners for practical considerations first and foremost”. Indeed, she herself made the opposite choice than that of Charlotte Lucas Collins. She refused a marriage proposal that was essentially her last chance to escape being a “spinster”.

But even if Austen meant to portray the Collins marriage positively, she was writing in a society where men and women had very different “spheres” in general and rarely interacted with each other outside somewhat artificial social venues such as a ball. That’s certainly NOT the case in modern society.

I also think it is a false dichotomy to suggest there are only two types of marriage, a “Soulmate marriage” where the couple fulfills 90-100% of emotional needs for one another, or a cold “Practical marriage” where the couple functions essentially as business partners with sexual benefits, that respect each other, but that’s it.

I think there is also a big difference between the concept of “Soulmates” and the concept of “best friends”. I think it’s unrealistic to expect a spouse to meet all of one’s emotional needs. I can also think of prior CAF topics that asked “is your spouse your best friend” and while most answered affirmatively, a sizeable minority did not. But that didn’t mean the spouses weren’t friends at all.

However, I’m not sure if “failure” to have a “best friend” type relationship means the only alternative is to embrace a “practical” business partner type relationship. I also smell some “sour grapes” here as well.
In Mansfield Park, the heroine’s parents are an example of the dangers of a romantic marriage without practicalities–the heroine’s mom goes from a wealthy home to squalor, want and endless toil because she married without an eye to the practicalities.

In fact, that’s probably where Wickham and Lydia are headed, without family to bail them out.

Jane Austen also has examples of friendly and harmonious marriages–see the Admiral and his wife from Persuasion, Elizabeth’s uncle and aunt that took her on a road trip, and probably another couple or two that I’m forgetting. The Admiral and his wife are very explicitly described as an example of a good marriage.

But you’re quite correct that Jane Austen is an advocate for marriages with both a sound material basis and a good interpersonal connection–a pretty high bar.
 
I think the best marriages, regardless of type, are when the spouses are in general agreement about what it should look like and both work together to make that happen. When they have opposing views about it, or one does all/most of the heavy lifting (in terms of emotional connection and relationship building, not necessarily who does the most day-to-day practical work of household living), it’s probably not going to turn out well.

(“Well” being defined as bringing both spouses closer to Heaven, not necessarily happiness or prosperity or any other earthly aspect of life.)
Right.
 
In Mansfield Park, the heroine’s parents are an example of the dangers of a romantic marriage without practicalities–the heroine’s mom goes from a wealthy home to squalor, want and endless toil because she married without an eye to the practicalities.

In fact, that’s probably where Wickham and Lydia are headed, without family to bail them out.
I also recall that she implies that Mrs. Price married who she did, mostly as a way to rebel against her birth family, rather than true affection for the man himself. Very close to the Lydia/Wickham situation, I wouldn’t be surprised if the young Mrs. Price had a sailor fixation, the way Lydia and Kitty had soldier fixations. On the other hand I don’t think her sisters, who apparently married solely for financial/practical reasons, come off much better.
Jane Austen also has examples of friendly and harmonious marriages–see the Admiral and his wife from Persuasion, Elizabeth’s uncle and aunt that took her on a road trip, and probably another couple or two that I’m forgetting. The Admiral and his wife are very explicitly described as an example of a good marriage.
But you’re quite correct that Jane Austen is an advocate for marriages with both a sound material basis and a good interpersonal connection–a pretty high bar.
I also think Austen found mutual respect to be a key component of successful marriage. Not only that a wife should respect her husband, but that a husband should respect his wife. That’s certainly not the case for Mr. and Mrs. Bennett. On the other hand, in all of her endgame couples, including those with significant age and class differences, the husband does respect the wife. Darcy falls for Elizabeth but certainly doesn’t respect her at the time of his first proposal, that of course is soundly rejected.

Even Mr. Knightley, presented as mostly a wise mentor figure for Emma, does wind up at least admitting that Emma would have chosen Mr. Elton a better wife than he chose for himself. Now of course that is a no-brainer considering who Mr. E does marry, but it’s something I can’t imagine him saying at the start of the novel.
 
Feel free to take comments with a grain of salt, as I’m not married, but as it seems not everyone is familiar with Pride and Prejudice. I am a big “Austenite” and I certainly do NOT think she meant to portray the “practical” Charlotte’s marriage to the buffoonish Mr. Collins as obviously superior to “love marriage”. Quite the contrary. It was meant to be a *negative * commentary on society, that a woman of the era had so few options. Elizabeth Bennett, the heroine, is horrified by it, and even her Pollyannish sister Jane can only say that she hopes that Charlotte feels “something like respect and esteem for our cousin”.
I agree with you; I did not at all intend to suggest that Austen was putting forth the Charlotte Lucas/Mr. Collins marriage as an ideal; rather (as you said) it shows the hard choices that a woman in Charlotte’s position might be forced to make. Charlotte’s marriage is a more extreme example, but I was merely intending to say that many women in that era often had to make a difficult choice and were not always able to marry purely for love. I am sure most marriages then, as many do now, fell along a spectrum – some married purely for practical considerations, others purely for love, but most marriages fell somewhere in the middle, where both affection and practical considerations played a part in the decision to wed.

Austen herself seems to believe that neither extreme is ideal but that marriage is best entered into where there is deep and lasting affection and similarity of temperament between the parties, with some consideration for material circumstances and social standing as well.
 
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