Cumorah

[ParkerD]

And those Mormons who just want to check their brains at the door have what they want.

Paul,
My comments go far deeper into the Bible as a source of insight than do yours, although that was a perceptive comment you made on the thread about the “rock”–thank you.

I assure you I have never, not once in my life, checked my brain at the door with regard to my seriousness about seeking the Lord’s will in my life, including studying and loving the Bible and having a thorough knowledge of it’s truths. I have attended church every Sunday of my life without fail, unless I was too sick to attend (perhaps six to a dozen times in my life being too sick to attend.) So we’re not talking about shallow, baseless belief or hot and cold streaks in life. We’re talking about seeking to understand God’s purposes, and indeed desiring and gaining an understanding of those purposes and that they may differ for me than for you or anyone else.

God deals with each of humankind one-to-one, at wherever they are.

If you need archeological evidence, fine–you have it. Keep it, and love it. As I wrote before more generally, it gives you exactly what you want.

 

[lax16]

I’m sure archaeologists in North America have had, and still have, plenty of opportunities to look for empirical data. It’s not as if Cumorah was the only inhabited region.

May I remind you that the intro to the Book of Mormon states:

The Book of Mormon…is a record of God’s dealings with the **ancient inhabitants of the **Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.
The crowinging event recorded in the Book of Mormon is **the personal ministry of the Lord ****Jesus Christ among the Nephites **soon after his resurrection.

This is really important - the crowning event - Jesus Christ among the Nephites.
Why wouldn’t you want to look for this?

 

[Returning_Home]

God’s message is for all! It is not some sort of exclusive club - he came for sinners!!!

Exactly; Jesus hung out with the lowlifes of his day, the prostitutes, the lepers, and the tax collectors, not clean-cut missionaries on their mountain bikes. He said that if someone was in good relation with God, there was no need for him there, thus the reason he spent his time with the spiritually poor and malnourished.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

The issue of archaeology is not something that we “need” to make us believe. Instead, Biblical archaeology grounds our faith in history. Christianity is not something that was invented in a man’s mind. Instead, we believe that God actually entered into time, and became a man on this very earth.

The Book of Mormon purports to be a record of real events in history. Therefore, it shouldn’t be surprising to us that people, whether Mormon or not, are concerned about whether there is proof that these events (that supposedly actually did happen) are historical.

If anything, finding archaeological evidence strengthens our faith, so it is amusing to see ParkerD imply otherwise, as if it is something “lesser”, especially with Mormon apologists focusing on Mesoamerica, NHM, etc.

 

[Returning_Home]

I assure you I have never, not once in my life, checked my brain at the door with regard to my seriousness about seeking the Lord’s will in my life, including studying and loving the Bible and having a thorough knowledge of it’s truths. I have attended church every Sunday of my life without fail, unless I was too sick to attend (perhaps six to a dozen times in my life being too sick to attend.) So we’re not talking about shallow, baseless belief or hot and cold streaks in life. We’re talking about seeking to understand God’s purposes, and indeed desiring and gaining an understanding of those purposes and that they may differ for me than for you or anyone else.

You’ve revealed some very telling things about yourself, Parker. First, that you’re an otherwise intelligent person who has deliberately chosen to follow a cult. Why would a person do that? There are a number of reasons, but likely because you’ve assumed that the church was telling you the truth and when you found something that didn’t make sense, you simply gave it a pass because you assumed that the church was telling you the truth, a circular argument.

And second, that you’re an active participant in your own brainwashing; you go to church every Sunday, which means at least three hours of indoctrination, Monday family night with religious overtones, monthly home teaching, your priesthood meetings, and whatever else the church has you doing for it.

Every moment you spend in the church’s service is Mormonism reinforcing itself on you, playing on your hopes and dreams, whispering in your ear the things you want to hear: the church is true, the church is true.

 

[ParkerD]

Is that because you believe we have already existed before and have earned our place in this world from our prior life? So people who have little or no faith are pre-destined to a life of no relationship with God? God’s message is for all! It is not some sort of exclusive club - he came for sinners!!!

Many, many people do not have a Bible Parker or do not know Jesus because they come from a broken situation…and they did not choose it in another life.

Why does God tell us to go and be fishers of men if it was all pre-determined?

I hate to say, but you are sounding…judgmental.

Lax16,
I don’t see why by my saying people have what they want, that is being judgmental.

“Place in this world” has nothing to do with my comment about archeological evidence. What I meant was that if people need and love archeological evidence for proving to themselves that God exists or that the Bible is true, then fine–they have what they want. God is omnipotent. That means He certainly allowed the archeological evidence to exist and be found.

I have tried to communicate that the Book of Mormon need not be regarded as having the same situation with respect to “building” someone’s “faith”. The Bible brings people to a level and allows them to grow in their knowledge of God, and if they in studying it desire more knowledge and insights, it provides the pattern to receive more knowledge and insights. Such knowledge and insights will eventually boil down to getting personal revelation through the Holy Ghost, for the individual person, like Peter received.

I don’t know how to present an analogy that won’t sound “judgmental”, but again if you’ll read 1 Corinthians 2 you may get a picture that spiritual truths are to be learned “gradually,” and that they will be learned in “hidden” ways from the “ways of the world or the wisdom of men.”

If you have the impression that LDS believe in predestination, then no, they don’t. I am supportive of the teaching of being “fishers of men.”

By the way, Christ did indeed “come for sinners”, but He also came to show a better and fuller way of life, and after the “sinner” comes to Him, then there is a whole lot of learning and growing to do. Eventually, that growth leads to the absolute necessity of having personal revelation in life, which means no amount of “indoctrination”, no amount of “hearing a preacher”, no amount of “archeological evidence”, will suffice–revealed knowledge comes by revelation and by no other way–a sure way that not one person in the world can refute against a person who really has had revelation in their life.

That’s why Christ is the Rock; we are the clay and He is the potter. He is the source for the growth that can come to a person who gets ongoing personal revelation as an active part of their life. It means a life of change and growth, week to week and year to year.

 

[MormonHero]

Cumorah is of course the topic of this thread.

Which brings us back to the question (that you seem to be ignoring with the deflections of the last few posts)-“WHY don’t they excavate?” Your original response, “Jesus told us to go and spread the Gospel, not to go and become archaeologists. (Not that there’s anything wrong with becoming an archaeologist.)” does not address that question, as we have seen.

Perhaps they don’t see how archaeology is a salvation-issue. Archaeology might be a very interesting endeavour, but it is not necessary for salvation.

 

[Holly3278]

Personally, I don’t believe that the LDS leaders know that the Book of Mormon is false. I believe that they believe it is actually true though they are sorely wrong.

And yes, the lack of evidence is rather telling. If such huge battles did actually occur, you would think there would be at least a shred of evidence but there isn’t!

 

[Returning_Home]

Perhaps they don’t see how archaeology is a salvation-issue. Archaeology might be a very interesting endeavour, but it is not necessary for salvation.

I totally agree, but you’re using the *keep-the-door-propped-open *fallacy when it comes to Mormonism, looking for even the smallest possibility that it could be right and thus keep the illusion alive.

 

[Javl]

JAVL,
Yes, but people who just need “proof” that God exists or that those Old Testament events happened, have what they need and thus have what they want and are at the level of spirituality that they have desired in their life.

The Book of Mormon is provided only for those with a desire to learn about other kinds of “proofs” than physical evidences of God and His communication to humankind. For some people, they don’t want that–they are content with what they have. Fine–they have a perfect match between their desires and what they receive, just as Jesus promised they would (“seek and ye shall find”). The Bible gives them all the truths they need and want. For them, the Book of Mormon could still be untouched and untranslated and still be buried in the ground, and Isaiah 29:18 would have no meaning to them–and they would be completely content with their knowledge of God and of His purposes in their life. That is their choice. It is not an “all-or-nothing” circumstance.

The Scriptures ( Bible ) is sufficient proof for the existence of God and of his basic plan for man. No adunct to the Bible, such as the BoM, which is spurious and superfluous, is needed or required. The LDS claim that the Bible is not correctly translated is ridiculous since much of the stories and “scripture” in the BoM parrots whatever is in the Bible to the point of plagiarism. Also the LDS consistently recite Bible passages verbatum without any correction in translation. This in itself proves that the LDS claim and the BoM are false, as is the majority of its claims.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[SirThomasMore]

Which Indian tribes are mentioned in the BoM?

did not say that indian tribes were mentioned in the BM…read what I wrote again

 

[SirThomasMore]

Which brings us back to the central question of the thread:

If the Hill Cumorah area in New York is the one and only geographical spot that the LDS church knows for sure had lots of Jaredite/Nephite/Lamanite activity and millions of people died in battle thereabouts, then WHY don’t they excavate?

They don’t have to hang around waiting for their god to stop hiding the evidence, they can dig it up for themselves. WHY DON’T THEY DO IT?

We excavate bible sites and it does not destroy anyone’s faith. In fact it gives great understanding of the historical and cultural milieu in which the events took place, increasing our bond with the ancient faithful. That is good for faith.

There is absolutely no valid excuse for the LDS not excavating the Cumorah area.

Unless, of course, their leaders already know that there is nothing to find.

exactly…I love it that Parker keeps saying God hid all evidence when no one has even tried to see if the evidence is there

 

[SirThomasMore]

JAVL,

Yes, but people who just need “proof” that God exists or that those Old Testament events happened, have what they need and thus have what they want and are at the level of spirituality that they have desired in their life.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Jesus told us to go and spread the Gospel, not to go and become archaeologists. (Not that there’s anything wrong with becoming an archaeologist.)

Think how much the Gospel could be spread if you actually found evidence to support your outrageous claims in the BM?

 

[SirThomasMore]

Jesus told us to go and spread the Gospel, not to go and become archaeologists. (Not that there’s anything wrong with becoming an archaeologist.)

Jesus said go spread the gospel, not to go put on pageants…

 

[SirThomasMore]

I’m sure archaeologists in North America have had, and still have, plenty of opportunities to look for empirical data. It’s not as if Cumorah was the only inhabited region.

RED HERRING! The difference is, while everything else in the BM is vague as to location, your “prophets” have declared that Cumorah was the place where millions died in great battles. Stop dodging.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Paul,
My comments go far deeper into the Bible as a source of insight than do yours, although that was a perceptive comment you made on the thread about the “rock”–thank you.

I assure you I have never, not once in my life, checked my brain at the door with regard to my seriousness about seeking the Lord’s will in my life, including studying and loving the Bible and having a thorough knowledge of it’s truths. I have attended church every Sunday of my life without fail, unless I was too sick to attend (perhaps six to a dozen times in my life being too sick to attend.) So we’re not talking about shallow, baseless belief or hot and cold streaks in life. We’re talking about seeking to understand God’s purposes, and indeed desiring and gaining an understanding of those purposes and that they may differ for me than for you or anyone else.

God deals with each of humankind one-to-one, at wherever they are.

If you need archeological evidence, fine–you have it. Keep it, and love it. As I wrote before more generally, it gives you exactly what you want.

typical LDS head-in-the-sand routine. We can see archelogical evidence of the Bible, but not a lick of it for the BM, so suddenly we NEED the evidence? We do not need it Parker. But the lack of ANY of it proves you DO check your brain at the door

 

[SirThomasMore]

Perhaps they don’t see how archaeology is a salvation-issue. Archaeology might be a very interesting endeavour, but it is not necessary for salvation.

then why has the CoLDS spent so much excavating in other parts of the world?

 

[ParkerD]

As aggressive as Mormons are with their missionary program, there is no way in heck they would not use DNA and archaeology to promote their efforts. If it would boost converts and the proof was there, the LDS church would be putting billions into excavating and DNA tracing instead of a shopping district across from the Salt Lake Temple.

Lax16,
Evidently you haven’t paid much attention to 1 Corinthians 2 which the LDS apostles often quote. Why in the world you would think they would want people to join the LDS church with a person’s “evidence” for joining based on either DNA or archeology, when Paul says the “wisdom of men” is contrary to gaining revealed knowledge, is beyond me other than your unfamiliarity with the either 1 Corinthians 2 or with what it teaches about the essence of revealed knowledge.

What you seem to fail to understand about the buildings being built near the LDS Salt Lake Temple is that those buildings will be (and are) “self-sustaining” as an investment, meaning the resources used to build them were funded by capital investment funds generated from prior investments (not from LDS members tithing), and those buildings are an investment for a future revenue stream, with projections for that revenue stream that were studied in detail before the decisions were made relating to making such an investment. (This is how a good growing economy works–businesses become willing to invest when they project a revenue stream from their investment. A robust economy thrives in that kind of environment. A stagnant economy happens when businesses pull their resources because they see no long-term benefit from investing.)

If “new members” came into the LDS church from archeological “proof” or from DNA “proof”, they might last six months to a year in the church, and would fall away when they found out that they had joined an organization that has none of the bells and whistles of physical evidence to keep going back to, but instead expects a person to “build their house of testimony and faith” on revealed knowledge and a personal, intimate, ongoing relationship with the Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[ParkerD]

Sorry Parker, but “cursing the land” is a weak excuse and does not hold water. Our God “cursed the land” of Sodom and Gommorah ( Gen 19:24-29 ) by utterly destroying them, and yet archaeology has discovered that these were actual cities that were totally destroyed by some cataclysmic event.

Shalom Aleichem

Javl,
Since you brought up Genesis 19, I assume you have pondered the meaning of verse 17 with respect to how Lot’s wife lost her life (that she lingered and looked back).

“Looking back” reminds me of the Savior’s teaching that those who follow Him should not “look back” when they have put their hand to the plow. It does them no good to “look back”. It hinders their progress.

It also reminds me that Lot’s wife probably was looking back to see what was going to happen–to see physical evidence that God had really spoken to Abraham and warned Lot to flee and to not look back. The volcano eruption spewed brimstone onto her person, and she died.

If there is not a message there about not looking for physical evidence that God communicates to humankind and they ought to look for and pay attention to those messages (including seeking revealed knowledge), then that would be because the person is not looking to learn from the Bible and the experiences recorded therein.

Have a good day.