Cumorah

[ParkerD]

Like I said, I have just finished a book on the life of Sacagawea. There is loads of information in that little book about various Indian tribes. The tribes did not number in the hundereds of thousands or the millions!

Every single trible in America??? Parker, we are talking about a huge civilization, not a tribe!!!

All I care about is North America because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints explained that this is where the battles took place. I for one will not listen to these other “possible locations” because I saw the information from the LDS church myself. As a thinking individual, I can determine that the church has had a very definite teaching as to the location. New York. America (Columbus’ America).

1. So, millions of people show up for a battle…did they die off within two days or did they need to eat, drink and sleep somewhere for a while? 2) They were tent dwellers? 3) But they forged metals into millions of swords and shields? 4) I thought tent dwellers were wanderers? 5) How could they wander after food and have time to make all of the necessary weaponry?
2. So these people of the same “tribe” lived apart but came together to fight this battle?
3. How come the other Native American tribes that were in living in North America at the time do not speak of the BoM peoples?

If Jesus appeared to the Natives, word would have spread throughout the tribes.

Does anybody know how many people were living in North America at the time of the BoM?

Lax16,
One can read about

"before Columbus, Dobyns calculated, the Western Hemisphere held ninety to 112 million people. Another way of saying this is that in 1491 more people lived in the Americas than in Europe.

His argument was simple but horrific. It is well known that Native Americans had no experience with many European diseases and were therefore immunologically unprepared—“virgin soil,” in the metaphor of epidemiologists. What Dobyns realized was that such diseases could have swept from the coastlines initially visited by Europeans to inland areas controlled by Indians who had never seen a white person. The first whites to explore many parts of the Americas may therefore have encountered places that were already depopulated. Indeed, Dobyns argued, they must have done so.

Peru was one example, the Pacific Northwest another. In 1792 the British navigator George Vancouver led the first European expedition to survey Puget Sound. He found a vast charnel house: human remains “promiscuously scattered about the beach, in great numbers.” Smallpox, Vancouver’s crew discovered, had preceded them. Its few survivors, second lieutenant Peter Puget noted, were “most terribly pitted … indeed many have lost their Eyes.” In Pox Americana, (2001), Elizabeth Fenn, a historian at George Washington University, contends that the disaster on the northwest coast was but a small part of a continental pandemic that erupted near Boston in 1774 and cut down Indians from Mexico to Alaska.

Source:
cogweb.ucla.edu/Chumash/Population.html

or, another source with other reference sources:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

As to answers to your questions:

1. Died within two days.
2. many were.
3. No–the use of the words “swords” and “spears” and “shields” does not have to mean those were made of metallic material.
4. Very good point.
5. They scavenged for weapons, plus had spent years in continuous battles so they had weapons that had been made earlier.
6. That’s exactly how the scene is described, yes.
7. What are you thinking they are going to say? “Some ancestors had great battles”? “Some ancestors came from across the water”? “Some ancestors believed in a Supreme Being”? Those kinds of ancestral stories can be found. Is it proof of the Book of Mormon? No. Is it disproof? No.

Jesus appeared to 2,500 people in about 34 AD. That does not mean millions of people living on the continent are going to know about that. He appeared only to that small group.

These people lived separately from other population groups, although likely there were interactions among other population groups, particularly as the Lamanite numbers were decimated as prophesied. They nearly became “extinct” as to an existing population, based on the prophesies in the Book of Mormon.

 

[LongJourney]

I see the death toll at Cumorah, the holocaust of multiple millions, in the BoM, as a literary vehicle. It illustrates the tragedy of the similar, although unintentional, death toll in the epidemics which proceeded the white invasion. So, Parker, part of your post is on point. The rest is way off-point. Hang on, I am going to pick up something Spalding wrote.

 

[StevieD]

The lack of archaelogical evidence for the BoM was explained to me by a Mormon - apparently God removed all the evidence to test the faith of the true believers! And he claimed to believe that. You can do nothing in the face of such determination to believe a lie.
I live in the UK and almost every time someone digs the foundations for a road or a new building, some ancient artefacts are found. Our museums are bursting with all kinds of things from numerous races, invasions, kingdoms, eras. No gaps, nothing missing.
The LDS excuses are so lame even they can’t really believe them. I recall the excitement in LDS circles when the implications of DNA became apparent. It seems that the scientists at BYU just couldn’t wait to prove the ancestry of the native Americans and then … well, it all went very quiet until they invented their explanations/excuses of course as they always will (these guys get paid for their ‘inventions’ just like real scientists).

 

[SirThomasMore]

Campeador,

You asked for honesty. Here you go as to the passage in Galatians:

No…we are saying that a place where TWO great battles were fought and where MILLIONS died, there would be remians. Stop the red herring arguments

 

[LongJourney]

Every man at last attempted to make his escape, but wherever they rushed forward in any direction, they met the deady spears of the Keatucks. It is impossible to describe the horror of the bloody scene, for even humanity recoils at beholding. Humanity sympathy & compassion must drop a tear at beholding the uproar & confusion, the distress & anguish, the blood <fe carnage of so many thousand brave warriors, whose great isfortune was to have a coward for their commander who were reduced to this situation by the cowardice & & nigardly & avaricious disposition of their commander But only three thousand made their escape. As for Ulipoon he was mortally wounded & lay prostrate on the field After the slaughter was ended, in passing over the field of the Slain Hamack beheld this illfated prince an object truly pitiable to behold. In the agonies of death & wreathing under the most acute pains he explaims **Alas my wretched situation. It was avarice, cursed avarice which induced me to enagge in this horrid war & now my the mischief and cruelties I intended as a means to acquire wealth & agrandizement are justly turned upon my own head. **He spoke & deeply groaning he breathes no more The galant Hamack droped a tear & feeling no enmity toward the lifeless remains of those who had been his enimies he ordered three hundred men to bury remain on the ground & commit their bodies to the Dust. (Spalding, Manuscript Story, p. 145-146)

Compare this to Coriantumr’s grief at the death toll of Cumorah.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Men, women, children–everyone were killed or joined the opposing force.

The Cumorah area was not stated to have been anywhere near where they lived. They gathered there for the battle, but came from locations far away from there based on reading the description of events. They lived in small villages, mostly in wood dwellings or tents and some few using “cement” (which could mean “adobe”).

 

[SirThomasMore]

Since Parker keeps dodging this:

Parker, you ALWAYS dodge this question…we have AFFIDAVITS (or testimonies, if you will) from Spaulding family and friends who have SWORN that the Book of Mormon is almost exactly like the Spaulding Book that was missing. Why should we just discount their sworn testimonies? What proof do you have against them or their character that would make their sworn testimonies invalid?

 

[PaulDupre]

Steel, iron, brass, copper, coins, weapons, chariots, wheels, linen, silk, horses, cement…

…and flax, wheat and barley. None of these existed in the Americas until they were brought by the Spanish after 1492.

Oh, and don’t forget the elephants!

 

[PaulDupre]

They lived in small villages, mostly in wood dwellings or tents and some few using “cement” (which could mean “adobe”).

Parker, why do you keep trying to foist this lie on these people? I will not let you get away with it. The Book of Mormon clearly describes many great cities of the Nephites and the Lamanites:

18 And it came to pass that because of so much contention and so much difficulty in the government, that they had not kept sufficient guards in the land of Zarahemla; for they had supposed that the Lamanites durst not come into the heart of their lands to attack that great city Zarahemla.

• Heleman 1:18

14 And **many great and notable cities **were sunk, and many were burned, and many were shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were slain, and the places were left desolate.
15 And there were some cities which remained; but the damage thereof was exceedingly great, and there were many in them who were slain.

• 3 Nephi 8:14-15

25 And in another place they were heard to cry and mourn, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and had not killed and stoned the prophets, and cast them out; then would our mothers and our fair daughters, and our children have been spared, and not have been buried up in that great city Moronihah. And thus were the howlings of the people great and terrible.

• 3 Nephi 8:25

3 Behold, **that great city Zarahemla **have I burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.
4 And behold, **that great city Moroni **have I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.
5 And behold, **that great city Moronihah **have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

-3 Nephi 9:3-5

9 And thus ended the eleventh year of the judges, the Lamanites having been driven out of the land, and the people of Ammonihah were destroyed; yea, every living soul of the Ammonihahites was destroyed, and also their great city, which they said God could not destroy, because of its greatness.

• Alma 16:9

20 And** they built a great city **by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land.

• Ether 10:20

22 And for this cause wo shall come unto you except ye shall repent. For if ye will not repent, behold, this great city, and also all those great cities which are round about, which are in the land of our possession, shall be taken away that ye shall have no place in them; for behold, the Lord will not grant unto you strength, as he has hitherto done, to withstand against your enemies.

-Heleman 7:22

1 And again, I, Alma, having been commanded of God that I should take Amulek and go forth and preach again unto this people, or the people who were in the city of Ammonihah, it came to pass as I began to preach unto them, they began to contend with me, saying:
• • •
4 And they said also: We will not believe thy words if thou shouldst prophesy that this great city should be destroyed in one day.

• Alma 9:1,4

2 Now the Lamanites and the Amalekites and the people of Amulon had built a great city, which was called Jerusalem.

• Alma 21:2

5 Therefore they did cry unto the people, saying: Why do you suffer this man to revile against us? For behold he doth condemn all this people, even unto destruction; yea, and also that these **our great cities **shall be taken from us, that we shall have no place in them.
6 And now we know that this is impossible, for behold, we are powerful, and our cities great, therefore our enemies can have no power over us.

• Heleman 8:5-6

Small villages, eh? Wood huts and tents, eh? The BoM describes a huge highly technological civilization. It would have left many artifacts.

 

[campeador]

I live in the UK and almost every time someone digs the foundations for a road or a new building, some ancient artefacts are found. Our museums are bursting with all kinds of things from numerous races, invasions, kingdoms, eras. No gaps, nothing missing.

I remember hearing about this one: Largest ever hoard of Anglo-Saxon gold found in Staffordshire

Could you imagine such a find associated with the Mormons? It would bring millions of new converts overnight. Their Temples would be overflowing.

It is in the best interest of the LDS Church to dig, yet they do not.

 

[PaulDupre]

I remember hearing about this one: Largest ever hoard of Anglo-Saxon gold found in Staffordshire

Could you imagine such a find associated with the Mormons? It would bring millions of new converts overnight. Their Temples would be overflowing.

It is in the best interest of the LDS Church to dig, yet they do not.

It is only in the best interest of the LDS church if there is something to be found.

The LDS leadership knows full well that there is nothing to be found, and that is why they don’t dig.

It is only the poor deluded members that keep believing the lie, and making up their own, to defend the indefensible.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

I notice that BYU has archaeology and anthropology programs. Do they do anything (or have they) related to Book of Mormon archaeology?

 

[ParkerD]

Josh. 10: 2, 20
2 That they feared greatly, because Gibeon was a great city, as one of the royal cities, and because it was greater than Ai, and all the men thereof were mighty.
• • •
20 And it came to pass, when Joshua and the children of Israel had made an end of slaying them with a very great slaughter, till they were consumed, that the rest which remained of them entered into fenced cities.

.
Jonah 3: 2-3
2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days’ journey.

Rev. 11: 8, 13
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev. 16: 19
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Gen. 10: 12
12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.
Num. 13: 28
28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
Deut. 1: 28
28 Whither shall we go up? our brethren have discouraged our heart, saying, The people is greater and taller than we; the cities are great and walled up to heaven; and moreover we have seen the sons of the Anakims there.

1 Kgs. 4: 13
13 The son of Geber, in Ramoth-gilead; to him pertained the towns of Jair the son of Manasseh, which are in Gilead; to him also pertained the region of Argob, which is in Bashan, threescore great cities with walls and brasen bars:

Jer. 22: 8
8 And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, Wherefore hath the Lord done thus unto this great city?

So how about all those “great cities” also?

A “great city” could mean ten thousand people. A “great multitude” could mean 2,500 people.

Alma 56: 28
28 And also there were sent two thousand men unto us from the land of Zarahemla. And thus we were prepared with ten thousand men, and provisions for them, and also for their wives and their children.
Alma 60: 22
22 Yea, will ye sit in idleness while ye are surrounded with thousands of those, yea, and tens of thousands, who do also sit in idleness, while there are thousands round about in the borders of the land who are falling by the sword, yea, wounded and bleeding?

3 Ne. 3: 22
22 And it came to pass in the *seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies.

Note that this last verse is about a gathering of the people into one place for their protection and for being able to survive while not allowing the Gadianton robbers to steal food from them. So they had gathered from many “cities” which would be called “great cities” in the language of the Book of Mormon (and the language of the Bible), yet we are talking “tens of thousands” from many cities, not just one city.

 

[Ahimsa]

…and flax, wheat and barley. None of these existed in the Americas until they were brought by the Spanish after 1492.

Various species of barley (Hordeum genus) are native to the Americas. Same goes for flax (Linum genus). “Wheat” could refer to any number of related grasses in the tribe Triticeae, including both “wheat” (Triticum genus) and related genera and species, like Pascopyrum smithii, or “western wheatgrass”.

 

[PaulDupre]

Yes, those biblical cities were great cities. I have seen pictures of the ruins and they were very large. Some of the stones used to build them weighed over 5 tons apiece. It took a large, well-funded and technological state to build cities like those.

BTW, it took two days to walk across Nineveh. That was a great city!

But all those cities have been found. No BoM city has ever been found.

It also would have taken a large, well-funded and technological state to build the Nephite and Lamanite cities.

Where is Zarahemla? Where is Bountiful? Where is Moroniah? Where are the artifacts that such a state would have left behind? Where are the temples, the synagogues, the towers, the market places, the steel mills, the barns and stables, the remains of the highways that connected one city to another?

 

[twopekinguys]

Faith does not mean throwing all reason out the door.

We need reason in order to determine truth.

Unfortunately, there are many things in mormonism that are beyond reason. But the largest one is BoM archeology, or should I say the lack of it.

 

[lax16]

Various species of barley (Hordeum genus) are native to the Americas. Same goes for flax (Linum genus). “Wheat” could refer to any number of related grasses in the tribe Triticeae, including both “wheat” (Triticum genus) and related genera and species, like Pascopyrum smithii, or “western wheatgrass”.

Ahimsa - Are you saying that these were plentiful in the America founded by Columbus in the New York area?

 

[PaulDupre]

Ahimsa,

Linen is made only from the flax species “Linum usitatissimum”. That species is not native to the Americas and did not exist there prior to 1492. There was no barley or wheat of any kind domesticated in the Americas prior to 1492.

Meadow barley, BTW, is not edible, except by some waterfowl. Western wheatgrass is only edible by cattle and horses. You cannot just go out and pick up wild grasses and turn them into bread. It does not work that way. FAIR and FARMS are deceiving you.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, those biblical cities were great cities. I have seen pictures of the ruins and they were very large. Some of the stones used to build them weighed over 5 tons apiece. It took a large, well-funded and technological state to build cities like those.

So you’ve seen pictures of the ruins of Gibeon, and Resen, and the 60 great cities of Bashan?

 

[Ahimsa]

Ahimsa - Are you saying that these were plentiful in the America founded by Columbus in the New York area?

I’m saying they are native to America.