Cumorah

[PaulDupre]

There are videos on YouTube that attempt to address this, by saying that the ‘battle mounds’ all over New England are evidence of the bodies of the dead being burind in a hurry; the implication is that these bodies are those of people killed at Cumorah, explaining the reason that nothing has ever been found there.

That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard yet.

The Book of Mormon reports that the bodies of the 230,000 slain Nephites were left unburied (Mormon 6:15). I find it amazing that most of the people trying hardest to defend the BoM seem never to have read it. They keep offering theories and excuses that directly contradict the text.

Did these folks think that the Lamanites bothered to bury the 230,000 Nephite soldiers they had just visciously slaughtered, when the BoM itself plainly states that they did not?

Wow. Desperate and pathetic.

 

[lax16]

So why should it be odd that a battle mentioned in a book that has been hidden away for over 1200 years, that took place somewhere in either North or South America, might be difficult to find?

It appears so.

from Ohio State University - Archaeology Education
isthmia.osu.edu/arched/excavation.html

**Locating Sites **

**The visible remains of the ancient past do not normally lie exposed on hilltops or in the **open desert. The Parthenon in Athens and the Egyptian pyramids are the exceptions and not the norm (Figure 8.1). **More commonly, archaeological sites are **buried beneath the surface and may be partially or totally invisible to the eye. How then do archaeologists even locate sites given such a situation? In the olden days of classical archaeology, explorers used ancient literary references to place names as guides in locating lost cities. For example, Heinrich Schliemann relied on literary references from Homer, his own hunches, and a little luck to find the ancient cities of Troy and Mycenae. In addition, many ancient places (for example, Athens, Mycenae, Sparta) have kept their ancient names unto the present, making it clear where - in a general sense - the ancient places were.

Apart from this traditional method, however, **archaeologists today use a variety of heuristic **tools in locating sites. **Systematic surface survey **(discussed in the next section) **reveals the variety of materials present across a region, provides **information about what activities may have taken place there over time, and suggests the different cultural components represented. Artifact scatter patterns reflect the location of subsurface structures and are used to guide archaeological excavation. **When structures are wholly invisible on the surface, researchers can employ ****the recent advances in archaeological technique to locate sites. ****Remote ****sensing, which includes aerial photography and satellite imagery of an area, may accentuate subtle differences in landscape that are outside the spectrum of visible light, thereby suggesting subsurface buildings and features **(Figure 8.2). A dark soil stain on an aerial photograph may indicate the rich organic material of an ancient trash midden. Because the state of vegetation depends on soil fertility, abnormal crop marks may suggest underground walls, ditches, and roads. Slight nuances in shadow may point to elevation differences and ancient structures. Computers are now used to detect these subtle differences. Archaeologists can examine the pixel shapes and forms of known structures (e.g., temples) on digitized photographs and try to relate these to similar spectral emissions on the photograph of the survey area. Other projects have utilized **geophysical prospecting devices **to reveal more about the use of the area. A team may use **resistivity meters to discover the soil’s resistance to electrical current **and **magnetometers to detect variation in the magnetic properties **of the soil. These tools reveal subsurface soil anomalies which often represent ancient features such as walls and trash middens. **Techniques are now so sophisticated that if the buried ****structure is well preserved, a team might be able to create a reliable plan of the invisible **feature. If an excavation phase follows, this will certainly help guide the placement of test trenches and excavation grid.

These advances, along with continual chance discoveries through modern construction, ensure that there is never a shortage of researchable sites and little need to “go looking” for cities, treasures, and pretty things. Additionally, **modern archaeologists seldom excavate sites to find what is there. **More often than not, the research questions and objectives guide the choice of what and where to excavate.

 

[campeador]

Did these folks think that the Lamanites bothered to bury the 230,000 Nephite soldiers they had just visciously slaughtered, when the BoM itself plainly states that they did not?

Wow. Desperate and pathetic.

Mormon 6:15 :
“…and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth.”

It actually sounds like an archeologists dream.

 

[lax16]

Catholic20064,
You might be interested in the following link to an interesting article about some recent archeological finds in Maryland of the ancient inhabitants there:

americanarchaeologist.com/archives/749

Have a good evening.

Parker - Did you actually read this? The findings consist of:

pottery
tools made of stone and bone
wigwam made from saplings
shark’s teeth
shells from beach
copper beads
green jasper

All things that would be found in that region! This is absolutely discrediting that the BoM people would have lived in the region with weapons of metal, homes of cement, etc etc !

Why did you post this???

 

[lax16]

Nobody outside Mormonism SHOULD.

Isn’t salvation for everyone? Shouldn’t Jesus’ message be for all?

LDS archeologists should avoid doing so, as well. I do not get giddy about archeological finds and attempt to use them to prove that the BoM is thus ‘proven.’

**I sure do! Who wouldn’t get giddy about an ancient church with the name Jesus Christ on a mosaic on the floor, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Olviedo Cloth, the Shroud of Turin, the catacombs… Why are Mormons (maybe not you) giddy about their ancestry? **

However, you are backpedaling. It doesn’t matter that there is 'plenty of evidence to the existence of Ashoka." for one thing, there wouldn’t be if all historical records of that era ere destroyed, as other groups have been, and it does not matter if there have been a lot of battles whose precise location has been located through modern archeology. If there remain well known battles that have NOT been so found (like Kalinga, for instance) when there is all the continuous written historical record one could ask for to help, then it is unfair and illogical for anybody to decide that because the BoM battles have not been found, that this 'lack of proof" means 'proof of lack."

**But these other groups have no bearing on man’s salvation! The Book of Mormon peoples are of the utmost importance, are they not? To worry about every little tribe wouldn’t make sense because they are not part of God’s plan.
From the introduction of the Book of Mormon:

• “The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the ***doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come.”

All it means is that…they haven’t been found.

Because no one is looking for them.

Along with a bunch of other such battlefields that have also not been found. The fact that some HAVE is encouraging. Perhaps, then, the BoM battlefields will also be found.

the problem, of course, is that even if they are, our critics will not accept the findings as such. They can’t. As long as there is even the smallest possibility that those fields or that archeology is NOT Book of Mormon based, non-Mormons will have to go with that possibility. To do otherwise would be…problematic.

I am not a critic because I don’t want to believe, but because there is way too much proof against it. Why would it be problematic? Catholics are free to discuss, read, and study all of it! The LDS church is not providing it.

I understand it. I even think it is proper. That doesn’t mean that the bias won’t be flippin’ obvious.

All religions deal with bias.

 

[PaulDupre]

dianaiad:

So why should it be odd that a battle mentioned in a book that has been hidden away for over 1200 years, that took place somewhere in either North or South America, might be difficult to find?

But it did not take place “somewhere in either North or South America”. It took place in the area around the Hill Cumorah in what is now Fayetteville, New York. Your own prophets have declared this to be true.

Now, if the battle did not take place there, then your prophets, seers and revelators, from Joseph Smith through Ezra Taft Benson, were false prophets. Or, more likely, it just never happened at all, and they are still false prophets.

Tread carefully, Diana. You are flirting with apostacy.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker - Did you actually read this? The findings consist of:

pottery
tools made of stone and bone
wigwam made from saplings
shark’s teeth
shells from beach
copper beads
green jasper

All things that would be found in that region! This is absolutely discrediting that the BoM people would have lived in the region with weapons of metal, homes of cement, etc etc !

Why did you post this???

Yes, I did read it, and have read some of the other links at the side of the article.

I never wrote or agreed that the Nephites or Lamanites had metal weapons. I believe they had wooden weapons that they fashioned in the likeness of metal weapons. Note that the article says the wooden posts had left only the post holes–not the posts. That’s what happens to wood–it deteriorates until becoming soil again. (Surprise! That happens to buildings also.)

Why in the world you would think that because one particular group had “homes of cement” (or adobe or a limestone mixture) that every possible tribal group would have “homes of cement” is beyond me. You can think that, but the Book of Mormon says nothing of the kind. The Nephite structures were made principally of wood, for those who didn’t live in tents. The Lamanites were nomadic, and lived in tents or with no tent at all.

The article shows that one cultural remnant can be sitting right on top of another cultural remnant, as happened in this case. It also shows that just because remnant artifacts haven’t been found in a particular place, doesn’t mean there aren’t any remnant artifacts if excavation happens in the spot and is deep enough. It shows that the finds were happenstance–completely unplanned, and happened in recent years.

 

[twopekinguys]

But it did not take place “somewhere in either North or South America”. It took place in the area around the Hill Cumorah in what is now Fayetteville, New York. Your own prophets have declared this to be true.

Now, if the battle did not take place there, then your prophets, seers and revelators, from Joseph Smith through Ezra Taft Benson, were false prophets. Or, more likely, it just never happened at all, and they are still false prophets.

Tread carefully, Diana. You are flirting with apostacy.

“He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants” (JS—H 1:33–34).

If I could find this on lds.org, why can’t a mormon? (bolding mine)

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=1ba2c106dac20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

or this

And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow … from the top of the hill Cumorah, [230,000] of my people who were hewn down, …

Also from LDS. org

 

[lax16]

Yes, I did read it, and have read some of the other links at the side of the article.

I never wrote or agreed that the Nephites or Lamanites had metal weapons. I believe they had wooden weapons that they fashioned in the likeness of metal weapons. Note that the article says the wooden posts had left only the post holes–not the posts. That’s what happens to wood–it deteriorates until becoming soil again. (Surprise! That happens to buildings also.)

Why in the world you would think that because one particular group had “homes of cement” (or adobe or a limestone mixture) that every possible tribal group would have “homes of cement” is beyond me. You can think that, but the Book of Mormon says nothing of the kind. The Nephite structures were made principally of wood, for those who didn’t live in tents. The Lamanites were nomadic, and lived in tents or with no tent at all.

The article shows that one cultural remnant can be sitting right on top of another cultural remnant, as happened in this case. It also shows that just because remnant artifacts haven’t been found in a particular place, doesn’t mean there aren’t any remnant artifacts if excavation happens in the spot and is deep enough. It shows that the finds were happenstance–completely unplanned, and happened in recent years.

Hi Parker - Please cite the scriptural references from the BoM for the above examples
(weaponry, dwellings etc) so that I can respond to your post (otherwise it will take me forever to find the passages and I am sure you have them memorized!)

It is my understanding is that it is not uncommon for archaeological digs to happen this way.

thanks!

 

[RebeccaJ]

“He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants” (JS—H 1:33–34).

If I could find this on lds.org, why can’t a mormon? (bolding mine)

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=1ba2c106dac20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Yet, LDS run around looking for BoM evidence everywhere, except this continent, and their Hill Cumorah.

Freaking hilarious.

 

[twopekinguys]

Yet, LDS run around looking for BoM evidence everywhere, except this continent, and their Hill Cumorah.

Freaking hilarious.

Can you say “shell game”?

Is it here? or here? or maybe over here?

 

[lax16]

“He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants” (JS—H 1:33–34).

If I could find this on lds.org, why can’t a mormon? (bolding mine)

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=1ba2c106dac20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

and…

“**'The great and last battle, ****in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished **was on the hill Cumorah, *the same hill from which the plates were taken by *Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening.” (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1972 Journal of Discourses Vol 14, pg 331)

“We visited **the Hill Cumorah **and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampsom, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property…We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, **and that hundreds of thousands had been slain ****within sight of that hill.” **(Elder George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, p.56)

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B.H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, **definitely establish the following facts: ** That the *Hill *Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; **that it was around this hill that the armies **of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; **that it was in this that ****Mormon deposited all of the sacred records **which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgement…(President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

"Cumorah, the artificial hill of North America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. **Around that mount died **millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth…"
(The Latter-day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate, Vol. 2, No.2, p.221)

"The hill, which is known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York."(Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, chapter 14)

**“Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and ****near the Hill Cumorah **(or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York.”
(Apostle LeGrand Richards, in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, chapter 7)

and many, many more where these came from

 

[twopekinguys]

Amazing isn’t it?

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker - Please cite the scriptural references from the BoM for the above examples
(weaponry, dwellings etc) so that I can respond to your post (otherwise it will take me forever to find the passages and I am sure you have them memorized!)

It is my understanding is that it is not uncommon for archaeological digs to happen this way.

thanks!

Lax16,
It is fairly silly to think that I “have them memorized”. (I don’t–it’s not a big deal to me, at all. But I can certainly use a search tool given that lds.org has that available for all the LDS scriptures.)

Search results for “sword of steel”:

1 Ne. 4: 9
9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.
Ether 7: 9
9 Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of steel for those whom he had drawn away with him; and after he had armed them with swords he returned to the city Nehor, and gave battle unto his brother Corihor, by which means he obtained the kingdom and restored it unto his father Kib.

Search results for “breastplate of brass”:

Mosiah 8: 10
10 And behold, also, they have brought breastplates, which are large, and they are of brass and of copper, and are perfectly sound.

The passage in 1 Nephi is talking about the “sword of Laban” which was brought by Nephi from Jerusalem, and was kept as a sort of “artifact” and actually was used as an example of how to configure a sword in its shape, but in no other place does there appear in the Book of Mormon language that suggests that swords were made of steel by either the Nephites or the Lamanites, and note also that the Lamanites are said to have swords several times yet only Nephi is discussed as having brought with him the skill and knowledge of how to do metal work within the Nephite and Lamanite time frame, and taught that knowledge to his followers but not to the Lamanites since they had left as enemies and became nomadic.

The passage in Ether is talking about the Jaredites, who were an earlier group in the New World and died out around 588 BC.

Those are the only references to “sword of steel”, and the Jaredite reference occurred in about 2000 BC. So it is not a logical assumption to assume that every use of the word “sword” in the Book of Mormon is talking about a metal sword, and quite the contrary since the Lamanites are said to have swords and they had no such knowledge base among them.

The Nephites had “breastplates”, but no reference is made that those breastplates were made of metal. The Jaredite group had “breastplates” and some of those were made of “brass and copper” which stood out as something unusual enough to point out by the Mulekites who found the artifacts.

So, again, there is not the slightest indication that the battles around Cumorah used metal weapons or metal breastplates.

As far as cement dwellings, here are the search results for “cement”:

Hel. 3:3 And it came to pass in the *forty and sixth, yea, there was much contention and many dissensions; in the which there were an exceedingly great many who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land.
4 And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers.
5 Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.
6 And now no part of the land was desolate, save it were for timber; but because of the greatness of the destruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called desolate.
7 And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell.
• • •
9 And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.
• • •
11 And thus they did enable the people in the land northward that they might build many cities, both of wood and of cement.

So wood was the preferred building material, and cement was used if wood was not available, but in certain locations only which are described as being built at places “exceedingly great distance” “northward”. This could be near the Great Lakes, or who knows where.

 

[Returning_Home]

But it did not take place “somewhere in either North or South America”. It took place in the area around the Hill Cumorah in what is now Fayetteville, New York. Your own prophets have declared this to be true.

Now, if the battle did not take place there, then your prophets, seers and revelators, from Joseph Smith through Ezra Taft Benson, were false prophets. Or, more likely, it just never happened at all, and they are still false prophets.

Tread carefully, Diana. You are flirting with apostacy.

To maintain that the BOM events were in the Yucatan begs the question: why would they have travelled all that way to Hill Cumorah, which we know for a fact is in upper New York, to have a grand battle? It might make sense, a little anyway, if someone suggested that the Nephites were fleeing and the Lamanites finally caught up to them at that point. That would be mighty convenient, being caught in the shadow of the very hill that witnessed the utter destruction of the Jaredites, wouldn’t it?

Anyone know how far that would be? 3,000 miles? More?

 

[Returning_Home]

I can certainly use a search tool given that lds.org has that available for all the LDS scriptures.

1 Ne. 4: 9
9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.
Ether 7: 9
9 Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of steel for those whom he had drawn away with him; and after he had armed them with swords he returned to the city Nehor, and gave battle unto his brother Corihor, by which means he obtained the kingdom and restored it unto his father Kib.

The passage in 1 Nephi is talking about the “sword of Laban” which was brought by Nephi from Jerusalem, and was kept as a sort of “artifact” and actually was used as an example of how to configure a sword in its shape, but in no other place does there appear in the Book of Mormon language that suggests that swords were made of steel by either the Nephites or the Lamanites…

Those are the only references to “sword of steel”, and the Jaredite reference occurred in about 2000 BC.

Incorrect, those are not the only references to steel swords. Your search tool doesn’t work very well because it missed a major point:

2 Nephi 5:14 states: “And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us…”

And since Shule, many years earlier, demonstrated the ability to not only make swords but to mine the ore, smelt it, shape, and harden it, which requires a great deal of skill.

We now have two sources in the New World that were making swords, the Nephites and the Jaredites before them, so it’s likely that the Lamanites were able to take a cue and move in a similar direction.

Nephi took the steel sword of Laban and used it as an example to make more, something you should’ve caught when constructing this fallacy.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

Incorrect, those are not the only references to steel swords. Your search tool doesn’t work very well because it missed a major point:

2 Nephi 5:14 states: “And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us…”

And since Shule, many years earlier, demonstrated the ability to not only make swords but to mine the ore, smelt it, shape, and harden it, which requires a great deal of skill.

We now have two sources in the New World that were making swords, the Nephites and the Jaredites before them, so it’s likely that the Lamanites were able to take a cue and move in a similar direction.

Nephi took the steel sword of Laban and used it as an example to make more, something you should’ve caught when constructing this fallacy.

Nice. I knew someone would catch that.

 

[ParkerD]

Nice. I knew someone would catch that.

That was exactly the point I had already made–that Nephi used the sword of Laban to make “many swords” “after the manner of it”. This means he used the sword of Laban as an example of configuration. It does not say he made metal swords like the sword of Laban.

 

[Returning_Home]

That was exactly the point I had already made–that Nephi used the sword of Laban to make “many swords” “after the manner of it”. This means he used the sword of Laban as an example of configuration. It does not say he made metal swords like the sword of Laban.

And what did the Nephites use to kill the Lamanites in battle? Coarse language?

 

[LongJourney]

The Aztecs used “swords.” But they were not made of steel. They were made of wood and obsidian.
ezinearticles.com/?The-Macuahuitl—An-Aztec-Obsidian-Sword&id=3203175