Cumorah

[PaulDupre]

To date, the only Mormon “martyr” is Joseph Smith, a conman who committed adultry with other men’s wives, lied to his own wife and to the press about it, faked translations of ancient documents, swindled his own church members in a banking scandel, then ordered a newspaper’s presses to be destroyed when it published the truth about him. When Smith was arrested for his crimes, he had a gun smuggled into the jail, then had a shoot-out with the mob who came to kill him, killing two men in the shoot-out. Then he shouted the Masonic distress call “Is there no help for the widow’s son?” before jumping from a window in hopes of escape, only to be shot dead during the attempt.

This is their “martyr”?

Compare Smith with the true Christian martyrs who went willingly to their deaths rather than deny their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. These true martyrs were fed to the lions, burned at the stake and tortured to death, all the time declaring their undying faith in Jesus. Father Maximilian Kolbe willingly switched places with a young father who was to be executed in a Nazi death camp and gave his life in the hope that the young father could return to his family.

There is no comparison.

 

[dianaiad]

With all the evidence, from this thread & others, exposing the Mormon god (s) as weak and inconsistent, are there any members who have given their lives willingly for the Mormon faith as St Thomas More or St Maximillian Kolbe or Edith Stein (St Teresia Benedicta)have for the Catholic faith? & they just featured a program on EWTN re: the martyrs of Ukraine during the Communist regime; they died or suffered in the gulag rather then deny their faith.

Do you have ANY idea how insulting a question this is?

However, the answer is (and never mind the question begging…) yes. Quite a few. .

 

[dianaiad]

To date, the only Mormon “martyr” is Joseph Smith, a conman who committed adultry with other men’s wives, lied to his own wife and to the press about it, faked translations of ancient documents, swindled his own church members in a banking scandel, then ordered a newspaper’s presses to be destroyed when it published the truth about him. When Smith was arrested for his crimes, he had a gun smuggled into the jail, then had a shoot-out with the mob who came to kill him, killing two men in the shoot-out. Then he shouted the Masonic distress call “Is there no help for the widow’s son?” before jumping from a window in hopes of escape, only to be shot dead during the attempt.

This is their “martyr”?

Compare Smith with the true Christian martyrs who went willingly to their deaths rather than deny their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. These true martyrs were fed to the lions, burned at the stake and tortured to death, all the time declaring their undying faith in Jesus. Father Maximilian Kolbe willingly switched places with a young father who was to be executed in a Nazi death camp and gave his life in the hope that the young father could return to his family.

There is no comparison.

I see…and that young nine year old who was shot in the head point blank at Haun’s MIll specifically and only because he was a Mormon doesn’t count? How about the hundreds of Mormons who died as a direct result of the persecution…of the hardships of the trek west?

Are they 'martyrs?" In the sense that they gave their lives AS WELL AS their deaths for thier beliefs, why yes. They were.

We do not worship, revere or pray that they intercede for us, though. They are not holier than we, or better, or nearer to God. We don’t celebrate their name days. We don’t erect statues of them so that we can put candles in front of them. We do not revere them as you revere the Saints in Catholicism.

That does not, however, lessen their willingness to give their lives for their beliefs, and frankly, Paul, you are out of line.

 

[Returning_Home]

Do you have ANY idea how insulting a question this is?

No more than being told that we belong to the church founded by Satan and that the Bible is missing many ‘plain and precious things.’

 

[Returning_Home]

I see…and that young nine year old who was shot in the head point blank at Haun’s MIll specifically and only because he was a Mormon doesn’t count? How about the hundreds of Mormons who died as a direct result of the persecution…of the hardships of the trek west?

Are they 'martyrs?" In the sense that they gave their lives AS WELL AS their deaths for thier beliefs, why yes. They were.

That does not, however, lessen their willingness to give their lives for their beliefs, and frankly, Paul, you are out of line.

There’s absolutely no excuse for the actions of the enemies of the church back then, none whatsoever, but you’re using this to gain sympathy and thus play the victim role. No one here has ever advocated anything like this; it’s just a poor attempt to detract from the main point.

Regarding those who died while heading west or from persecution, they died in vain, martyrs for the false prophet of a false god. And that’s a shame.

 

[Javl]

Do you have ANY idea how insulting a question this is?

However, the answer is (and never mind the question begging…) yes. Quite a few. .

It may be to you, Diana. But how about the LDS insulting us with many of their statements about Catholicism?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[scipio337]

I see…

Persecution complex. More Catholics died in one year under the rule of Abd ar-Rahman II in Cordoba than the entire Mormon War.

I don’t see many people here wringing their hands or beating their chest about it.

 

[lax16]

I see…and that young nine year old who was shot in the head point blank at Haun’s MIll specifically and only because he was a Mormon doesn’t count? How about the hundreds of Mormons who died as a direct result of the persecution…of the hardships of the trek west?

Are they 'martyrs?" In the sense that they gave their lives AS WELL AS their deaths for thier beliefs, why yes. They were.

We do not worship, revere or pray that they intercede for us, though. They are not holier than we, or better, or nearer to God. We don’t celebrate their name days. We don’t erect statues of them so that we can put candles in front of them. We do not revere them as you revere the Saints in Catholicism.

That does not, however, lessen their willingness to give their lives for their beliefs, and frankly, Paul, you are out of line.

Diana - I agree that anyone who gives their life for their faith is a martyr.

I don’t necessarily agree that Mormons do not worship, revere, celebrate, or erect statutes of their martyrs, though. The Mormon handcart trek, the statue of Brigham Young (I think at This is The Place Park?), Pioneer Day parades/fireworks etc celebrating the pioneers, and almost a “worship” of missionaries (although they are still alive!), books and movies about Emma Smith and former presidents of the church…I have actually marveled at the amount of statues/movies/books about dead Mormons used to stir the hearts of Mormons!

 

[dianaiad]

It may be to you, Diana. But how about the LDS insulting us with many of their statements about Catholicism?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Excuse me? I don’t see any Mormons saying anything even remotely the same thing. Here; let me rewrite the statement:

(BIG DISCLAIMER. The following is a revised quote; substituting “Mormon” for “Catholic” and people who have died for their LDS beliefs for Catholic Saints, for illustrative purposes. It is NOT an indication of my opinion regarding those who have died for their faith in the Catholic church)

With all the evidence, from this thread & others, exposing the Catholic god as weak and inconsistent, are there any members who have given their lives willingly for the Catholic faith as the victims at Haun’s MIll, Joseph Smith, the many pioneers who gave their lives including Parley P Pratt, and some of my direct ancestors have for the Mormon faith? "

A statement like that, would quite rightly bring howls of anger down upon my head; infractions and perhaps an outright banning from the forum…and I would absolutely deserve it.

Remember. I AM LDS. I don’t happen to believe that my own faith has been disproven by anything in this thread, anymore than you believe that the…interesting…history of Catholicism has disproven the truth of its claims.

 

[dianaiad]

Persecution complex. More Catholics died in one year under the rule of Abd ar-Rahman II in Cordoba than the entire Mormon War.

I don’t see many people here wringing their hands or beating their chest about it.

You don’t see any Mormons in here telling you that they A; deserved it, B; it didn’t happen, C: revising the history to make it the fault of the Catholics who died, or D: attempting in any way to catagorize the persecution of Catholics, or any mention of it, as irrelevent because Catholics have a ‘persecution complex,’ either.

The simple reminder of facts is only uncomfortable to those who want to pretend that these things did not happen, or were somehow deserved.

 

[dianaiad]

Diana - I agree that anyone who gives their life for their faith is a martyr.

I don’t necessarily agree that Mormons do not worship, revere, celebrate, or erect statutes of their martyrs, though. The Mormon handcart trek, the statue of Brigham Young (I think at This is The Place Park?), Pioneer Day parades/fireworks etc celebrating the pioneers, and almost a “worship” of missionaries (although they are still alive!), books and movies about Emma Smith and former presidents of the church…I have actually marveled at the amount of statues/movies/books about dead Mormons used to stir the hearts of Mormons!

Catholics have a very specific idea of reverence and worship…to the point that there are different words for each level; latria, dulia, hyperdulia…

Honoring our ancestors by building memorials and remembering what they did doesn’t fit any of those. We do not, by any means, reverence these people the way Catholics reverence Saints. We do not light candles to them. We don’t ask them to intercede for us (or pray to them…)

So there is a very, very solid and thick line between a 24th of July parade where everybody dresses up in pioneer garb and reads pioneer stories to one another, and going to church, lighting and placing a candle in front of the image of a Saint, and asking him/her to pray for you.

This is not a criticism of what you do. However, if y’all insist (and rightly so) that the reverence you feel for the Saints is not the same thing you feel for Mary, and the reverence you express for either is not the worship of God the Father, then you need to realize that the statues of pioneer women in the SLC Temple grounds is not the same thing as images of Saints in a Cathedral. For us, those statues are garden ornaments. Nice to look at. Reminders of history…but nothing more.

 

[scipio337]

You don’t see any Mormons in here telling you that they A; deserved it, B; it didn’t happen, C: revising the history to make it the fault of the Catholics who died, or D: attempting in any way to catagorize the persecution of Catholics, or any mention of it, as irrelevent because Catholics have a ‘persecution complex,’ either.

The simple reminder of facts is only uncomfortable to those who want to pretend that these things did not happen, or were somehow deserved.

Sorry to call you out on that appeal to emotion. You also don’t see Catholics constantly reminding LDS of persecutions they handed out, while wholly ignoring the much broader amount they received.

I do point out the whole persecution topic to be entirely irrelevant, and a red herring to this discussion.

Now…back to the archeology, or lack thereof!

 

[lax16]

Catholics have a very specific idea of reverence and worship…to the point that there are different words for each level; latria, dulia, hyperdulia…

Honoring our ancestors by building memorials and remembering what they did doesn’t fit any of those. We do not, by any means, reverence these people the way Catholics reverence Saints. We do not light candles to them. We don’t ask them to intercede for us (or pray to them…)

So there is a very, very solid and thick line between a 24th of July parade where everybody dresses up in pioneer garb and reads pioneer stories to one another, and going to church, lighting and placing a candle in front of the image of a Saint, and asking him/her to pray for you.

This is not a criticism of what you do. However, if y’all insist (and rightly so) that the reverence you feel for the Saints is not the same thing you feel for Mary, and the reverence you express for either is not the worship of God the Father, then you need to realize that the statues of pioneer women in the SLC Temple grounds is not the same thing as images of Saints in a Cathedral. For us, those statues are garden ornaments. Nice to look at. Reminders of history…but nothing more.

Diana - I do not take your comments as criticism, nor did I mean mine as a criticism of LDS.

It is interesting to note, living in Utah, that there are some very distinct areas where Mormons do get very emotional and almost “reverent” when it comes to missionaries and pioneers. I think the difference is that while you may not be praying to the returning missionaries at the airport, they do receive a hero/rockstar homecoming and the emotions behind the pioneers and the handcart trek is…extremely emotional…and talked about…and re-lived…and portrayed in movies…and Pioneer Day is like a sacred holiday. (When I asked why my doctor’s office would be closed the day before PD, the young woman gasped and said “Don’t you know what Pioneer Day is?!”)

I realize there are major differences at who we are directing our attention to and why, but I would not say that Catholics are the only ones remembering their dead “heroes” with fond remembrance.

Also, the commercials that advertise books and movies on Emma, JS, Gordon B. Hinckley…are promoting their almost “saint like” qualities. (I don’t have cable, so I see many commercials for Deseret Book etc).

Catholics are asking for the intercession and prayers of the faithful who have gone before us (as you know) and Mormons are stirring the emotions of their members by re-living the actions of those faithful who went before them. One is not better than the other, but I am now very aware that Mormons are not “above and beyond” reminding their members about those who went before them in faith and strongly encouraging them to learn about their lives (much like we do with our saints).

Not all Catholics call on the Saints for intercession, but those who do understand their role in our lives. I would not expect a non-Catholic or a non-practicing Catholic to “get” it, although Diana, it seems you understand us very well!

btw - Pioneer Day is more than a parade - it is a state holiday. As the non-members in Utah say “it’s bigger than the 4th of July.”

Anyway, back to our discussion on Cumorah!!!

 

[Returning_Home]

Excuse me? I don’t see any Mormons saying anything even remotely the same thing.

You’re right, no Mormon has said that here, but the fact of the matter is that you don’t have to; it’s a given that to be a Mormon, you have to assume that the BOM is correct. That being the case, since the BOM clearly states that the Bible is missing many ‘plain and precious things,’ a phrase used seven times so as not to be misunderstood its position on the matter in 1 Nephi 13:26-42 and that there are only two churches: one of the Lamb and one of Satan (1 Nephi chapter 14 heading), you saying that no Mormon has actually had the gall to say such a thing openly is deceptive because it’s part of your theology and the very basis for your claims of authority.

Your claim here is spurious and fraught with hidden meaning that most Christians wouldn’t understand. That’s the reason I won’t let you run that one up the flag pole.

Remember. I AM LDS. I don’t happen to believe that my own faith has been disproven by anything in this thread.

I don’t happen to believe in China so I simply stay away from maps, globes, or books that would challenge my sincerely held belief. Up to this point, I haven’t seen any evidence of it whatsoever. And just because someone claims to be from China doesn’t mean anything.

 

[dianaiad]

Sorry to call you out on that appeal to emotion. You also don’t see Catholics constantly reminding LDS of persecutions they handed out, while wholly ignoring the much broader amount they received.

Sorry, but yes, as a matter of fact, I do. Constantly and in here. I didn’t come up with items ‘A’, ‘B,’ ‘C’ and ‘D’ out of thin air…they are, in fact, business as usual in here.

I do point out the whole persecution topic to be entirely irrelevant, and a red herring to this discussion.

Now…back to the archeology, or lack thereof!

Then…don’t bring it up, scipio.

 

[dianaiad]

Diana - I do not take your comments as criticism, nor did I mean mine as a criticism of LDS.

It is interesting to note, living in Utah, that there are some very distinct areas where Mormons do get very emotional and almost “reverent” when it comes to missionaries and pioneers. I think the difference is that while you may not be praying to the returning missionaries at the airport, they do receive a hero/rockstar homecoming and the emotions behind the pioneers and the handcart trek is…extremely emotional…and talked about…and re-lived…and portrayed in movies…and Pioneer Day is like a sacred holiday. (When I asked why my doctor’s office would be closed the day before PD, the young woman gasped and said “Don’t you know what Pioneer Day is?!”)

I realize there are major differences at who we are directing our attention to and why, but I would not say that Catholics are the only ones remembering their dead “heroes” with fond remembrance.

Also, the commercials that advertise books and movies on Emma, JS, Gordon B. Hinckley…are promoting their almost “saint like” qualities. (I don’t have cable, so I see many commercials for Deseret Book etc).

Catholics are asking for the intercession and prayers of the faithful who have gone before us (as you know) and Mormons are stirring the emotions of their members by re-living the actions of those faithful who went before them. One is not better than the other, but I am now very aware that Mormons are not “above and beyond” reminding their members about those who went before them in faith and strongly encouraging them to learn about their lives (much like we do with our saints).

Not all Catholics call on the Saints for intercession, but those who do understand their role in our lives. I would not expect a non-Catholic or a non-practicing Catholic to “get” it, although Diana, it seems you understand us very well!

btw - Pioneer Day is more than a parade - it is a state holiday. As the non-members in Utah say “it’s bigger than the 4th of July.”

Anyway, back to our discussion on Cumorah!!!

OK…I think that last comment pretty much identifies the difference: in some places it IS bigger than the Fourth of July, because, well…the USA DID kick us out and send an army after us. We overcame quite a bit of stuff from back then, and still remained (as we do today,) extremely patriotic people. Grant us our one bit of, oh…cultural pay back.

The point is, honoring our pioneer ancestors and leaders, for us, is a lot more akin to the way you honor George Washington or Abraham Lincoln, and Pioneer Day isn’t Christmas.

So, yes…I guess that’s it. It’s the difference between your reverence for a Saint…and your respect for Abraham Lincoln. It’s not simply a difference in degree, but a difference in TYPE, just as your reverence for the Saints, Mary and God is not simply a difference in degree (no matter any superficial similarities,) but a real difference in kind.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Excuse me? I don’t see any Mormons saying anything even remotely the same thing. Here; let me rewrite the statement:

(BIG DISCLAIMER. The following is a revised quote; substituting “Mormon” for “Catholic” and people who have died for their LDS beliefs for Catholic Saints, for illustrative purposes. It is NOT an indication of my opinion regarding those who have died for their faith in the Catholic church)

A statement like that, would quite rightly bring howls of anger down upon my head; infractions and perhaps an outright banning from the forum…and I would absolutely deserve it.

Remember. I AM LDS. I don’t happen to believe that my own faith has been disproven by anything in this thread, anymore than you believe that the…interesting…history of Catholicism has disproven the truth of its claims.

So? It HAS been proven that the LDS Church is false. The LDS Church, by tacit admission,. has admitted they KNOW there is NOTHING at Cumorah but a pageant

 

[SirThomasMore]

Sorry, but yes, as a matter of fact, I do. Constantly and in here. I didn’t come up with items ‘A’, ‘B,’ ‘C’ and ‘D’ out of thin air…they are, in fact, business as usual in here.

We will continue to bring up the evidence that shows the lDS Church to be a fraud… This includes our showing that LDS prophets were racists by showing their quotes. This has included our showing that they were false prophets by showing their odd teachings and positions. This has included showing that the BM is false. and etc etc

 

[SirThomasMore]

OK

…I think that last comment pretty much identifies the difference: in some places it IS bigger than the Fourth of July, because, well…the USA DID kick us out and send an army after us. We overcame quite a bit of stuff from back then, and still remained (as we do today,) extremely patriotic people. Grant us our one bit of, oh…cultural pay back.

 

[TikiTokiguy]

dianaiad;6882639:

OK

The USA did not kick you out. You ran. Your alleged prophet broke the law. He had a an army and people were afraid. But he and the mormons flaunted the law. You ran. And an army was sent AFTER BY threatened to kill everyone (and he had a good start at MMM)

After I read the Fawn Brodie book I’m under the impression the “saints” are lucky Joseph Smith did not get them all killed back then or bankrupt them straight to jail.