Cumorah

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You don’t see any Mormons in here telling you that they A; deserved it, B; it didn’t happen, C: revising the history to make it the fault of the Catholics who died, or D: attempting in any way to catagorize the persecution of Catholics, or any mention of it, as irrelevent because Catholics have a ‘persecution complex,’ either.

The simple reminder of facts is only uncomfortable to those who want to pretend that these things did not happen, or were somehow deserved.
No one here has denied that any of the unpleasant and often bloody history didn’t happen. The LDS, however, regularly do exactly that. I have a number of books (some even produced by the church) that go on and on about Smith’s ‘martyrdom’ without once mentioning his having killed two men on the way out of this world. That’s dishonest when the church clearly knows better.

You mentioned a revision of history and I had to laugh long and hard at that because the LDS have been revising their own texts from the very beginning with the BOM and Book of Commandments/Doctrines and Covenants.

Did any Mormons deserve what bad things that happened to them? Not by a long shot, but it was the natural result of Joseph Smith claiming to be prophet of God when he was nothing even close. He lied, they died.
 
I have a number of books (some even produced by the church) that go on and on about Smith’s ‘martyrdom’ without once mentioning his having killed two men on the way out of this world. That’s dishonest when the church clearly knows better.
Four were injured. Three of them, Gallagher, Wills, and Voras left the area, fearing that their injuries would betray their having been there. The fourth, Allen, was reported as having a good alibi, and sought medical aid from a Warsaw physician. Gallagher, Wills, and Voras were indicted, but apparently could not be found.

Despite other claims to the contrary, there is no evidence that JS inflicted any fatal wounds. His tiny pistol apparently misfired; he did not get all six shots out of it. So, if there was only one pistol in the room, the rest is unconfirmed legend.

There are plenty of other charges to condemn him in a postmortem trial, so I wouldn’t complain about it.

You need to research more, really. :o
 
After I read the Fawn Brodie book I’m under the impression the “saints” are lucky Joseph Smith did not get them all killed back then or bankrupt them straight to jail.
Please get the attribution right, I didn’t write the quote to which the above was a response, and quite frankly, sir, given that his opinions are very strongly opposite of my own, I would appreciate it if you did not attribute his diatribes to me.

Thank you.
 
I hate to side with you, Diana, but the anti-Mormon sentiment on this board is getting quite irritating.

There is no need to lie or exaggerate in refuting Mormonism. The truth is quite adequate.
 
Four were injured. Three of them, Gallagher, Wills, and Voras left the area, fearing that their injuries would betray their having been there. The fourth, Allen, was reported as having a good alibi, and sought medical aid from a Warsaw physician. Gallagher, Wills, and Voras were indicted, but apparently could not be found.

Despite other claims to the contrary, there is no evidence that JS inflicted any fatal wounds. His tiny pistol apparently misfired; he did not get all six shots out of it. So, if there was only one pistol in the room, the rest is unconfirmed legend.

There are plenty of other charges to condemn him in a postmortem trial, so I wouldn’t complain about it.

You need to research more, really. :o
I have no idea how many times I have posted this information, with proofs to this forum, and how many times people have absolutely ignored me. Perhaps now that an actual critic of the CoJCoLDS repeats the info, it will be paid attention to?

Unless of course they believe that the very fact that historical documents (like vital records) indicate that your information is correct, and that there is NO evidence to support the idea that any of the attackers died (well, it seems that one may have; we don’t know for sure), that this is evidence that the church has a very long arm when it comes to conspiracy stuff.

Never mind that at the time, proof that Joseph actually HAD taken a few of his attackers with him would have been considered a very good thing. We are not now, and have not historically been, overly pacifist. We aren’t violent, but, well… Cet animal est très méchant, Quand on l’attaque il se défend. 😉 (translation for the lazy…“This animal is evil. When attacked, it will defend itself.”)
 
I hate to side with you, Diana, but the anti-Mormon sentiment on this board is getting quite irritating.

There is no need to lie or exaggerate in refuting Mormonism. The truth is quite adequate.
Sir, you are the sort of critic that I prefer to deal with. First, since you do try to get the facts right, a discussion with you, no matter how contentious it gets, is fruitful. I learn something. I gain something.

When you have the facts wrong, you adjust to the facts, you don’t (generally, at least) adjust the facts to your opinion. That, no matter how irritated I might get with you, makes you a ‘critic,’ not an ‘anti.’

At least in my definition of the term. 😉

You are, of course, out to lunch as to whether the truth disproves Mormonism, but hey; that’s why I’m a Mormon and you aren’t.
 
SirThomasMore;6883061:
After I read the Fawn Brodie book I’m under the impression the “saints” are lucky Joseph Smith did not get them all killed back then or bankrupt them straight to jail.
The USA didn’t kick us out (sorry, I have to address this one…)?

Wilburn Bogg’s Extermination order, anybody?

The fact is, the violence was escalating…and a lot more Mormons were dying and getting burned out than anything bad happening to the non-Mormons. You guys need to get your acts together on this one; first you call us violent and blood thirsty because Joseph had a gun and shot back, and now you are calling us cowards because, rather than go to war, we left?

When y’ll make up your minds as to the proper course of action we SHOULD have taken, let me know.
 
So? It HAS been proven that the LDS Church is false. The LDS Church, by tacit admission,. has admitted they KNOW there is NOTHING at Cumorah but a pageant
I agree on all accounts. Your original post is very interesting. Yes, WHY are the Mormons not EVER excavating Hill Cumorah???

That quesiton has not been answered on this thread although the Mormons posting here on the Hill Cumorah thread are filling this thread with long arguments about everything else but what the thread is about. One would think its a deliberate detraction from the topic at hand.

But it comes down to what you say. “The LDS Church, by tacit admission,. has admitted they KNOW there is NOTHING at Cumorah but a pageant”.
 
Another good one is Bushman’s “Rough Stone Rolling.” While Brodie got ex’ed for her book, Bushman is still a Mormon in good standing. They have made progress.
 
I agree on all accounts. Your original post is very interesting. Yes, WHY are the Mormons not EVER excavating Hill Cumorah???

That quesiton has not been answered on this thread although the Mormons posting here on the Hill Cumorah thread are filling this thread with long arguments about everything else but what the thread is about. One would think its a deliberate detraction from the topic at hand.

But it comes down to what you say. “The LDS Church, by tacit admission,. has admitted they KNOW there is NOTHING at Cumorah but a pageant”.
Why aren’t we excavating the Hill Cumorah.

Huh.

Lessee…so why aren’t Catholics allowing full forensic access to the body of St.Bernadette Soubirous, including a full autopsy and lab tests? –

Basically, I believe the reasons are pretty much the same for both; neither one of us needs that physical confirmation of spiritual beliefs.

Or, if you want to get closer to the point, the place where Tradition places the sepulchre of Jesus is home to a beautiful shrine that is run by six different orthodox Christian beliefs. Over the many centuries of its existance, this place has been a shrine to Venus and a home to other belief systems; yet the Catholics are not willing to look seriously at any other possible sites; this is where Jesus was buried, period. It’s a faith thing.

As for us, there is also this: if Joseph’s story about what is in the hill is true, then we have been told NOT to go digging around, since what’s down there isn’t for us yet. Therefore, God being Who He is, would not be all that pleased for us to go digging…and being Who He is, the odds of finding anything are slim to nill. It’s a faith thing…you know, rather like the folks who were told not to touch the Ark of the Covenant?

Or when Jesus’ desciples were told to go buy swords to protect themselves when they went out at one time, or to teach Jews only at one time, then expand their teaching to gentiles at another?

As for y’all, I can just hear the snorts…“Of course God told you not to dig there.” “Of course you wouldn’t find anything…” Given that you ARE Catholics and understand the nature of miracles and divine instruction, think twice before you assume that such is not possible simply because YOU don’t like us.

Tell me; if God told YOU to leave a place alone, would you be all that interested in excavating it? Lourdes, for instance?
 
All this talk of Fawn Brodie got me researching so I ordered her Joseph Smith book on half.com today.
For those who, like me, love history, Brodie’s biography of Thomas Jefferson is also a must-read. I rarely read a book more than once, but I read that one twice.

Paul
 
“Two other men were known to get hit in the hall, one a man named Townsend from Fort Madison, Iowa Territory, who died nine months later from the arm wound that wouldn’t heal, and another named Mills, who was shot in the arm.”
  • Elder Reed Blake, 24 Hours to Martyrdom, p. 129
He,
however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined
expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the
six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door
slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom,** I am informed, died,**

History of the Church, Volume 7
(Bolding mine)

Notice these are two pro mormon resources.
 
Another good one is Bushman’s “Rough Stone Rolling.” While Brodie got ex’ed for her book, Bushman is still a Mormon in good standing. They have made progress.
Fawn wasn’t ex’d for writing a book, LJ. She was excommunicated for public, and rather blatant, apostasy. She even admitted that she had lost her faith in the church considerably before she wrote the book, and she refused to change, or edit, proven inaccuracies in it; her bias was rather striking.

For instance, Bushman’s portrayal of Joseph Smith is ‘acceptable’ to critics because he talks about a very real, imperfect, man. Everything he writes is documented, and, if something he writes makes a TBM a little nervous, it’s presented clearly and with compassion. He actually has the nerve to believe that Joseph was what he claimed to be, AS WELL as being very human. Brodie operated with a bias that is undeniable; she threw out anything that could be positive about the man, or twisted it so that her view of him was the only view the reader is allowed…and she had been, by her own admission, ‘apostate’ for at least ten years before she wrote the book. Her thesis, indeed, is that there is no God, and since there isn’t one, any person whose actions rely upon there being one is, ipso facto, a fraud and a con-man. In other words, there is absolutely no room in her examination of a man who claimed to be a prophet of God that there is any possibility that anybody could be a prophet of a non-existant God. This results in a very skewed viewpoint for any theist.

In her book she exagerated greatly: putting important incidents in times and places they could not have occurred, even altering geography in order to do so; exagerating numbers to support her view point; raising the number of Joseph’s companions when doing so would illustrate her point, lowering them at other times for the same purpose. Sjhe took comments out of context…for instance, she quoted BY as saying this: If he (Smith) acts like a devil, he has brought forth a doctrine that will save us, if we abide by it. He may get drunk every day of his life, sleep with his neighbor’s wife every night, run horses and gamble . . . but the doctrine he has produced will save you and me the whole world"’ in an attempt to show that BY was aware of, and accepted, Joseph’s weaknesses. What she forgot to mention was that this statement was made by BY to a priest who had accused Joseph of having committed “almost every known crime.” BY’s answer was a rhetorical device–taking the previous speaker’s objection and, by showing its irrelevence to the point, answering it. He wasn’t SAYING that JS was all those wicked things (how could he? He had not, at the time of this statement, actually MET THE MAN YET!) he was saying that even if he were, if his doctrine is true, it’s true. IN other words, he was calling this priest on a fallacy of ad hominem.

Good historians who don’t have their own personal axes to grind tend to avoid this sort of thing.

Bushman, while he is uncompromising in his look at Joseph, is also fair. Brodie…wasn’t.
 
Four were injured. Three of them, Gallagher, Wills, and Voras left the area, fearing that their injuries would betray their having been there. The fourth, Allen, was reported as having a good alibi, and sought medical aid from a Warsaw physician. Gallagher, Wills, and Voras were indicted, but apparently could not be found.

Despite other claims to the contrary, there is no evidence that JS inflicted any fatal wounds. His tiny pistol apparently misfired; he did not get all six shots out of it. So, if there was only one pistol in the room, the rest is unconfirmed legend.

You need to research more, really.
Really? John Taylor, who would become the third president of the church, said exactly the opposite as recorded in HOTC Vol 7, pp 100-103. If the church is of, for, and by God, it doesn’t make any sense that he’d allow such an incorrect thing to be published by the church that bears his name, would it? No, thank you, I’ll take this at face value and call it exactly the way it looks.
 
Gallagher, Wills, and Voras were indicted, but apparently could not be found.
And what prevents them from having been LATER victims of Danite revenge? One member of Mark Aldrich’s Warsaw riflemen died five years TO THE DAY after Joseph Smith’s death, and reports were that they were many unexplained deaths right about then.
 
I hate to side with you, Diana, but the anti-Mormon sentiment on this board is getting quite irritating.

There is no need to lie or exaggerate in refuting Mormonism. The truth is quite adequate.
None of us have made any personal attacks on Mormons as people, only the false religion that they adhere to. You’re also welcome to not participate if you’re irritated by this.
 
And what prevents them from having been LATER victims of Danite revenge? One member of Mark Aldrich’s Warsaw riflemen died five years TO THE DAY after Joseph Smith’s death, and reports were that they were many unexplained deaths right about then.
Nothing, of course, but there’s no support for such an assumption.

Five years? That’s a coincidence because the number five has no real significance. The one-year anniversery would make more sense so I call nonsense on that point.
 
And what prevents them from having been LATER victims of Danite revenge? One member of Mark Aldrich’s Warsaw riflemen died five years TO THE DAY after Joseph Smith’s death, and reports were that they were many unexplained deaths right about then.
What prevents it?

Why…nothing but a complete and utter lack of evidence FOR it. One might as well ask what prevented Catholic nuns from holding Satanic rituals in their convents…except, of course, for the complete and utter lack of evidence that this was ever done.
 
Why aren’t we excavating the Hill Cumorah.

Huh.

Lessee…so why aren’t Catholics allowing full forensic access to the body of St.Bernadette Soubirous, including a full autopsy and lab tests? –

Basically, I believe the reasons are pretty much the same for both; neither one of us needs that physical confirmation of spiritual beliefs.

Or, if you want to get closer to the point, the place where Tradition places the sepulchre of Jesus is home to a beautiful shrine that is run by six different orthodox Christian beliefs. Over the many centuries of its existance, this place has been a shrine to Venus and a home to other belief systems; yet the Catholics are not willing to look seriously at any other possible sites; this is where Jesus was buried, period. It’s a faith thing.

As for us, there is also this: if Joseph’s story about what is in the hill is true, then we have been told NOT to go digging around, since what’s down there isn’t for us yet. Therefore, God being Who He is, would not be all that pleased for us to go digging…and being Who He is, the odds of finding anything are slim to nill. It’s a faith thing…you know, rather like the folks who were told not to touch the Ark of the Covenant?

Or when Jesus’ desciples were told to go buy swords to protect themselves when they went out at one time, or to teach Jews only at one time, then expand their teaching to gentiles at another?

As for y’all, I can just hear the snorts…“Of course God told you not to dig there.” “Of course you wouldn’t find anything…” Given that you ARE Catholics and understand the nature of miracles and divine instruction, think twice before you assume that such is not possible simply because YOU don’t like us.

Tell me; if God told YOU to leave a place alone, would you be all that interested in excavating it? Lourdes, for instance?
Am I understanding this correctly - are you saying that the LDS have been told by God not to excavate the Hill Cumorah area?
When did God say this and to whom?
Was it published in a church publication?
Diana, if God spoke to someone in your church about this I would like to know all the details surrounding the event.

As far as I know, no Catholic nun or priest has claimed that God spoke to them about St. Bernadette or holy places in Israel. The Catholic Church is not too quick to acknowledge that a person is “hearing from God to do or not do this or that.” It would take years of investigating before they would claim that a person’s personal revelation is true.

Forensic and lab tests on St. Bernadette? What does that have to do with excavating the Book of Mormon ruins?
The Catholic faith is not built upon St. Bernadette, or where Jesus was born - Mormonism is built on the Book of Mormon. I have heard it over and over…I know the church is true. I know the BoM is true…
 
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