Cumorah

[dianaiad]

Am I understanding this correctly - are you saying that the LDS have been told by God not to excavate the Hill Cumorah area?
When did God say this and to whom?
Was it published in a church publication?
Diana, if God spoke to someone in your church about this I would like to know all the details surrounding the event.

As far as I know, no Catholic nun or priest has claimed that God spoke to them about St. Bernadette or holy places in Israel. The Catholic Church is not too quick to acknowledge that a person is “hearing from God to do or not do this or that.” It would take years of investigating before they would claim that a person’s personal revelation is true.

Forensic and lab tests on St. Bernadette? What does that have to do with excavating the Book of Mormon ruins?
The Catholic faith is not built upon St. Bernadette, or where Jesus was born - Mormonism is built on the Book of Mormon. I have heard it over and over…I know the church is true. I know the BoM is true…

When you read the story of Joseph’s first vision, and his subsequent discriptions of the plates upon which the book was written, you will note that more of it was sealed than not; As in 'don’t go there." Brigham Young told of how Joseph was told to take the plates back to where he found them (and, by the way, Joseph Smith never himself claimed that they were found in the 'Hill Cumorah." He spoke only of the greater land Cumorah. Therefore they may very well not BE in that specific hill.

At any rate, when he returned the plates, according to BY, he entered a rather large room filled with other records, including the Sword of Laban and other objects,and he was not allowed to deal with any of them.

That pretty much indicates that we shouldn’t go messin’ with it. Someday those records will be available, when we are all ready for 'em.

But tell me, sir; if we DID find that vault with all the records, what would that do to you? Or for you?

Really?

 

[Returning_Home]

When you read the story of Joseph’s first vision, and his subsequent discriptions of the plates upon which the book was written, you will note that more of it was sealed than not;

And which version of the Furst Vision are you referring to?

As in 'don’t go there." Brigham Young told of how Joseph was told to take the plates back to where he found them (and, by the way, Joseph Smith never himself claimed that they were found in the 'Hill Cumorah." He spoke only of the greater land Cumorah. Therefore they may very well not BE in that specific hill.

Trying to be slippery again, but I won’t allow you to get away with it; there’s no doubt that there’s just one Hill Cumorah because it’s never once referred to in a plural sense, that Moroni allegedly buried the plates at the top of it, and that Joseph Smith retrieved those same plates to ‘translate.’

There’s no indication that the fictional plates were buried anywhere but Cumorah which Lucy Mack Smith confirms: "…Joseph beware when you go to get the plates your mind will be filled with darkness and all manner of evil will rush into your mind To prevent you from keeping the commandments of God that you may not succed in doing his work and you must tell your father of this for he will believe every word you say the record is on a side hill on the Hill of cumorah 3 miles from this place remove the Grass and moss and you will find a large flat stone pry that up and you will find the record laying on 4 pillars of cement…(sic, all, Lucy Mack Smith, Preliminary Manuscript, 1845, also in Early Mormon Documents, Signature Books, 1996, SLC, UT)’

There’s no indication or even implication that the plates were ever buried anywhere but the Hill Cumorah in New York. You can’t wriggle out of this one because the church and its ranking members have repeatedly identified over and over that the plates came from the one and only Hill Cumorah. Just because Smith didn’t use the exact wording in that order means nothing without additional statements to refute it. The clear impression that we are to glean from Smith’s story is that the two are one and the same.

 

[SirThomasMore]

When you read the story of Joseph’s first vision, and his subsequent discriptions of the plates upon which the book was written, you will note that more of it was sealed than not; As in 'don’t go there." Brigham Young told of how Joseph was told to take the plates back to where he found them (and, by the way, Joseph Smith never himself claimed that they were found in the 'Hill Cumorah." He spoke only of the greater land Cumorah. Therefore they may very well not BE in that specific hill.

At any rate, when he returned the plates, according to BY, he entered a rather large room filled with other records, including the Sword of Laban and other objects,and he was not allowed to deal with any of them.

That pretty much indicates that we shouldn’t go messin’ with it. Someday those records will be available, when we are all ready for 'em.

But tell me, sir; if we DID find that vault with all the records, what would that do to you? Or for you?

Really?

you can’t find the vault if you don’t look. Your alleged prophets have been very clear that the two enormous battles took place on the hill. By the way, in one of the versions, Joe claimed he took the plates from a bearded Spaniard. Think iof we find the vault, we will also find the Spaniard?

 

[lax16]

When you read the story of Joseph’s first vision, and his subsequent discriptions of the plates upon which the book was written, you will note that more of it was sealed than not; As in 'don’t go there." Brigham Young told of how Joseph was told to take the plates back to where he found them (and, by the way, Joseph Smith never himself claimed that they were found in the 'Hill Cumorah." He spoke only of the greater land Cumorah. Therefore they may very well not BE in that specific hill.

At any rate, when he returned the plates, according to BY, he entered a rather large room filled with other records, including the Sword of Laban and other objects,and he was not allowed to deal with any of them.

That pretty much indicates that we shouldn’t go messin’ with it. Someday those records will be available, when we are all ready for 'em.

But tell me, sir; if we DID find that vault with all the records, what would that do to you? Or for you?

Really?

Diana - From my Book of Mormon - Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith

"The first think that I can recollect was a voice speaking unto me, calling me by name. I looked up, and beheld the same messenger standing over my head, surrounded by light as before. He then again related unto me all that he had related to me the previous night, and commanded me to go to my father and tell him of the vision and commandments which I had received.

"I obeyed; I returned to my father in the field, and rehearsed the whole matter to him. He replied to me that it was of God, and told me to go and do as commanded by the messenger. **I left the field, and went to the place where the messenger had told me the **plates were deposited; and owing to the distinctness of the vision which I had had concerning, I knew the place the instant that I arrived there.

**"Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of ****considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. **On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates…

It is very clear from this testimony that the Hill Cumorah was within walking distance of JS home that he shared with his father. Also we know that it is in NY and that it is on the highest hill there. He is very specific about this.

I am not making the connection between what JS said about the golden plates:

“When, according to arrangements, the messenger called for them, I delivered them up to him; and he has them in his charge until this day, being the second of May, one thousand eight hundred and thirty-eight”

and excavating the area around the Hill Cumorah?

Please cite the sources where the angel or God says that the records will someday be made available to all.

 

[dianaiad]

Diana - From my Book of Mormon - Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith

"The first think that I can recollect was a voice speaking unto me, calling me by name. I looked up, and beheld the same messenger standing over my head, surrounded by light as before. He then again related unto me all that he had related to me the previous night, and commanded me to go to my father and tell him of the vision and commandments which I had received.

"I obeyed; I returned to my father in the field, and rehearsed the whole matter to him. He replied to me that it was of God, and told me to go and do as commanded by the messenger. **I left the field, and went to the place where the messenger had told me the **plates were deposited; and owing to the distinctness of the vision which I had had concerning, I knew the place the instant that I arrived there.

**"Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of ****considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. **On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates…

It is very clear from this testimony that the Hill Cumorah was within walking distance of JS home that he shared with his father. Also we know that it is in NY and that it is on the highest hill there. He is very specific about this.

But he did not call that hill 'Cumorah," did he?

That point about the name of the hill aside, the very fact that he had to give the plates BACK is a pretty good indication that he wasn’t to keep them, or go after them again…at least not without direct instruction to do so. That’s got to be a logical conclusion to make, wouldn’t you say?

I am not making the connection between what JS said about the golden plates:

“When, according to arrangements, the messenger called for them, I delivered them up to him; and he has them in his charge until this day, being the second of May, one thousand eight hundred and thirty-eight”

and excavating the area around the Hill Cumorah?

Please cite the sources where the angel or God says that the records will someday be made available to all.

That is also obvious, and logical. What purpose would be served by keeping them hidden after Christ comes again, for instance? As well, it is rather illogical to figure that things like this, hidden away, are supposed to remain that way forever…if that were true, simply destroying them would be the obvious course to take.

 

[scipio337]

I think the discovery of the JS papyri and the Book of Abraham “translations” all point to why Cumorah isn’t excavated. Its called cognitive dissonance.

 

[dianaiad]

I think the discovery of the JS papyri and the Book of Abraham “translations” all point to why Cumorah isn’t excavated. Its called cognitive dissonance.

Could be that, too…except that newer discoveries have brought forth some rather interesting bits about the papyri that is known as the “JS papyri.” I’ve only skimmed the surface of what has been found so far, so I can’t really comment on it. (shrug) It’s just…interesting, so far, in that it might be leading away from what the critics are claiming.

I’ll wade through the jargon and see where it goes.

 

[scipio337]

Could be that, too…except that newer discoveries have brought forth some rather interesting bits about the papyri that is known as the “JS papyri.” I’ve only skimmed the surface of what has been found so far, so I can’t really comment on it. (shrug) It’s just…interesting, so far, in that it might be leading away from what the critics are claiming.

I’ll wade through the jargon and see where it goes.

And I’m sure those “new discoveries” are universally accepted by non-LDS archeologists, in peer reviewed journals, and if so, I would love to see those links!

 

[Returning_Home]

But he did not call that hill 'Cumorah," did he?

There’s no indication that there were any other hills, mountains, fields, floodplains, forests, deserts, tundras, or any other geographic locale involved in the story. You’re just playing games, attempting to deceive yourself and us (succeeding only in the former) so as to keep believing the church’s lies.

No, I find no reference to Smith having called that hill the Hill Cumorah but as we’ve seen, the hill was within three miles and thus located on or adjacent to the Smith property. We know that the church has repeatedly confirmed that the Hill Cumorah is in New York and we also know that it has never once been referred to in the plural sense.

You have no leg to stand on and you’re looking foolish for your excuses.

 

[Returning_Home]

Could be that, too…except that newer discoveries have brought forth some rather interesting bits about the papyri that is known as the “JS papyri.” I’ve only skimmed the surface of what has been found so far, so I can’t really comment on it. (shrug) It’s just…interesting, so far, in that it might be leading away from what the critics are claiming.

I’ll wade through the jargon and see where it goes.

Unfortunately, the Book of Abraham was wholly discredited before Gerald Ford took office. It was a lie and Smith couldn’t, as he clearly demonstrated with his alleged Egyptian grammar, read or translate any ancient language.

If you read Hugh Nibley’s assesment of the papyrus, you’ll find that even he wanted to distance himself from it, and his explanations for it were increasingly silly.

No, it’s not leading to anything other than Joseph Smith being the fraud we’ve all along said he was. Sorry.

 

[Returning_Home]

And I’m sure those “new discoveries” are universally accepted by non-LDS archeologists, in peer reviewed journals, and if so, I would love to see those links!

I’ll bet that all of them are from FAIR or FARMS.

 

[twopekinguys]

I’ll bet that all of them are from FAIR or FARMS.

And we all know how “objective” and “unbiased” those views will be.

 

[PaulDupre]

Dianaiad:

But he did not call that hill 'Cumorah," did he?

We’ve been over this time and again. See post #20 in this thread where I posted a letter from the First Presidency declaring definitively that the one and only hill “Cumorah” is the one in upstate New York a few miles from the Smith farm.

It is curious to me that the LDS on these fora so easily dismiss the authoritative teachings of their “prophets, seers and revelators” when it is expedient to do so, as Diana is doing here by suggesting that the real Cumorah is not the one in upstate New York as declared by the First Presidency. In fact, all of the prophets and apostles all the way back to Joseph smith have declared that the hill Cumorah is in upstate New York. So why don’t the LDS believe them?

I know why I don’t believe them, but I wonder if the LDS (in their heart of hearts) disbelieve their prophets for the same reason as I do.

 

[lax16]

But he did not call that hill 'Cumorah," did he?

Cumorah
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The Hill Cumorah in Palmyra, New York, where the gold plates were buried, later translated as the Book of MormonCumorah, more commonly known among Mormons as the Hill Cumorah, is the name given to a hill (so named in 1829) four miles south of Palmyra, New York. **It was in this hill, in roughly the year A.D. 421, that the prophet/historian Moroni deposited a record, **engraved upon golden plates he and his father Mormon had compiled. Fourteen hundred years later in 1827, that same Moroni directed young Joseph Smith to retrieve the record from the Hill Cumorah. Joseph did as directed and translated the plates into the Book of Mormon.

In addition to being a storehouse to the sacred record, **the Hill Cumorah was somewhat of ****a school for young Joseph. During the years between Moroni’s first visit to the prophet in 1823 and the time Joseph was allowed to take the plates in 1827, Joseph ****visited Cumorah. Each year, Moroni would meet Joseph and give him further knowledge and instruction. **

Okay - so here we have an LDS written definition of the hill Cumorah.

1. Named Cumorah in 1829 by ? (presumably a Mormon, maybe JS himself?)
2. In New York
3. 4 miles south of Palmyra, NY
4. where the gold plates were buried
5. Joseph visited yearly and Moroni would meet him there for further instruction.

But, Diana you say JS didn’t call it “Cumorah” so…the Hill Cumorah is not really it?
Why do Mormons have an annual pageant in this area and have since, I believe, 1935?
Why did JS visit this site annually?
Why did Moroni meet him at this site?
Why is it documented everywhere in LDS writings/speeches that the Hill Cumorah is in NY?

How in the world can anyone backtrack on this!!!

 

[lax16]

But he did not call that hill 'Cumorah," did he?

Witnesses See the Plates
“It was in June, 1829–the latter part of the month, and the Eight Witnesses saw them, I think, the next day or the day after (i.e. one or two days after). Joseph showed them the plates himself, but **the angel **showed us (the Three Witnesses) the plates, as I suppose to fulfill the words of the book itself. Martin Harris was not with us at this time; he obtained a view of them afterwards (the same day). Joseph, Oliver and myself were together when I saw them. **We not only saw the plates of the Book of Mormon **but also the brass plates, the plates of the Book of Ether, the plates containing the records of the wickedness and secret combinations of the people of the world down to the time of their being [page 772] engraved, and many other plates. The fact is, it was just as though **Joseph, Oliver and I **were sitting just here on a log, when we were overshadowed by a light. It was not like the light of the sun nor like that of a fire, but more glorious and beautiful. It extended away round us, I cannot tell how far, but in the midst of this light about as far off as he sits (pointing to John C. Whitmer, sitting a few feet from him), there appeared as it were, a table with many records or plates upon it, besides the plates of the Book of Mormon, also the Sword of Laban, the Directors–i.e., the ball which Lehi had–and the Interpreters. I saw them just as plain as I see this bed (striking the bed beside him with his hand), and I heard the voice of the Lord, as distinctly as I ever heard anything in my life, **declaring that the records of the plates of the Book of Mormon were translated by the gift and power of God.” **

**“It was in the latter part of June, 1829. Joseph [Smith, Jr.], Oliver Cowdrey and myself ****were together, and the angel showed them to us. **We not only saw the plates of the Book of Mormon, but he also showed us the brass plates of the Book of Ether and many others. They were shown to us in this way: Joseph and Oliver and I were sitting on a log when we were overshadowed by a light more glorious than that of the sun. In the midst of this light, but a few feet from us, appeared a table upon which were many golden plates, also the sword of Laban and the directors. I saw them as plain as I see you now and distinctly heard the voice of the Lord declaring that the records of the plates of the Book of Mormon were translated by the gift and the power of God.”

“Yes, he told me that he first found the plates in the year 1823; that during the fall of 1823 he had a vision, an angel appearing to him three times in one night and telling him that there was a record of an ancient people deposited in a hill near his father’s house, called by the ancients `Cumorah,’ situated in the township of Manchester, Ontario County, N. Y. The angel pointed out the exact spot, and, sometime after, he went and found the records or plates deposited in a stone box in the hill, just as had been described to him by the angel. It was some little time, however, before the angel would allow Smith to remove the plates from their place of deposit.”

“Well there was a table about that size, and the heavenly messenger brought the several plates and laid them on the table before our eyes, and we saw them, and bore testimony of them, and our testimony is true. And if these things are not true then there is no truth, and if there is no truth there is no God, and if there is no God there is no existence. But I know there is a God for I have heard his voice and witnessed the manifestations of his power.” [David Whitmer]

Diana - He swears his testimony about the BoM and the angel at the Hill Cumorah in NY is true. **Is he lying? Is he giving a false testimony? He saw the angel himself so why would he lie? **

He was with Joseph Smith and said that JS told him that the angel told him that the ancient records were in a hill near his father’s house that the ancients called ‘Cumorah’ yet you are saying this is not so?

He swears it is true - if it is not true, there is no truth, no God…So which is it???

 

[lax16]

At any rate, when he returned the plates, according to BY, he entered a rather large room filled with other records, including the Sword of Laban and other objects,and he was not allowed to deal with any of them.

That isn’t all Brigham Young said:

(cont’d)

In a cave, where the angel has hidden them up till the time arrives when the plates, which are sealed, shall be translated. God will yet raise up a mighty one, who shall do his work till it is finished and Jesus comes again… **The Cave is in the state of New York. ** **It ****is not far from that place (Hill Cumorah.) ****I saw the place where the plates **were found, and a great many did so, and it awakened an excitement at the time, because the worst enemies of “Mormonism” stirred up the confusion by telling about the plates which Joseph found, and the “gold bible” which he was in possession of, so he was in constant danger of being robbed and killed. It was a stone box, and the stones looked to me as if they were cemented together. That was on the side of the hill, and a little down from the top." [David Whitmer]

“How does it compare with the vision that Joseph and others had, when they went into a cave in the hill Cumorah, and saw more records than ten men could carry? There were books piled up on tables, book upon book. Those records this people will yet have, if they accept of the Book of Mormon and observe its precepts, and keep the commandments.” [Brigham Young]

“When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: “This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ.” I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdrey, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting, enjoying the day, and by and by we separate and go away, forgetting most of what is said, but remembering some things. So is it with other circumstances in life. I relate this to you, and I want you to understand it. I take this liberty of referring to those things so that they will not be forgotten and lost. Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader.” [Brigham Young]

Brigham Young called the hill Cumorah. Didn’t he know JS personally? Why would he call it that if it wasn’t so?
If the hill was not within walking distance, how did these men get to Central America to have these meetings with the angel? How did they get the plates back from Mexico or Central America?
Are there records of these men traveling to Central America and back numerous times?
If the records were stirring up a commotion, would that have been among the Mayans or people of New York?

 

[dianaiad]

And I’m sure those “new discoveries” are universally accepted by non-LDS archeologists, in peer reviewed journals, and if so, I would love to see those links!

As I said, it was simply a skim…and I THINK it was from a non-LDS peer reviewed source.

Can’t be sure about that, though…I have to go back and find it.

 

[Returning_Home]

Very strong work, Lax. You have my admiration.

There were three hours between your last post and Diana’s so we both know that she had time to read them and yet, strangely enough, she didn’t bother to address the points that we all brought up. She knows that she’s put herself into a corner and can’t get out without denying at least part of the church’s own position.

Her next move will be to make some silly claims that aren’t supported by any of the church’s literature in order to try to sneak past the facts.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and call it a big FAIL in advance.

 

[lax16]

Very strong work, Lax. You have my admiration.

There were three hours between your last post and Diana’s so we both know that she had time to read them and yet, strangely enough, she didn’t bother to address the points that we all brought up. She knows that she’s put herself into a corner and can’t get out without denying at least part of the church’s own position.

Her next move will be to make some silly claims that aren’t supported by any of the church’s literature in order to try to sneak past the facts.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and call it a big FAIL in advance.

Returning Home - Thanks for your kind words!

I am actually very surprised at the amount of clear-cut documentation claiming that the Hill Cumorah is in New York.

For anyone to support the Central American theory would mean that

1. Joseph Smith did not walk to the Hill Cumorah from his father’s house.
2. Joseph Smith did not have numerous meetings with the angel Moroni near his father’s house.
3. Joseph Smith had to travel to Central America which then makes his testimony false because he tells us he walked to the hill from his father’s house.
4. All of the witnesses were really in Central America but said they were in New York which makes their testimony false.

Obviously, the list goes on and on.

My next question is: Do the Mormons that believe Central America is the real location of the BoM *know their scripture *or can they claim that the BoM is true but JS/BY/witnesses gave false testimony? Is there any other way to look at it?

 

[SirThomasMore]

how can any Mormon deny that Cumorah is the one in NY where the pagenat is held? Mormon prophets and apostles have very declared it is one in the same. For Diana to claim differently is to admit Mormon “prophets” are not truly prophets.