Cumorah

[twopekinguys]

how can any Mormon deny that Cumorah is the one in NY where the pagenat is held? Mormon prophets and apostles have very declared it is one in the same. For Diana to claim differently is to admit Mormon “prophets” are not truly prophets.

Well, that will close about a dozen threads…

 

[lax16]

Well, that will close about a dozen threads…

twopekingguys - How true!

I am still wondering how BYU professors can claim that the BoM took place in MesoAmerica when Joseph Smith clearly said he walked to the Hill Cumorah from his father’s farm??!!

Is there no official teaching on this? What are people investigating the church told about where the Hill Cumorah is located? When people travel to see the pageant in New York, doesn’t anyone ask questions like “Mommy and Daddy, why are we in New York when it all happened in Central America?” or when couples travel to the Mayan ruins doesn’t *anyone *say “Hey, I was told that Joseph Smith said this all really happened in New York?”

For the LDS, either the testimony of Joseph Smith is false or the MesoAmerican theory is false. There is no other way to look at it. It seems to me that there are two camps within the LDS church. The ones that believe Joseph Smith and the ones that discredit his testimony.

(There is actually a restaurant here in Utah called the Mayan and I never understood the connection…???)

 

[lax16]

how can any Mormon deny that Cumorah is the one in NY where the pagenat is held? Mormon prophets and apostles have very declared it is one in the same. For Diana to claim differently is to admit Mormon “prophets” are not truly prophets.

Exactly. Why go to “that random hill in New York” when it all really happened in Central America? Or why go to Central America on an LDS tour when it all really happened in New York?

Or go to both locations and just enjoy the vacation and forget about what LDS scripture says on the matter!

 

[Eliza10]

Well, that will close about a dozen threads…

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

Did Smith ever claim that the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica?

 

[Eliza10]

I am still wondering how BYU professors can claim that the BoM took place in MesoAmerica when Joseph Smith clearly said he walked to the Hill Cumorah from his father’s farm??!!

:hypno:

Is there no official teaching on this? What are people investigating the church told about where the Hill Cumorah is located? When people travel to see the pageant in New York, doesn’t anyone ask questions like “Mommy and Daddy, why are we in New York when it all happened in Central America?” …

.

For the LDS, either the testimony of Joseph Smith is false or the MesoAmerican theory is false. There is no other way to look at it. It seems to me that there are two camps within the LDS church. The ones that believe Joseph Smith and the ones that discredit his testimony.

:clapping:

(There is actually a restaurant here in Utah called the Mayan and I never understood the connection…???)

:hypno:

 

[dianaiad]

Well, that will close about a dozen threads…

No, for “Diana to claim differently” is simply to note that in spite of all the claims here, Joseph Smith never refered to the hill from where he got the plates as “Cumorah.” It came as an interesting bit of trivia to me, and you guys are taking this all out of proportion.

It may well be the 'Hill Cumorah…" Whatever it is, it’s the hill where Joseph Smith got the plates and returned them, and, unlike archeological work elsewhere, should probably be left alone.

Why? Because if we were supposed to go digging around there, Joseph would have been allowed to keep the plates. Since he had to give them back, it seems pretty obious that we aren’t supposed to have them yet. Since they have not been destroyed, but simply hidden and stored, then obviously that is for a purpose too; eventually we get to see that stuff, in God’s own good time.

Consider this, as well…God being Who He is, if we aren’t supposed to have that stuff yet, just how likely is it that even leveling that mountain/hill and sifting through it microscopically would result in our FINDING it?

As for my not answering posts in a manner that seems timely to you, get over it. I may be, because of my job, chained to my computer but I’m sure as !@#$ not chained to this forum or answerable to anybody here as to the time it takes to answer something!

I’m quite certain that any of you would view, with great and understandable irritation, any criticism from me that you weren’t answering one of my posts fast enough.

 

[dianaiad]

Did Smith ever claim that the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica?

No, actually, he did not.

 

[twopekinguys]

twopekingguys - How true!

I am still wondering how BYU professors can claim that the BoM took place in MesoAmerica when Joseph Smith clearly said he walked to the Hill Cumorah from his father’s farm??!!

Let’s not forget Thomas S. Ferguson, a mormon archeologist that could find nothing to support the MesoAmerican theory.

Is there no official teaching on this? What are people investigating the church told about where the Hill Cumorah is located? When people travel to see the pageant in New York, doesn’t anyone ask questions like “Mommy and Daddy, why are we in New York when it all happened in Central America?” or when couples travel to the Mayan ruins doesn’t *anyone *say “Hey, I was told that Joseph Smith said this all really happened in New York?”

Let’s not forget also that there has been a recent push for all of this to now be in the central Midwest of the US. I have seen where some mormons have thought, or imply the area around St. Louis, known as Cahokia mounds might be a source.

lds.travel/index.php?showpage=adventure.php&nav=C&ID=660

For the LDS, either the testimony of Joseph Smith is false or the MesoAmerican theory is false. There is no other way to look at it. It seems to me that there are two camps within the LDS church. The ones that believe Joseph Smith and the ones that discredit his testimony.

(There is actually a restaurant here in Utah called the Mayan and I never understood the connection…???)

I would propose there is a third camp. They would be the ones that don’t want to think about it all, so they don’t have to face it.

 

[Returning_Home]

Did Smith ever claim that the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica?

First, I strongly suggest you get this book:

cgi.ebay.com/Ancient-America-and-Book-Mormon-Rare-Mormon-LDS-/320567260916?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item4aa34c36f4

Why? Because it will show how Thomas Stuart Ferguson’s thought process started, that the BOM was real and that he wanted to find evidence to confirm it. This book predates his first expedition to Meso-America so his assertions hadn’t yet been challenged. I bought it just for fun on Ebay and found it to be a valuable resource for several important pieces of information.

Second, yes, Smith did identify certain locations in the region as being from the BOM: “Mr. Stephens’ great development of antiquities are made bare to the eyes of all the people by reading the history of the Nephites in the Book of Mormon. They lived about the narrow neck of land, which now embraces Central America, with the cities that can be found. Read (in the BOM about) the destruction of cities at the crucifixion of Christ…” (Times and Seasons, Sept 15, 1842) Smith was the editor of T&S at the time so it stands to reason that everything it printed went through his approval process.

The Mr. Stephens Smith is referring to here is John Lloyd Stephens who wrote Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan . The book was published in 1841 and Smith read it in 1842. There’s no mention that I can find of Meso-America being part of the BOM events until this date.

Stephens’ book is still available, too. I plan to get that eventually as well.

Ancient America and the BOM compares the BOM and the Works of Ixtlilxochitl looking for parallels in which it finds precious few. The book also goes on to provide several maps with possible locations for this or that city. I haven’t read it all the way through yet because it’s a bit dry, but the raw data is very telling.

No, actually, he did not.

It’s a shame you don’t know your own church’s history better. But then again, they wouldn’t want you to anyway.

 

[SirThomasMore]

No, for “Diana to claim differently” is simply to note that in spite of all the claims here, Joseph Smith never refered to the hill from where he got the plates as “Cumorah.” It came as an interesting bit of trivia to me, and you guys are taking this all out of proportion.

ah…so because you believe we would act poorly, you believe it is ok for you to act poorly? I had no idea that was the LDS standard

 

[SirThomasMore]

No, actually, he did not.

Joe never said where it took place, but it never really took place

 

[twopekinguys]

“As the fighting neared its end, Mormon gathered the remnant of his forces about a hill which they called Cumorah, located in what is now the western part of the state of New York.” Oct. 1978 Conference Report​

“The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York .” (Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, chapter 14)​

Hill Cumorah “is a place described in the Book of Mormon where approximately two hundred fifty thousand Nephite soldiers were killed in a final battle with the Lamanites, and where centuries earlier, the last battle of the Jaredites took place which destroyed their civilization.”[1] That the location of Hill Cumorah events was in New York has been affirmed by people like Joseph Smith, Orson Pratt, Marion G. Romney, Anthony Ivins, B.H. Roberts, James Talmage, Joseph Fielding Smith, George Reynolds, and Bruce McConkie. It is also affirmed in a current CES institute manual[2], and was as recently as 1990 affirmed in a letter from Secretary to the First Presidency[3].

All from mormonwiki.org

I find it interesting that any lds would dispute their own Articles of Faith, or dispute what is said by the “president” of their church.

Something isn’t adding up here.

I mean, aren’t all lds supposed to uphold **all **of the “articles of faith”?

 

[soren1]

It’s a shame you don’t know your own church’s history better. But then again, they wouldn’t want you to anyway.

Dianaid is correct, insofar as Smith did claim that some of the BOM happened there. On one occasion he commended a missionary who had traevled to South Americs because he was spreading Mormonism through a greater part of Nephite lands. But copious evidence shows that this is because Smith accepted a hemispheric model encompassing North and South America. What Smith did not teach is the dominant theory among modern apologists that BOM history is substantially* limited to* Mesoamerica.

The nail in the coffin, however, for the Limited Geography Theory is the Zelph incident, in which several witnesses independently reported that Smith had identified, on the basis of revelation, the bones of a White Lamanite Prophet named Zelph while crossing some plains in the midwest. In addition to the name of Zelph, the story contains other specifics, which defy explanation as mere speculations of Smith: these include the name of a general Onandagus to whose army Zelph belonged, and that they were engaged in an expedition that would lead to the final battle at Cumorah to the East.

Mormon rebuttals to this emphasize that Smith himself did not write about Zelph, so the reports are “second hand.” A few of them are not by eyewitnesses and hence “third hand,” and the reports have discrepancies. This is another example of the radical historical skepticism that Mormon apologists apply to adverse evidence, but not to favorable evidence. In reality, the accounts are mostly first-hand in the sense that they were written by direct hearers of Smith. The biggest discrepancy is that one account has Zelph as a “Nephite” rather than a “white Lamanite,” yet this is easy to resolve, since the BOM gives the name of “Nephite” to righteous persons even if they are descended from Laman. Further, there is a letter from Smith to Emma saying he had found Nephite bones in Illinois, on the “plains of Nephi” on the same day as the Zelph reports, though he gives no specifics.

 

[Returning_Home]

Dianaid is correct, insofar as Smith did claim that some of the BOM happened there. On one occasion he commended a missionary who had traevled to South Americs because he was spreading Mormonism through a greater part of Nephite lands.

But what year was that? As I said, I can find no evidence that there was any mention of Meso-America being the site of any BOM events until after Smith read the Stephens book. There were books on the area that Smith could’ve possibly gotten hold of, but there’s no solid evidence of it thus far.

Regarding Zelph, he was allegedly found in a mound on the bank of the Illinois River, not far from Florence, IL. Since we know that the Hill Cumorah is in New York, this begs the question: why would a man, with an arrow between his ribs, ride his fictional horse some 700 miles from the site of the battle? This becomes even more absurd if the Hill Cumorah is supposedly in Meso-America.

As far as the recording of the HOTC goes, apologists are just using that as an excuse to get around the gaping hole in reasoning here. If the HOTC cannot be believed, how can the BOM be accepted as fact when it, too, was dictated to a scribe?

 

[lax16]

No, for “Diana to claim differently” is simply to note that in spite of all the claims here, Joseph Smith never refered to the hill from where he got the plates as “Cumorah.” It came as an interesting bit of trivia to me, and you guys are taking this all out of proportion.

It may well be the 'Hill Cumorah…" Whatever it is, it’s the hill where Joseph Smith got the plates and returned them, and, unlike archeological work elsewhere, should probably be left alone.

Joseph Smith’s Testimony
50 I obeyed; I returned to my father in the field, and rehearsed the whole matter to him. He replied to me that it was of God, and told me to go and do as commanded by the messenger. I left the field, **and went to the place where the messenger had told me the **plates were deposited; and owing to the distinctness of the vision which I had had concerning it, I knew the place the instant that I arrived there.

THE BOOK OF MORMON
CHAPTER 6
**The Nephites gather to the land of Cumorah for the final battles—Mormon hides the sacred records in the hill Cumorah—The Lamanites are victorious, and the Nephite nation is destroyed—Hundreds of thousands are slain with the sword. [A.D. 385] ** 1 And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And it came to pass that we did march forth before the Lamanites.
2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.
3 And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites did grant unto me the thing which I desired.
4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.
5 And *when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.
6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni. 7 And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.
8 And it came to pass that they came to battle against us, and every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.
9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.
10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.
11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.
12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.

Diana - It was referred to as Cumorah by Moroni and JS says he knew it was the right place. It is where the golden plates were deposited by Moroni, where JS found them, and BY and all the Mormons called it Cumorah.
I understand that it is a bit of trivia that JS didn’t call the hill Cumorah, but everyone else did! Including Moroni who was the one conversing with JS.

It goes back to the same question - How can any Mormon claim that this is not the same Hill Cumorah where the last battle occurred and where Moroni deposited the plates? Obviously, in the BoM chapter 6, the reason the plates were deposited here is because it is where the final battle took place.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It links to Smith’s treasure digging, and a belief that spirits stand guard over buried treasure. Of course, the spirit of the man (Moroni) who buried the treasure is standing guard over the treasure, where it was buried: Cumorah.

 

[lax16]

Let’s not forget Thomas S. Ferguson, a mormon archeologist that could find nothing to support the MesoAmerican theory.

Let’s not forget also that there has been a recent push for all of this to now be in the central Midwest of the US. I have seen where some mormons have thought, or imply the area around St. Louis, known as Cahokia mounds might be a source.

lds.travel/index.php?showpage=adventure.php&nav=C&ID=660

I would propose there is a third camp. They would be the ones that don’t want to think about it all, so they don’t have to face it.

You know, I guess I’m just a real stickler for church teachings that never change.

I even hold other religions to their original teachings!

 

[scipio337]

…The nail in the coffin, however, for the Limited Geography Theory is the Zelph incident, in which several witnesses independently reported that Smith had identified, on the basis of revelation, the bones of a White Lamanite Prophet named Zelph while crossing some plains in the midwest. In addition to the name of Zelph, the story contains other specifics, which defy explanation as mere speculations of Smith: these include the name of a general Onandagus to whose army Zelph belonged, and that they were engaged in an expedition that would lead to the final battle at Cumorah to the East.

Mormon rebuttals to this emphasize that Smith himself did not write about Zelph, so the reports are “second hand.” A few of them are not by eyewitnesses and hence “third hand,” and the reports have discrepancies. This is another example of the radical historical skepticism that Mormon apologists apply to adverse evidence, but not to favorable evidence. In reality, the accounts are mostly first-hand in the sense that they were written by direct hearers of Smith. The biggest discrepancy is that one account has Zelph as a “Nephite” rather than a “white Lamanite,” yet this is easy to resolve, since the BOM gives the name of “Nephite” to righteous persons even if they are descended from Laman. Further, there is a letter from Smith to Emma saying he had found Nephite bones in Illinois, on the “plains of Nephi” on the same day as the Zelph reports, though he gives no specifics.

Very good point!

 

[twopekinguys]

You know, I guess I’m just a real stickler for church teachings that never change.

I even hold other religions to their original teachings!

Can I get an Amen up in here!!!

[SIGN]AMEN!![/SIGN]