Cumorah

[Pahoran]

Serious non-Mormon BoM scholars

Who are they? Where did they study? What are their credentials? What have they published?

say that it only roughly fits many geographies because it is FICTION.

And thus you undermine your own argument. People who dismiss the Book of Mormon as “FICTION” are the last people to take the time to seriously study it to see where it fits in the real world. Why would you bother, if you start out by being convinced that it is not in the real world?

And Cumorah roughly fits Cahokia, which has been subjected to archaeological exploration. So why hasn’t Cumorah been subjected to archaeological exploration?

Ask an archaeologist. The Church of Jesus Christ is not an archaeological institution.

As for a northern location for the book, I understand that Rod Meldrum’s contingent is quite large, and his interpretation does not do as much violence to a literal reading of the text.

Only one out of two. Mr Meldrum does have a modest following, but his interpretation does serious violence to the text. In fact his view represents a folklore Mormon view that has been in full retreat for at least sixty years now. The “Limited geography theory” (LGT) is derived from a careful reading of the text, and the only one that actually makes sense of what the text says.

By contrast, the “Global colonisation hypothesis” (GCH) or “Hemispheric geography theory” represents nothing more than popular assumptions about the text that got perpetuated by being passed around.

Please note that Mr Meldrum does not go into bat for the GCH. He’s actually adopted a Great Lakes LGT.

Why are you so opposed to that interpretation?

One word: snow.

Chariots are mentioned, as are elephants, cows, horses, wheat, oxen, flax, silk, donkeys, iron smelting, steel…

Which is a separate issue.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[SirThomasMore]

Marion G. Romney
“In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity which occurred some twenty five centuries ago–events which brought to and end the great Jaredite nation.”

This quote came from the talk that President Romney gave at October General Conference, 1975.

Oliver Cowdery

“After describing the location of the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, New York, Oliver Cowdery writes in the Messenger and Advocate, July, 1835, 'At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.”

Messenger and Advocate, July, 1835.

Bruce R. McConkie

“Both the Nephite and the Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located…in the western part of the state of New York … Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and many early brethren, who were familiar with the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.” (Mormon Doctrine; pg. 174.)

Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, pp. 232-241

James E. Talmage

“The final struggles between Nephites and Lamanites were waged in the vicinity of the Hill Cumorah, in what is now the State of New York, resulting in the destruction of the Nephites as a nation, about 400 A.D. The last Nephite representative was Moroni, who, wandering for safety from place to place, daily expecting death from the victorious Lamanites, wrote the concluding parts of the Book of Mormon, and hid the record in Cumorah. It was the same Moroni who as a resurrected being, gave the records into the hands of Joseph Smith in the present dispensation.”

Articles of Faith, Ch 14, Pg. 260.

Seems like Pahoran disagrees with all these LDS leaders.

Of course, for Pahoran to be correct, it means those guys were not prophets…

If those leaders are correct, it seems odd that the CoLDS would not excavate that area to find the remains of all those bodies

 

[Pahoran]

Marion G. Romney
“In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity which occurred some twenty five centuries ago–events which brought to and end the great Jaredite nation.”

This quote came from the talk that President Romney gave at October General Conference, 1975.

Oliver Cowdery

“After describing the location of the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, New York, Oliver Cowdery writes in the Messenger and Advocate, July, 1835, 'At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.”

Messenger and Advocate, July, 1835.

Bruce R. McConkie

“Both the Nephite and the Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located…in the western part of the state of New York … Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and many early brethren, who were familiar with the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.” (Mormon Doctrine; pg. 174.)

Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, pp. 232-241

James E. Talmage

“The final struggles between Nephites and Lamanites were waged in the vicinity of the Hill Cumorah, in what is now the State of New York, resulting in the destruction of the Nephites as a nation, about 400 A.D. The last Nephite representative was Moroni, who, wandering for safety from place to place, daily expecting death from the victorious Lamanites, wrote the concluding parts of the Book of Mormon, and hid the record in Cumorah. It was the same Moroni who as a resurrected being, gave the records into the hands of Joseph Smith in the present dispensation.”

Articles of Faith, Ch 14, Pg. 260.

Seems like Pahoran disagrees with all these LDS leaders.

That’s right. I have considered questions that they did not think about, and have come to conclusions that do not match the assumptions that it never occurred to them to question.

Of course, for Pahoran to be correct, it means those guys were not prophets…

Do you agree with Moses that hares are ruminants, or was he not a prophet?

You will try to dismiss that as a “dodge” (of course) but I want to know whether you are operating on a single or a double standard here.

You see, I know that hares are not ruminants, and I believe that Moses was a prophet.

Not one of the above quotes claims to be giving revealed truth. Not one of them.

Therefore, they do not rise to the standard of being prophetic statements.

Therefore, I as a Latter-day Saint am free to disagree with them and still sustain those men as prophets; and it is grossly dishonest for you to claim otherwise.

If those leaders are correct, it seems odd that the CoLDS would not excavate that area to find the remains of all those bodies

The Church of Jesus Christ is not an archaeological institution.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[SirThomasMore]

That’s right. I have considered questions that they did not think about, and have come to conclusions that do not match the assumptions that it never occurred to them to question.

lolololololol…I forgot…when an LDS prophet is right, it was prophetic. When it is wrong, it was not prophetic. Nice try. Too many of them said it. And God would NEVER let them be wrong about something like that…

unless they were false prophets. Oh…thats right. They WERE false prophets

The Church of Jesus Christ is not an archaeological institution.

lolo…yet they have sponsored many archelogical digs. Nice try. You lost again

 

[Pahoran]

Not relevant. They were “prophets” they did not have to question. They spoke directly to God. So, again, either they are liars and not prophets, or you are wrong. Which is it?

Fallacy of the false dilemma. Also a straw man. You are inventing a doctrine of prophets that the Church of Jesus Christ does not hold.

I take this as a “tacit admission” that you know the real LDS doctrine in question is unassailable by your sophomoric quote-mining exercises.

Additionally, how in the heck do you know what they thought about?

That’s the first intelligent thing I’ve seen you say in all of your posts.

I know it by what they talked about. Thank you for asking.

RED HERRING ALERT!!! It is not important to the conversation of what someone said in Hebrew thousands of years ago. We are talking about what American said just a few years ago in English. No translation issues, not time issues. Nice try with the red herring, though

That is not a red herring. There are no translation issues in view. The Bible says that hares chew the cud (are ruminants). “Time issues” are irrelevant; hares have never been ruminants.

In calling my counter-argument a “red herring” you are making yet another of your many brazen false accusations.

Clearly you are unwilling to apply the same standards to prophets you accept as you boorishly attempt to impose upon prophets you reject.

lolololololol…I forgot…when an LDS prophet is right, it was prophetic. When it is wrong, it was not prophetic.

Given that you can read plain English, I can only conclude that you have intentionally misrepresented my position.

In fact you didn’t even try to address my position. I take that as a “tacit admission” that you cannot; that’s why you had to fabricate a position I do not hold, and attack that instead.

Here again is the position you cannot deal with:

Not one of the above quotes claims to be giving revealed truth. Not one of them.

Therefore, they do not rise to the standard of being prophetic statements.

Go on; try to deal with it.

Just try.

You know you can’t.

Nice try. Too many of them said it.

Really? How many is too many? What’s the magic number?

And from what LDS source do you find it?

And God would NEVER let them be wrong about something like that…

Really?

Call for references, please. From what LDS source do you find that doctrine?

yet they have sponsored many archelogical digs. Nice try. You lost again

Do you really think you can win arguments just by thumping your chest and shouting that you’ve won?

The NWAF is/was partly funded by BYU. BYU is not the Church. And the Church is not the NWAF.

You really aren’t capable of having an adult discussion, are you?

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[SirThomasMore]

Fallacy of the false dilemma. Also a straw man. You are inventing a doctrine of prophets that the Church of Jesus Christ does not hold.

 

[Returning_Home]

That’s right. I have considered questions that they did not think about, and have come to conclusions that do not match the assumptions that it never occurred to them to question.

Not one of the above quotes claims to be giving revealed truth. Not one of them.

Therefore, they do not rise to the standard of being prophetic statements.

Therefore, I as a Latter-day Saint am free to disagree with them and still sustain those men as prophets; and it is grossly dishonest for you to claim otherwise.

Since the church is allegedly lead by Jesus Christ himself, why would he permit members of his one true church to say things that would otherwise confuse and potentially mislead its members? I thought the church was supposed to be a restoration, but if he went through all of that trouble and still keep it together, he’s doing a pretty poor job about it all.

Then again, your decision to believe parts of what these men have said and discard others is the same as believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God in spite of never having made one correct prophecy. Truth, in Mormonism, is relative to the point at hand, and has no basis in fact or reality.

 

[Returning_Home]

One thing that puzzles me is that this forum apparently frowns on saying things that are “uncharitable.” And yet, here I see uncharitableness taken to its nadir:

It begins with the simple acknowledgement that the mere fact that you don’t believe something is no reflection upon those who do.

Next comes the rather simple acceptance of the rather simple fact that if others profess to believe something, the most likely explanation is because they do.

I agree here; you made your case and I believe that you believe it. Now the bad news: that you’re a Mormon, it’s fair to assume that you accept the BOM as fact, and as such, you must believe the words that all of us here belong to the church founded by Satan (1 Nephi 14) and that all we do is an abomination before God (JS-History 1:18). Please explain to me how that’s charitable on your part.

Well, the words of PT Barnum come to mind here. Good works mean nothing in regards to salvation according to the BOM; grace is sufficient for salvation.

The common misconception that works are equal to faith is rife in Mormonism; in reality, good works are an outgrowth of faith, not the other way around.

[/QUOTE]

 

[SirThomasMore]

Well, Pahoran disagrees with an all-star cast of his prophets and aspostles

“The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening.” (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

“Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites.” (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62)

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his’ son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

“Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years. – That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord.” (The Latter-day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate, Vol.2, No.2, p.221)

“The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York .” (Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14)

"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, “by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all.” Mormon adds: “And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.”

 

[SirThomasMore]

continued:

It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

“Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history…” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)

"In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation .

[Editor’s Note: About 20 short paragraphs later this speaker says the following]

“This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’” (Talk given by President Marion G. Romney in General Conference, October 4, 1975, Ensign Nov. 1975 pg. 35)

"Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York.

“Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.”(Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 174-175, Bookcraft 1966)

"This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same ‘hill’ marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this ‘hill’ was called the ‘Hill Cumorah,’ by the Jaredites the ‘Hill Ramah’; it was that same ‘hill,’ in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the ‘Mormon Hill,’ of today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York. (B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277)

 

[Returning_Home]

“The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening.” (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

And since you found these other excellent quotes, he finds himself in a world of trouble because he went a long way to prove that Mormon scripture surpasses what we find in the four standard works. He opened the door to include the JOD, which, as we all know, calls itself scripture.

Maybe that’s why we haven’t seen him for the last few days.

 

[SirThomasMore]

And since you found these other excellent quotes, he finds himself in a world of trouble because he went a long way to prove that Mormon scripture surpasses what we find in the four standard works. He opened the door to include the JOD, which, as we all know, calls itself scripture.

Maybe that’s why we haven’t seen him for the last few days.

now I have made the mod mad over there. I have them stumped, so they get angry

 

[LongJourney]

Maybe they are angry because of my refusal to post there (except on a hit-and-run), and your respect for my decision.

 

[dianaiad]

Maybe they are angry because of my refusal to post there (except on a hit-and-run), and your respect for my decision.

Is there a forum anywhere that respects hit and run posts and posters?

 

[twopekinguys]

now I have made the mod mad over there. I have them stumped, so they get angry

You’re worried about the mods over there?

I like the way they throw their own commentary into the mix, but yet let the off topic gossip continue in an open thread.

It wouldn’t doesn’t happen over here.

 

[SirThomasMore]

You’re worried about the mods over there?

I like the way they throw their own commentary into the mix, but yet let the off topic gossip continue in an open thread.

It wouldn’t doesn’t happen over here.

nope…I am amused by them. I can be called names and have rude things said to me by LDS and nothing happens.

But I say something like, “Your prophets, you know, the guys who talk to God?” and I get chastized by a mod.

On another note, you know whyme? The guy who said he was Catholic and lector? His icon on the LDS Board is Joseph Smith. He bashes Catholics over there. Dishonesty is a way of life in that denomination since the days of conning folks by seeking for buried treasure and having 9 versions of a first vision

 

[SirThomasMore]

lol…whyme is doing as I knew he would. After he got beaten and exposed over here, he is obsessing over me over there. He can;t even post on topic…every post is an attack.

I am loving it.

And all because I have shown them that their prophets are not prophets

 

[twopekinguys]

lol…whyme is doing as I knew he would. After he got beaten and exposed over here, he is obsessing over me over there. He can;t even post on topic…every post is an attack.

I am loving it.

And all because I have shown them that their prophets are not prophets

He’s a joke.

 

[Pahoran]

Since the church is allegedly lead by Jesus Christ himself, why would he permit members of his one true church to say things that would otherwise confuse and potentially mislead its members?

Your question is answered in this thread.

I thought the church was supposed to be a restoration, but if he went through all of that trouble and still keep it together, he’s doing a pretty poor job about it all.

Actually I think He is doing a bang-up job.

Then again, your decision to believe parts of what these men have said and discard others is the same as believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God in spite of never having made one correct prophecy. Truth, in Mormonism, is relative to the point at hand, and has no basis in fact or reality.

Your opinion, and its actual worth, is noted.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Returning_Home]

Your question is answered in this thread.

First, it’s rude to post a link as answer to something and second, I’ve already addressed the major problems of your position on that thread. If this thread gets closed, it’s not gonna be because I went off topic.

Actually I think He is doing a bang-up job.

Let’s clarify this; we’re talking about the same jesus (intentional small j) who didn’t bother to let the church leadership know that Mark Hofmann was scamming them with embarrassing forged documents and murdering a faithful member of his church? The same jesus who didn’t mind having Ted Bundy as a member? *That *jesus?

In that case, I’ll stick with the Biblical Jesus, thanks.

Your opinion, and its actual worth, is noted.

It’s actually not my mere opinion that Smith never made a correct prophecy; you have nothing to work with here and we both know it. I assume you’ll respond with the Civil War prophecy or something else equally lame. I invite you to do your best with your next reply.