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A.Pelliccio
Guest
I travelled on Carnival last year twice and their was no Priest on either.
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Petergee
Guest
The excuse given is "“out of respect for our guests of all religious faiths,” priests, Protestant ministers and rabbis would be furnished only for “the major high holy holidays of each respective faith.”
Does the cruise company really expect us to believe that there are some people who feel “disrespected” when they find out that there are some Catholics somewhere on the enormous ship going to Mass and the sacraments?
Does the cruise company really expect us to believe that there are some people who feel “disrespected” when they find out that there are some Catholics somewhere on the enormous ship going to Mass and the sacraments?
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LilyM
Guest
I don’t think that’s the issue - it’s more that if they provide for one faith they feel obligated to provide for all the other major faiths.
I mean wouldn’t you be a bit miffed if a cruise ship had employed Muslim and Jewish clerics but not a Catholic priest? And even more so if they actually had other Christian priests as well (say an Orthodox and an Anglican) but no Catholic?
That’s how our brother Christians and non-Christians might feel if other denominations are catered to but not their own. The issues would lie with non-Catholics rather than the non-religious.
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manualman
Guest
It’s not about loss of respect folks. It was NEVER about respect.
Cruise lines once routinely found ways to get priests aboard, either by employing retired ones or offering a free cruise to a priest on sabbatical. Did they do thise because the corporation highly esteemed catholicism? No! They did it because at the time, many catholics wouldn’t be interested in a cruise if it meant they’d not have at least Sunday masses available. It was all about marketing and appealing to maximum demographics.
Today’s typical catholic is NOT going to pass on a cruise because mass isn’t offered aboard. Sad, but true.
The cruise lines didn’t change. We did.
Cruise lines once routinely found ways to get priests aboard, either by employing retired ones or offering a free cruise to a priest on sabbatical. Did they do thise because the corporation highly esteemed catholicism? No! They did it because at the time, many catholics wouldn’t be interested in a cruise if it meant they’d not have at least Sunday masses available. It was all about marketing and appealing to maximum demographics.
Today’s typical catholic is NOT going to pass on a cruise because mass isn’t offered aboard. Sad, but true.
The cruise lines didn’t change. We did.
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dixieagle
Guest
Right on target, sadly.It’s not about loss of respect folks. It was NEVER about respect.
Cruise lines once routinely found ways to get priests aboard, either by employing retired ones or offering a free cruise to a priest on sabbatical. Did they do thise because the corporation highly esteemed catholicism? No! They did it because at the time, many catholics wouldn’t be interested in a cruise if it meant they’d not have at least Sunday masses available. It was all about marketing and appealing to maximum demographics.
Today’s typical catholic is NOT going to pass on a cruise because mass isn’t offered aboard. Sad, but true.
The cruise lines didn’t change. We did.
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Petergee
Guest
There’s several other issues here besides a simplistic politically correct idea of treating all religions superficially the same.
Firstly Catholicism is by far the largest religion in the US. I wouldn’t be miffed at all if I was on a cruise catering mainly to Swedes, Israelis or Turks, and the only chaplain provided was Lutheran, Jewish or Moslem respectively.
Secondly Catholicism differs from the other major religions in that it teaches that it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to deliberately miss Mass on Sundays and HDOs. Most non-Catholics know this and understand the reasons why their Catholic acquaintances HAVE to attend Mass. (Yes I know we are not obliged to attend if we can’t, but then we don’t HAVE to go on a pleasure cruise; it’s not like when you’re travelling for business or family obligations or other essential reasons and the travel schedule doesn’t allow time for you to get to Mass, for reasons beyond your control.)
Just as I don’t get miffed by the fact that many tourist spots, airports etc have a Moslem prayer room but no specific room for other faiths, because I know that Islam demands that its adherents must pray certain prayers in a separate room at five fixed times every day.
And also unlike protestantism, Islam and Judaism which can be practised by any group of lay people without needing a priest/rabbi/imam/minister, in Catholicism a priest is essential.
And how many protestant cruise passengers would turn up for daily prayers etc by a protestant minister? Basically a protestant minister would be on holiday except for one hour per week.
And how many non-Catholic groups would even be willing to provide a clergyman for such a task?
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RobbyS
Guest
Right on all counts.
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LilyM
Guest
It’s the largest in the US, but it’s not a MAJORITY religion there to anywhere near the huge extent that Lutheranism is in Sweden, Judaism is in Israel or Islam in Turkey. There are more than substantial enough populations of Jews, Muslims, non-Catholic Christians etc in the US that it undoubtedly WOULD cause concerns if cruise companies were merely to cater to Catholics.
Well, Jews, Moslems and other religions don’t use the terminology of mortal sin, but I’m sure plenty of them would agree in principle that there’s an incredibly serious and binding obligation to go to mosque on Friday, synagogue on Saturday or church services on Sunday. And I’m sure plenty would agree that it puts their souls at grave risk to fail to do so where it’s possible. In other words that it’s de facto a mortal sin to skip worship.
Don’t need a clergyman to conduct worship? Can’t speak for Jews or Muslims on that issue, but if my understanding of the higher-church branches of Anglicanism is correct, they wouldn’t believe that an unordained person could celebrate the Eucharist either, nor that anything short of Mass celebrated by a priest would be appropriate for a Sunday. I think you’re painting too broad a picture of our non-Catholic Christian brothers.
That’s not an argument - few Catholics would turn up for daily prayers or Mass either!
I don’t know, and I suspect you don’t either, which makes this comment a red herring.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
It’s all a question of money.
If huge numbers of Catholics said “I won’t go on a cruise unless there is a priest aboard so I can go to Mass” then the cruise line would compare the cost of a priest vs. the cost of losing passengers and would make sure there was a priest if it was cost effective.
If one cruise line offers Mass and attracts many more passengers as a result, then others will also make sure Mass is available. On the other hand, if Catholic passengers book cruises either way, then why should the company spend the money?
The same would hold true for Jews who want kosher food or parents who want child care or any other group wanting some kind of accommodation. If the increase in passengers is greater than the cost of the service, then business sense says you provide the service and reap the benefits.
I think there was a time when Catholics would not have considered a trip that would have prevented them from attending Mass. Today I don’t think that still holds true.
If huge numbers of Catholics said “I won’t go on a cruise unless there is a priest aboard so I can go to Mass” then the cruise line would compare the cost of a priest vs. the cost of losing passengers and would make sure there was a priest if it was cost effective.
If one cruise line offers Mass and attracts many more passengers as a result, then others will also make sure Mass is available. On the other hand, if Catholic passengers book cruises either way, then why should the company spend the money?
The same would hold true for Jews who want kosher food or parents who want child care or any other group wanting some kind of accommodation. If the increase in passengers is greater than the cost of the service, then business sense says you provide the service and reap the benefits.
I think there was a time when Catholics would not have considered a trip that would have prevented them from attending Mass. Today I don’t think that still holds true.
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Petergee
Guest
Except for a few very small fringe groups such as the Jehovahs Witnesses (who probably would not go on a cruise unless it was an all-JW affair) I know that is definitely not true of protestants, Moslems or Jews. Turning up each and every week is definitely not obligatory. They take pride in the fact that it’s not.
True, although most high-church Anglicans do not consider themselves “protestants” the term generally includes them. Sorry for not being specific enough. My general point stands.
About 50 Catholics turn up to daily Mass in my parish. All the protestant churches in my suburb have no religious activity there on any day but Sunday. That seems to be pretty typical.
It’s not a comment, it’s a question.
Another reason for “special treatment” of Catholics in this respect is that if a Catholic is suddenly in danger of death (not unlikely given the number of elderly people on many cruises) he NEEDS a priest to give him the last rites, especially if he is not in a state of grace. Again, there is no equivalent need for a clergyman in any other major religion.
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Petergee
Guest
True, I chose those three obvious examples to illustrate the point. Catholics comprise 25% of the US population and the next largest religious group (Baptists) comprise 15% (bearing in mind that there are divisions among Baptists such that a minister from one group would not be acceptable to some members of other groups of Baptists). The third largest group is “Christian not further specified” with 7%, some of whom are presumably Catholic, and most of the others presumably non-Catholics to whom a Catholic priest is acceptable as a Christian chaplain. So it is at least arguable merely on a numbers basis, that if the cruise company can only provide one chaplain, then that chaplain should be Catholic.
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LilyM
Guest
We’d be lucky to have 5 to 10 at my local parish.
Living in a large city as I do (and I suspect you do too), there are SOME other parishes where there are more - those that are close to the CBD and hence attract workers from all areas of the city who happen to work in the CBD and hence don’t go to daily Mass in their home parishes.
For this reason there are a fair percentage (probably 1/5 or 1/4) of parishes that don’t have daily Mass at all in this archdiocese as well. And none but that handful in the CBD would have anything like 50 attendees.
So no, it is NOT typical, on average, for a parish to have 50 people at daily Mass, and I am glad for your sake that you are so blessed.
All these statistics are simply a function of having a quite large Catholic population living and/or working together in a relatively small space. Which is something you wouldn’t get on a cruise ship anyway.
Certainly your statistics are in no way representative of the general Catholic population, nor is it feasible to believe that just because 50 people turn up at your parish that on a given cruise ship there’d be anything approaching 50 Catholics wanting daily Mass.
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Karl_Keating
Guest
None of this worries people who register for a cruise sponsored by Catholic Answers. We don’t need to rely on the ship having a Catholic chaplain because we bring our own!
[Here comes the pitch:]
So, if you’re concerned that a cruise you’re eyeing might end up being chaplainless, why not consider our 2010 European cruise instead? We’ll not only have a Catholic priest but a passel of great folks such as those who frequent these forums and who listen to “Catholic Answers Live.”
Our 7-day cruise sails from Venice. Highlights include the walled Dalmatian city of Dubrovnik and Ephesus, where we’ll have Mass at the Virgin Mary’s house.
We offer two optional events: a pre-cruise tour of Venice and a post-cruise tour and pilgrimage through inland Croatia.
Full details can be found at www.catholicanswerscruise.com.
Karl
[Here comes the pitch:]
So, if you’re concerned that a cruise you’re eyeing might end up being chaplainless, why not consider our 2010 European cruise instead? We’ll not only have a Catholic priest but a passel of great folks such as those who frequent these forums and who listen to “Catholic Answers Live.”
Our 7-day cruise sails from Venice. Highlights include the walled Dalmatian city of Dubrovnik and Ephesus, where we’ll have Mass at the Virgin Mary’s house.
We offer two optional events: a pre-cruise tour of Venice and a post-cruise tour and pilgrimage through inland Croatia.
Full details can be found at www.catholicanswerscruise.com.
Karl
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LilyM
Guest
INCOMING!!! Duck for cover!!!
Seriously, a European cruise/pilgrimage sounds lovely. I will probably be moseying over to Europe in early or mid 2012, so I’ll check the cruise schedule for that time when it comes out.
Being of Croatian extraction I’d be spending time in that part of the world anyways.
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Petergee
Guest
That honestly surprises me if your parish and archdiocese are typical of the US. My parish is a long way from the CBD and the daily Mass attendees seem to be nearly all locals. Nearly all the parishes in our diocese have Mass at least 6 days per week. I understand that the US has a greater priests;laity ratio than we have in Aus, and that a larger proportion of the Catholic population attends Mass.
That’s not my point. I was merely refuting your claim that it’s “not an argument” the fact that protestants don’t generally even have any services on weekdays whilst Catholics do, and some (albeit a small minority) of Catholics like to attend them.
Also I suspect a lot of people are like me, they seldom attend daily Mass in their home parish because it’s impracticable with work etc, but if I was on a holiday cruise and there was daily Mass on borad I certainly would attend.
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LilyM
Guest
Petergee, I’m Australian too! Sydneysider to be precise. If memory serves you’re not from this fair city? We have a lot of historic old churches that we want to keep for that reason, but not enough parishioners or priests to justify daily Mass in some (not a huge percentage, on reflection maybe more like 10-15% than 20 or 25, but some).
Here in the city where I live there are three examples - St Patricks Church Hill, which runs Sunday but not daily Masses at St Brigids Millers Point, St Peter Julians which a few years ago also had charge of St Francis de Sales, which was used exclusively for Spanish masses on a Saturday evening and now is disused, and St Bede’s in Pyrmont, which has only Sunday Masses.
So there’s a percentage that are kept for Sunday Masses only.
I doubt that a greater proportion of American Catholics attend daily Mass than Australians, but if you have statistics to back this up I’m happy to look at them.
And PRECISELY the same could be said of travellers of all faiths - there’s no reason why Catholics are more likely than others. I’m reminded of Fiddler on the Roof “If I were a rich man … I’d have the time that I lack to sit in the synagogue and pray, seven hours every day!” fg
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Petergee
Guest
I’m a Sydneysider too.
You’re talking about **churches **(“Mass centres”) not parishes which I was clearly talking about.
The proportion of Catholcis attending weekend Mass is:
in the USA 31 or 32%%
www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2008/08-053.shtml
www.catholicity.com/…/state_of_the_church_2006.html
www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id
cara.georgetown.edu/bulletin/massattendweek.pdf
in Aus 14%
www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=7512
theage.com.au/national/older-educated-catholics-more-likely-to-go-to-mass-20080607-2n9z.html
It seems a reasonable corollary to conclude that the proportion of Catholics attending weekday Mass in the US is also about 2 and a half times the proportion who do so in Aus.
True, but that doesn’t alter my pioint that protestant ministers generally don’t even conduct services on weekdays.
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Petergee
Guest
And in fact in both countries 15% of weekend Mass attenders say that they attend Mass “more than once a week”.
ppo.catholic.org.au/pdf/BD%20SSSR%202002%20paper.pdf
(table on page 7).
So that means (assuming that the number who attend weekday Mass but not Sunday Mass is negligible) that about 5% of American Catholics and about 2% of Australian Catholics attend at least one weekday Mass every week.
ppo.catholic.org.au/pdf/BD%20SSSR%202002%20paper.pdf
(table on page 7).
So that means (assuming that the number who attend weekday Mass but not Sunday Mass is negligible) that about 5% of American Catholics and about 2% of Australian Catholics attend at least one weekday Mass every week.
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LilyM
Guest
OK, so let’s take a reasonable size cruise ship, say it carries 1000 people. Of those, there wouldn’t be more than 25% identifying as Catholic, so probably 250 people.
Out of those 1000 people on the cruise ship, you might get a whopping 5 to 12.5 people going to Mass every day. Not that that by itself isn’t a reason to offer it.
However - would those same 5-12.5 people refuse to take the cruise because Mass wasn’t offered to them? Doubtful. And would 5-12.5 of the other passengers get quite offended if there was a Catholic priest on board to minister to the Catholics but not a cleric of their own faith for them? Almost certainly.
It may seem irrational, but people like to have their faith given an equal respect to other faiths - and that includes having clerics on hand, even (irrational but true) for those who don’t see the cleric as being an absolute necessity.
Kinda like those little country towns where all the denominations have their different churches lined up in a row next to each other on the main street - regardless of whether they consider a church necessary for Sunday worship (surely you’d think those who don’t need a cleric don’t need a church either, yah?)
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