D.A. Carson on Justification and Salvation for Protestants and Catholics

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Who on earth is D.A. Carson, and why should anyone believe him or her? I see that he or she has their Greek dictionary out, reverse-eingineering Paul’s thoughts. Peter says that the “ignorant and unstable” twist and distort Paul’s words, as they do with all of the scriptures. As well, I thought that you believed that sola scriptura, as a doctrine, was unsupportable? You seem to rely on it almost exclusively. :confused:

As a Catholic, I am struck by the almost pathological obsession with “justification” that some evangelicals and fundamentalists exhibit. As well, their sometimes smug assumption of “salvation” seems entirely premature. The conflicting and oppositional theology that exists among and between them seems to be driven by uncertainty which is overcompensated for by an increasingly common assumption of both justification as well as salvation.

Both Catholic and Orthodox have the Sacraments, and reside peacefully within them. Our faith and its fruits, combined with the Sacraments, provides us with the sure hope that Paul speaks of.
 
I never said I believeved the article. Isaid its worth considering.
 
I do not want to get sidetracked from this main topic, but could you please take the spiritual pride somewhere that you can repent before God and love your neighbor, even your enemy.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
I do not want to get sidetracked from this main topic, but could you please take the spiritual pride somewhere that you can repent before God and love your neighbor, even your enemy.
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It is not pride simply to believe you are right.
 
No but you can know all mysteries and have not love. Knowledge puffs up. Of course simply believing that someone is right is not a sin but tobact proudly about it. Especially when it humiliated and insults other image bearers of God.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
No but you can know all mysteries and have not love. Knowledge puffs up. Of course simply believing that someone is right is not a sin but tobact proudly about it. Especially when it humiliated and insults other image bearers of God.
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Knowledge puffs up only if you let it.

And if people are humiliated and insulted at the suggestion that they are wrong, then they need thicker skin.
 
There is way to tell someone is wrong. Paul calls it speaking the truth in love and in humility correcting those who oppose.

If you don’t get that then God needs to open your eyes so you can repent and be saved
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
There is way to tell someone is wrong. Paul calls it speaking the truth in love and in humility correcting those who oppose.

If you don’t get that then God needs to open your eyes so you can repent and be saved
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You’re absolutely right about that, but no one here was failing to speak truth in love and humility.
 
I hope not. I feel as though the first response to my post was very quick and rude.

I never once said I supported the document. The responder assumes that he can blanket protestantism based on a the apostacy of the evangelical denominations. There are some catholics who are universalists, who believe in Islam, who refuse to evangelize, etc,etc and I happen to hear and know this much more than anything else, but I do not want to blanket Catholicism because of this. I want to repent from this judgement.

Having said that, the document argues that Joseph Fitzmyer, a Catholic New Testament Scholar, teaches that Romans 3 argues a forensic justification. That “faith” and “righteousness of God” are related just as “justified” and “faith” are and that the “death of Jesus” stands in between these two things, “justification” and the “faith” of the human being. In fact, justification is accomplished (past tense) on the sacrifice of Jesus and then received (as an already completed accomplishment) to the human being who is converted to the gospel.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
No but you can know all mysteries and have not love. Knowledge puffs up. Of course simply believing that someone is right is not a sin but tobact proudly about it. Especially when it humiliated and insults other image bearers of God.
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Are you accusing po18guy of spiritual pride? Really? Of not having love? Of acting “proudly” and humiliating and insulting other 'image bearers of God?"

Of course, before you posted that remark for all to see, I’m **sure **that you PM’d po18guy, gently asked him to consider his remarks and how they made you feel, and only when po18guy rudely flipped you the bird, metaphorically speaking, did you make said remarks. . .right? 😃 Right?

Instead of coming out and accusing people of all sorts of things, why not ask them what they meant in a kind and gentle way.

Did you really mean to humiliate and accuse a poster of ‘spiritual pride’ and acting without love without thinking to ask him about his words first? Were you so aware of the ‘effect’ on others that you failed to think of the person who angered you even though he is as much a child of God as you? Are you **sure **that your own ‘criticism’ is **spoken in love? **

Are you expecting other people to conform to a standard which you don’t meet yourself? :confused:
 
Your right I should have private messaged him. I felt insulted. And acted out of pride myself. Forgive me.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Your right I should have private messaged him. I felt insulted. And acted out of pride myself. Forgive me.
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I’m pretty sure he will. You remind me of me when I came on when this site first started up. (They MUST be forgiving in this place because I’m still here). While the kindest label they give me is probably ‘uber Catholic’, I wound up unintentionally hurting others for the same reason–when I felt insulted as a Catholic, I ‘fired from the hip’. In my “Catholic pride” I would respond. . . Scathingly. Often the original remarks weren’t even made to insult and once a few people 'PM’d" me, it was pretty darn humbling for me to realize that I wasn’t the Holy Spirit to ‘set people straight’. Once or twice, I’ve even turned out to be wrong regarding points of Catholic teaching that I was sure were “X” (and turned out not to be. 😊)

I still fire from the hip now and then 😃 but I try very hard to keep the words a bit sweeter, knowing sometimes I’m going to wind up eating them.

Anyway, keep on posting. We can all learn from each other. 🙂
 
Funny thing about pride, Catholics believe what has been revealed by the Holy Spirit through His guidence in a council. So it is hard to fall into spiritual pride when your doctrines are REVEALED truth.

Personally I think Protestantism was built on pride, whether it be Tyndale or Luther, both saying we know better than those Papist.

Pride in so called discernment of what scripture REALLY says, seems to be a non-catholic problem of the intellectual elite, or the spiritual elite, in some evangelical circles thinking, where if you don’t believe as they do, then you may never have REALLY received the Spirit of God, because if you did, you would believe this particular doctrine being espoused!

It would truly be a feat if D.A Carson can get people to follow him in his own Reformed baptist tradition, that would be a start.

calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/the-audacity-of-pope/
 
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