Dangerous biblical study

[Trebor135]

I guess I look at the saints as messengers but if I were sending a message to my father through Canada Post I wouldn’t start off by saying Dear Canada Post. You know what I am trying to get at here?

Well, Canada Post is an institution, while saints are real people who deserve some respect. Catholics/Orthodox request their intercession because those who have gone before us in faith no longer commit sin and, as James 5:16b states, “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects”.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

Firstly…are you aware of the meaning and use of the word “prayer” to a catholic and protestant?

As for your bible verse…Job 42…God actually commands someone to be prayed for…7 After the Lord had said these things to Job , he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. **My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer **and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; **and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer. **

And James 5…13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and **pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. **

Huh, so you are comparing Job having to pray for the his socalled friends with you praying directly to the Saints. Don’t see it. God was ticked at the friends and wanted to make a point that Job was far more righteous than they were and that they should stop being so self-righteous.

 

[Trebor135]

I saw it in a documentary.

I’d be interested to know how they arrived at that conclusion, though.

For the sake of argument, let’s say that Italians do give Jesus very short shrift. This doesn’t mean that requesting the intercession of the saints should be abandoned, but rather that Italians should be taught to implement the practice better.

Sorry what scriptures. I have been on multiple threads and the notifcation process on this site needs updating.

The ones from Genesis and 1 Chronicles. But I see you’ve already said something about them in another post.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

Huh, so you are comparing Job having to pray for the his socalled friends with you praying directly to the Saints. Don’t see it. God was ticked at the friends and wanted to make a point that Job was far more righteous than they were and that they should stop being so self-righteous.

So when praying to the Saints you are actually praying for the Saints to pray for you? Is that what I am understanding here? Because through the ransom sacrifice we have the ability to pray directly to God. Why take the round about way? We are to give glory to God not to the Saints. If you live a good life and then die do you want people to pray to you? I doubt it. That is not your place and you know it. None of the disciples and definitely not Mary would be comfortable having people praying to them that’s for sure.
I am not saying that they shouldn’t be respected and spoken of and listened to and their example followed I am just saying you shouldn’t be praying to them that’s all.

 

[Trebor135]

Oh sorry you want Christ to tell you all the people you can’t pray to?

No, I was asking for the verse instructing us not to request the intercession of St. Mary and the other saints in general.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

I’d be interested to know how they arrived at that conclusion, though.

For the sake of argument, let’s say that Italians do give Jesus very short shrift. This doesn’t mean that requesting the intercession of the saints should be abandoned, but rather that Italians should be taught to implement the practice better.

The ones from Genesis and 1 Chronicles. But I see you’ve already said something about them in another post.

Um…you know where the Vatican is right? Rome, Italy? If they don’t know who is going to teach them?

 

[pablope]

Huh, so you are comparing Job having to pray for the his socalled friends with you praying directly to the Saints. Don’t see it. God was ticked at the friends and wanted to make a point that Job was far more righteous than they were and that they should stop being so self-righteous.

Huh…Jod did not have to pray for them…God commanded it…from verse 8… My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer

Praying to saints is praying for intercessions…intercessory prayer…Job was going to do intercessory prayers…so that they will be forgiven.

The point of this is humility…going through someone to be forgiven requires humility.

You must have missed James 5…And James 5…13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

No, I was asking for the verse instructing us not to request the intercession of St. Mary and the other saints in general.

Jesus told us how to pray. He didn’t make any concessions for any other kind of prayer. He was very specific about who to pray to, how we should pray, the order of importance of things prayed for (hallowed be YOUR name, let YOUR will take place, then we start asking for stuff for ourselves) and who we should pray through.

What would make you think that Jesus would even imagine that would be be praying to his disciples, his brothers or his mother?

Generally it is easier to tell someone how to do something than it is to tell them how not to do something. Wouldn’t you agree?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I guess I look at the saints as messengers but if I were sending a message to my father through Canada Post I wouldn’t start off by saying Dear Canada Post. You know what I am trying to get at here?

Sure you would. The message would not start with Dear Canada Post, but the instructions on where to deliver it would.

Dear Canada Post, Please deliver this to my father xxx.

Analogous to:

Dear Saint X, Please pray for me to my Father <optionally “regarding xxx”>.

The saints could be like pickup locations; all prayers are routed through Memphis. I may feel like I’m 1000 miles from God. The Communion of Saints is like a mystical FedEx. The saints are only around by the corner drugstore so you can get right up to them and say, “please deliver this to my Father,” and they know just where to take it and what department because they are certified to be valid members of God’s Big House in the Sky.

Funny thing is, ultimately we find out that we are actually in the Father and the Father in us, just like Jesus tried to tell us for 2000 years. (Jn 17:20-21) So we don’t have to even use any words to pray to God; all we have to do is self-efface. Therein lies the trick.

Alan

 

[Riddle_me_this]

Huh…Jod did not have to pray for them…God commanded it…from verse 8… My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer

Praying to saints is praying for intercessions…intercessory prayer…Job was going to do intercessory prayers…so that they will be forgiven.

The point of this is humility…going through someone to be forgiven requires humility.

You must have missed James 5…And James 5…13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Um I think that we are forgetting that this is pre-jesus that we are talking about here. Back when the people had to pray through priests with burnt offerings. We don’t have to do that anymore.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

Sure you would. The message would not start with Dear Canada Post, but the instructions on where to deliver it would.

Dear Canada Post, Please deliver this to my father xxx.

Analogous to:

Dear Saint X, Please pray for me to my Father.

The saints could be like pickup locations; all prayers are routed through Memphis. I may feel like I’m 1000 miles from God. The Communion of Saints is like a mystical FedEx. The saints are only around by the corner drugstore so you can get right up to them and say, “please deliver this to my Father.”

Funny thing is, ultimately we find out that we are actually in the Father and the Father in us, just like Jesus tried to tell us for 2000 years. (Jn 17:20-21) So we don’t have to even use any words to pray to God; all we have to do is self-efface. Therein lies the trick.

Alan

That doesn’t make any sense. If the Father is in you than why do you feel like he is so far away from you. See you are appointing the position of Jesus to the Saints. That’s not cool. Jesus died for our sins and purchased us. We have to pray to the Father through him to show our respect and appreciation for his sacrifice.

I have to say though I do like your attitude. Your heart is definitely in the right place. I just think that it is better to be on the safe side if you know what I mean. God is jealous and we don’t need to be involving anyone else if we don’t need to.

Anyway I don’t even agree with the whole idea of going through Saints because I know for a fact that a lot of people don’t do that. They pray directly to the saints. The have pictures and little dolls or statues of the Saints that they pray to. All of this is wrong.

 

[itullian]

catholics are a family, we ask each each other to pray for each other, including the Saints.

 

[Trebor135]

So when praying to the Saints you are actually praying for the Saints to pray for you? Is that what I am understanding here?

Sure. The word “pray” can be restated as “ask”.

Because through the ransom sacrifice we have the ability to pray directly to God.

No one in this discussion has said otherwise.

Why take the round about way?

If it can actually prove helpful, why not?

We are to give glory to God not to the Saints.

Then why were the Israelites not rebuked or punished for honouring King David and worshipping God at the same time (see 1 Chronicles 29)?

If you live a good life and then die do you want people to pray to you?

If I am canonized (haha!), then I would have no problem with Christians requesting my prayers. I would rejoice at the prospect of lending still-suffering Christians on earth a hand while in heaven.

I doubt it. That is not your place and you know it.

Not at all.

None of the disciples and definitely not Mary would be comfortable having people praying to them that’s for sure.

Where’s that in the Bible?

I am not saying that they shouldn’t be respected and spoken of and listened to and their example followed I am just saying you shouldn’t be praying to them that’s all.

I fail to see why one is permitted and the other forbidden.

 

[Trebor135]

Um…you know where the Vatican is right? Rome, Italy? If they don’t know who is going to teach them?

The Vatican doesn’t determine Italy’s school curriculum–it’s a separate country, after all.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

That doesn’t make any sense. If the Father is in you than why do you feel like he is so far away from you. See you are appointing the position of Jesus to the Saints. That’s not cool. Jesus died for our sins and purchased us. We have to pray to the Father through him to show our respect and appreciation for his sacrifice.

You can also pray directly to the Father.

The problem I see about Christians not realizing that they and the Father are one, is that their eyes have not been opened yet. They may even say, “I’m born of the spirit” but you can tell they aren’t in a heartbeat. Because if they were born in the spirit, they would be renewed from their old superstitions and fears of bribes and threats – which too many of us are fed in place of true Christianity.

The Good News is not that we can live a miserable life and hope, please Dear God have mercy on me, that maybe – just maybe – I’ll be happy after I die. Sorry, but Homey don’t play dat. Jesus’s true Good News is that if we quit fighting his advice (I used the word advice instead of commands for a reason) then we can be in a kingdom now where there truly is no judgment, there is peace, joy, fulfillment, all the good things – and before you leave this earth. St. John of the Cross documented the process that basically accomplishes purgatory while we’re alive and puts us in the kingdom. Other religions have the same type of breakthrough they guide people toward with varying success, but they have different names for it. Some think I listen too much to heretics; I ask, haven’t we killed heretics only to canonize them later?

Alan

 

[Riddle_me_this]

inaccurate translations that were translated not true to original language but twisted to prove someone’s point such as the JW Bible.

Yeah but wasn’t it you that just said that Catholics can’t twist the word and that it is protected. So again what was he worried about. And why would a Pope actually have someones bones dug up, crushed to power and thrown in a river after him being dead for 44 years. Doesn’t the bible say something about holding grudge?

 

[Trebor135]

Jesus told us how to pray. He didn’t make any concessions for any other kind of prayer. He was very specific about who to pray to, how we should pray, the order of importance of things prayed for (hallowed be YOUR name, let YOUR will take place, then we start asking for stuff for ourselves) and who we should pray through.

Then I sure hope you don’t pray to the Holy Spirit. To the best of my knowledge, neither Jesus nor any of the New Testament writers instruct us to do so.

What would make you think that Jesus would even imagine that would be be praying to his disciples, his brothers or his mother?

Jesus said, “`I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’.] He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matthew 22:32) If we’re all a family, why are we prohibited to speak to anyone else in the palace than the king?

Generally it is easier to tell someone how to do something than it is to tell them how not to do something. Wouldn’t you agree?

True. But you seemed to have said that Jesus actually forbade requesting the intercession of St. Mary and the saints.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

You can also pray directly to the Father.

The problem I see about Christians not realizing that they and the Father are one, is that their eyes have not been opened yet. They may even say, “I’m born of the spirit” but you can tell they aren’t in a heartbeat. Because if they were born in the spirit, they would be renewed from their old superstitions and fears of bribes and threats – which too many of us are fed in place of true Christianity.

The Good News is not that we can live a miserable life and hope, please Dear God have mercy on me, that maybe – just maybe – I’ll be happy after I die. Sorry, but Homey don’t play dat. Jesus’s true Good News is that if we quit fighting his advice (I used the word advice instead of commands for a reason) then we can be in a kingdom now where there truly is no judgment, there is peace, joy, fulfillment, all the good things – and before you leave this earth. St. John of the Cross documented the process that basically accomplishes purgatory while we’re alive and puts us in the kingdom. Other religions have the same type of breakthrough they more or less guide people toward, but they have different names for it. Some think I listen too much to heretics; I ask, haven’t we killed heretics only to canonize them later?

Alan

Yes I totally agree but Jesus did tell the criminal next to him on the torture stake or cross that he would be with him in paradise.
By our perception of things now though you are absolutely right that we can have a peace beyond what is normal even when being persecuted. In fact that bible tells us that we should be happy that we are being persecuted for the name of God.
I often pray that when confronted about my faith I will have the ability as Jesus and his disciples did to stand up for what I believe in without getting angry or losing that peace. I even see people losing it when I talk with them on different sites and I know that they don’t have the right heart condition.
I have to say that I do notice that you are very pleasant and calm and still able to express your thoughts and opinions. Very commendable.

 

[pablope]

Um I think that we are forgetting that this is pre-jesus that we are talking about here. Back when the people had to pray through priests with burnt offerings. We don’t have to do that anymore.

No…I did not forget this is pre-Jesus…it is a forerunner of the sacrament of confession.

Look at it again…The offense or sin of Eliphaz…7 After the Lord had said these things to Job , he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.

God’s commands…8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. …My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.”

Their obedience…9 So Eliphaz the Temanit…e, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them;

God’s action…and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

But this is gettin off topic…I think the OP requested to back off…so let us respect his prayer…so I suggest you start your own thread on this…

 

[Riddle_me_this]

Then I sure hope you don’t pray to the Holy Spirit. To the best of my knowledge, neither Jesus nor any of the New Testament writers instruct us to do so.

Jesus said, “`I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matthew 22:32) If we’re all a family, why are we prohibited to speak to anyone else in the palace than the king?

True. But you seemed to say that Jesus actually forbade requesting the intercession of St. Mary and the saints.

There were no Saints yet remember and no I don’t pray TO the Holy Spirit but I pray (as the bible tells us to) FOR Holy Spirit. Just as Paul told the disciples of the John the Baptizer when they told him they didn’t know anything about the Holy Spirit.