Daniel 2 Prophecy Regarding the Catholic Church

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Dr. Taylor Marshall lays out an interesting argument here: taylormarshall.com/2014/07/roman-church-prophesied-old-testament.html#more-5324

I’d like to present the essence of his case and to expand upon it a bit.

Prophecy Concerning the Catholic Church in Daniel 2

Daniel 2:31-49
31 “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them.
35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.


36 “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle.43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.

“The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honor and ordered that an offering and incense be presented to him. 47 The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.”

48 Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men. 49 Moreover, at Daniel’s request the king appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego administrators over the province of Babylon, while Daniel himself remained at the royal court.

+++

This chapter describes a dream of Nebuchadnezzar about an enormous statue composed of four different materials. First, the head was of gold. Second, the chest and arms were of silver. Third, the belly and thighs were of bronze. Fourth, the legs and feet were of iron and clay. According to the vision, a stone will be hewn from a mountain without human hands and cast into the statue. This small rock smashes against the statue’s iron and clay feet, which causes the entire statue to crumble. Then the small rock becomes a great mountain and fills the entire earth.

Looking in back in time, we understand the prophecy as corresponding to the following historical chronology when heathen kingdoms ruled over the Jews:
  1. Babylonian Empire (ca. 587-539 B.C.)
  2. Medo-Persian Empire (ca. 539-331 B.C.)
  3. Greek Empire (ca. 331-168 B.C.)
  4. Roman Empire (ca. 63 B.C.-A.D. 70)
It was in fact in the days of the Fourth Kingdom, the Roman Empire, that God established His Messianic Kingdom.

Now, the small rock, “not made by human hands”, destroyed the last kingdom, the Roman Empire, and filled the earth. But Jesus Himself is no small rock, is He? So, what other reference do we have in scripture for a rock?

Matthew 16:18
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

The Catholic Church, built upon Peter, the rock, formed by revelation from God and not from “flesh and blood” (i.e., “human hands”) is the lasting kingdom set up by God “that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another (i.e., Protestant) people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.”

We have the sure word of God on that.
 
I’m pretty sure Dr Hahn, Dr Bergsma and Dr Pitre also discuss this, possibly in the “Splendor of the Church” audio bible study. Cool 🙂
 
When I read this prophecy I see two things. The first is the metal or element, which is the constitution. The second is a physical body part. So there are two lists gold, silver, bronze, iron and partly clay. Five in total. The other list is physical, head, chest, arms, belly, thighs, legs, feet. Seven in total.

A particular kingdom (body part) has a particular political composition (element).

The two kingdoms chest and arms are the Mede and Persian kingdoms which constitute the political Medo-Persian, their political constitution was the same but they were different kingdoms adopting the same political nature. The Belly and thighs are the kings of the north and the south, two different kingdoms which both constitute the political Grecian political system. The feet mixed with clay, I believe to be a mingling of Roman political constitution mixed with Emperor (man made from clay) worship.

Emperor worship (clay) weakened the Roman iron (the state) that lead to its ultimate demise when juxtaposed with the Catholic Church offer of Jesus Christ.

Hope that makes sense.
 
I have never thought about that.
There is a growing body of scholars who hold to a late-date composition of Daniel (165 BC +/-), inasmuch as the author knew a lot of detail about the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who was the oppressive Seleucid king during the Maccabean revolt. The import of this is that it believes Daniel to have been composed during the Deuterocanonical time frame. For Catholics and Orthodox, this is relatively unimportant. But, for those who reject the Deuterocanon, it could be huge, as it would force a re-think of those books.
 
There is a growing body of scholars who hold to a late-date composition of Daniel (165 BC +/-), inasmuch as the author knew a lot of detail about the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who was the oppressive Seleucid king during the Maccabean revolt. The import of this is that it believes Daniel to have been composed during the Deuterocanonical time frame. For Catholics and Orthodox, this is relatively unimportant. But, for those who reject the Deuterocanon, it could be huge, as it would force a re-think of those books.
I don’t find “knowledge” of a history to be a good reason to force the writing post-event. Daniel 11 no? That is why it is called prophecy. In fact if I did take that “scholarly” preconceived path that knowledge can only be obtained post-event, I would have to post date all chapters written about Jesus Christ, including half of Zechariah, a large chunk of Isaiah, many Psalms, and many other minor prophets until after the death of Jesus Christ, which makes the retrospective prophecy thing a farce. If that approach is “scholar”, I shudder to thing what “theologian” means.
 
I don’t find “knowledge” of a history to be a good reason to force the writing post-event. Daniel 11 no? That is why it is called prophecy. In fact if I did take that “scholarly” preconceived path that knowledge can only be obtained post-event, I would have to post date all chapters written about Jesus Christ, including half of Zechariah, a large chunk of Isaiah, many Psalms, and many other minor prophets until after the death of Jesus Christ, which makes the retrospective prophecy thing a farce. If that approach is “scholar”, I shudder to thing what “theologian” means.
Do not think that I am beholden to modernism. Quite the opposite. My point is that prophecy rarely if ever contains specific details, but rather generalizations and principles by which something will happen. Thus, because of relatively detailed information in Daniel, it appears that it may have been written contemporaneous with the Maccabean revolt - being a response to the horrible oppression of the Seleucid king. No one knows who the author was, or when it was written. It purported to be written during the Babylonian exile, but it is both an apocalypse as well as a prophetic book. It is not a historical book, and so may very well have been written much later than the exile.

Daniel is the first OT book to specifically mention the resurrection and eternal life. So does 2 Maccabees. But, consider that if Daniel was written about 587 BC (during the Babylonian exile), why do none of the prophets who followed him mention either subject? In my thinking, Daniel is specifically preparatory for the Incarnation, as are the Deuterocanonical books.

I learned of the “late date Daniel” theory from the writings of Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J. You will be hard pressed to find a single molecule of modernism in him.
 
Do not think that I am beholden to modernism. Quite the opposite. My point is that prophecy rarely if ever contains specific details, but rather generalizations and principles by which something will happen. Thus, because of relatively detailed information in Daniel, it appears that it may have been written contemporaneous with the Maccabean revolt - being a response to the horrible oppression of the Seleucid king. No one knows who the author was, or when it was written. It purported to be written during the Babylonian exile, but it is both an apocalypse as well as a prophetic book. It is not a historical book, and so may very well have been written much later than the exile.

Daniel is the first OT book to specifically mention the resurrection and eternal life. So does 2 Maccabees. But, consider that if Daniel was written about 587 BC (during the Babylonian exile), why do none of the prophets who followed him mention either subject? In my thinking, Daniel is specifically preparatory for the Incarnation, as are the Deuterocanonical books.

I learned of the “late date Daniel” theory from the writings of Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J. You will be hard pressed to find a single molecule of modernism in him.
I am in a position where I have Matthew 24:15 a passage that according to Jesus Christ, who knows all things refers to Daniel as “a prophet” and hence a person and at the same time validates Daniel. I can think of a reason why Daniel the book took so long to get down to Israel. Time.
 
On the blog site that is linked in the OP, it is quite interesting to see the reactions of various readers. Some are clearly protestant and simply disagree, since they default against the Church. The incessant bickering over Kepha/Kepa/Petros/Lithos is amusing. Yet, which is the oldest organization on earth?
 
I’m pretty sure Dr Hahn, Dr Bergsma and Dr Pitre also discuss this, possibly in the “Splendor of the Church” audio bible study. Cool 🙂
I know that Dr. Hahn discusses this in “The End”, the Bible Study on Revelation. I must’ve heard it elsewhere, too, since I distinctly remember his discussing that this was a likely reason why the Apostles were eager to go to Rome, understanding this prophesy.

Further, each of the other kingdoms’ leaders experienced some conversion to the God of Israel, if only temporarily. They fully expected to convert Rome.
 
Is this the reason why the Jews expected a political Messiah to free them from the Romans?
 
yes could this be the beginning of the Great whore of bablion

Doug Batchelor Analyzes Pope’s Recent Threat of 'Unity or Else"
Published on Feb 28, 2014

Pastor Doug Batchelor Analyzes the Pope’s Threat to Protestants “Unity or Else.”

Is the ‘Protest’ really OVER…Anglican Tony Palmer, Kenneth Copeland, Pope Francis

youtu.be/7kgxEvIDoGs
  1. Roman Empire (ca. 63 B.C.-A.D. 70)
It 4. Roman Empire (ca. 63 B.C.-A.D. 70)

It was in fact in the days of the Fourth Kingdom, the Roman Empire, that God established His Messianic Kingdom.

Now, -]the small rock, “not made by human hands”/-], destroyed the last kingdom, the Roman Empire, and filled the earth. But Jesus Himself is no small rock, is He? So, what other reference do we have in scripture for a rock?
Code:
Matthew 16:18
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that

yo-]u are Peter, and on this rock/-]

I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
-] The Catholic Church, built upon Peter, the rock,/-]

formed by revelation from God and not from “flesh and blood” (i.e., “human hands”) is the lasting kingdom set up by God “that will never be destroyed,

-] nor will it be left to another (i.e., Protestant) people./-]
Code:
<<<< When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”

48 “How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.

Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.”

49 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”

50 Jesus said, “You believe[h] because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that.” 51 He then added, “Very truly I tell you,* you[j] will see ‘heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on’[k] the Son of Man.”>>>>>

but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that
-] you are Peter, and on this rock /-]

<<<<<“Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”
Code:
I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
-] The Catholic Church, built upon Peter, the rock,
/-]

formed by revelation from God an-]d not from “flesh and blood” (i.e., “human hands”)/-]
is the lasting kingdom set up by God “that will never be destroyed,

-] nor will it be left to another (i.e., Protestant) people./-]

It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.”

We have the sure word of God on that.*
 
Doug Batchelor Analyzes Pope’s Recent Threat of 'Unity or Else" .
Before you are escorted to the door, where did Doug Batchelor get his authority to say anything - anything at all?

Why is the SDA so filled with mis-information?

Answer: IMO, the liar and father of lies.
 
Dr. Taylor Marshall lays out an interesting argument here: taylormarshall.com/2014/07/roman-church-prophesied-old-testament.html#more-5324

I’d like to present the essence of his case and to expand upon it a bit.

Prophecy Concerning the Catholic Church in Daniel 2

Daniel 2:31-49
31 “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them.
35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.


36 “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle.43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.

“The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honor and ordered that an offering and incense be presented to him. 47 The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.”

48 Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men. 49 Moreover, at Daniel’s request the king appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego administrators over the province of Babylon, while Daniel himself remained at the royal court.

+++

This chapter describes a dream of Nebuchadnezzar about an enormous statue composed of four different materials. First, the head was of gold. Second, the chest and arms were of silver. Third, the belly and thighs were of bronze. Fourth, the legs and feet were of iron and clay. According to the vision, a stone will be hewn from a mountain without human hands and cast into the statue. This small rock smashes against the statue’s iron and clay feet, which causes the entire statue to crumble. Then the small rock becomes a great mountain and fills the entire earth.

Looking in back in time, we understand the prophecy as corresponding to the following historical chronology when heathen kingdoms ruled over the Jews:
  1. Babylonian Empire (ca. 587-539 B.C.)
  2. Medo-Persian Empire (ca. 539-331 B.C.)
  3. Greek Empire (ca. 331-168 B.C.)
  4. Roman Empire (ca. 63 B.C.-A.D. 70)
It was in fact in the days of the Fourth Kingdom, the Roman Empire, that God established His Messianic Kingdom.

Now, the small rock, “not made by human hands”, destroyed the last kingdom, the Roman Empire, and filled the earth. But Jesus Himself is no small rock, is He? So, what other reference do we have in scripture for a rock?

Matthew 16:18
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

The Catholic Church, built upon Peter, the rock, formed by revelation from God and not from “flesh and blood” (i.e., “human hands”) is the lasting kingdom set up by God “that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another (i.e., Protestant) people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.”

We have the sure word of God on that.
Check but I believe Jesus is quoted as petra and petros in scripture.
 
Dr. Taylor Marshall lays out an interesting argument here: taylormarshall.com/2014/07/roman-church-prophesied-old-testament.html#more-5324

I’d like to present the essence of his case and to expand upon it a bit.

The Catholic Church, built upon Peter, the rock, formed by revelation from God and not from “flesh and blood” (i.e., “human hands”) is the lasting kingdom set up by God “that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another (i.e., Protestant) people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.”

We have the sure word of God on that.
The dream was for the babylonian king, one that he could understand. He understands government and politics and the rise and fall of such. Don’t think he would understand a “religion” or a "church " in this regard. The church is not the kingdom of God. The church is a dispensation within the Kingdom. The church will not rule forever. The church is about those who have a relationship with the Almighty. As a nation ushered in the Messiah, King of kings, the Church will usher in the Messianic kingdom on Earth upon His second return…Of course as a Catholic I would take your position. Your definition of church fits the political and government requirement for Nebuchadnezzar to understand. The CC has had secular as well as spiritual dominion over territory and much political alliance, even had a standing army at once. However, she shall not conquer the earth, in fact we are told she will be persecuted, left with the tares until his second coming, when He will set it all straight, for every Christian will have been killed in the great tribulation…Again, the final kingdom is not Catholic but comprised of OT and NT leaders/founders.
 
The dream was for the babylonian king, one that he could understand. He understands government and politics and the rise and fall of such. Don’t think he would understand a “religion” or a "church " in this regard. The church is not the kingdom of God. The church is a dispensation within the Kingdom. The church will not rule forever. The church is about those who have a relationship with the Almighty. As a nation ushered in the Messiah, King of kings, the Church will usher in the Messianic kingdom on Earth upon His second return…Of course as a Catholic I would take your position. Your definition of church fits the political and government requirement for Nebuchadnezzar to understand. The CC has had secular as well as spiritual dominion over territory and much political alliance, even had a standing army at once. However, she shall not conquer the earth, in fact we are told she will be persecuted, left with the tares until his second coming, when He will set it all straight, for every Christian will have been killed in the great tribulation…Again, the final kingdom is not Catholic but comprised of OT and NT leaders/founders.
Unless we read this as a spiritual rule and conquering. In this way, both the growing kingdom is seen as the evangelisation of the nations and its endurance forever is a prophecy to “on this Rock I build my Church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it”
 
Check but I believe Jesus is quoted as petra and petros in scripture.
In Greek written form, which has genders. Jesus spoke it in Aramaic, which does not have genders. This recent and specious argument has been addressed and destroyed multiple times in these forums. It does not comport in the least with the role of Peter in the scriptures, or in the early Church. Not one bit!
 
Unless we read this as a spiritual rule and conquering. In this way, both the growing kingdom is seen as the evangelisation of the nations and its endurance forever is a prophecy to “on this Rock I build my Church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it”
Except that would not be understandable to nebuchadnezzar. Again what is the rock in Daniel, for Jesus is both petros and petras
 
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