Daniel's 70 weeks - Need Input

[JohnPaul0]

Well, I finally had time to summarize some of the posts here, and I sent them off to the fellow.

I really like Ivebeenshown’s exegesis that the 70 weeks started from 457 BC.

Then, guess what? I was reading the proclamation of the birth of Christ on Christmas Eve, and it said that Christ was conceived “in the sixty-fith year of the prophet Daniel.” Very interesting because it places the beginning of the 70 weeks about at the beginning of Ataxerxes reign in 465 BC, which is what an early post claimed:

sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/daniel/dan-1/dan-2/dan-3/dan-4/dan-5/dan-6/dan-7/dan-8/dan-9

The problem with that date is that there is no Biblical record of a decree from Ataxerxes at that time. We’re only talking about 12 years difference from 465 to 457 BC, but the 70 weeks are supposed to be exact, so I’m officially stumped.

Whoops! Math error!

The difference between 465 BC and 457 BC is only 8 years. As a matter of fact, all the numbers come out very close to Christ being born in 2 BC, which is the end of the 65th week of Daniel if we start counting from 457 BC:

457 BC = start of 1st week.
65 weeks = 65 *7 = 455 years.
457 - 455 = 2 BC.

So, if Christ was born in 2 BC, at the end of the 65th week of Daniel, that leaves 4 weeks (28 years) until the end of the 69th week. That is exactly where Ivebeenshown places the beginning of Christ’s public ministry, in 27 BC (remember there is no year “0”), when Our Lord states that “the time is fulfilled” (Mk 1:15). Way cool!!!

-JohnPaul

 

[Daniel_Gracely]

Hi JohnPaul0,

I realize you’re seeking a Catholic response to Daniel’s 70 weeks, but I’d like to put my 2 cents in. I’m a Dispensational-leaning Evangelical who last year studied in-depth Daniel’s prophecy about when the Messiah would be crucified. I’ll give mostly my conclusions, but unpack any particular points in the future, should you wish.

First, only Artaxerxes’ decree in his 20th year specifically addresses the rebuilding of Jerusalem. Those believing it came earlier (i.e. 457 B.C., etc.) have a hard time explaining why nearly 40 verses in Nehemiah 3 detail the building of the wall of Jerusalem, if in fact it began 13 years earlier. One commentator here points to Ezra 4:21 to suggest the city was then being built. But this was a claim by the Jews’ enemies, not a fact in evidence recognized by Artaxerxes or the Jews. In fact, in Ezra 4:24 Nehemiah states that because of this complaint the Jews left off building the HOUSE (not City) of God. Furthermore, Josephus notes that the Jews’ enemies saw the incredible height of the Temple’s walls and naturally made no such fine distinction between what seemed to them the building of the fortress and the building of a city.

Others claim Cyrus, not Artaxerxes, gave the command to rebuild Jerusalem, based on 2 passages in Isaiah. I’ll unpack these in detail if you wish, but the first is only a prophecy [of Cyrus], not an order; and the second (Is. 45:13) is a Messianic passage which exhibits a change in addressement from 2nd person (in verse 1) to 3rd person (in verse 13).

Now observe further that an Egyptian papyrus dated Jan. 2, 464, is double-dated to Xerxes’ 21st year and the ascension year of Artaxerxes. This means that Artaxerxes did not ascend immediately after his father’s assassination in August 465, but ascended at some point after the 1st of Tishri (the Jews’ 7th month). The 5th century BC Jewish colony at Elephantine reckoned the anniversary of a king’s years from Tishri, not Nisan (the Jews’ 1st month). Nehemiah also reckoned years thus, because in Ne. chaps 1 and 2, Nehemiah speaks of an event in Chislev, the 9th month, and then a later event in Nisan, the 1st month, as BOTH is Artaxerxes’ 20 year. This shows that a king’s year was considered by the Jews to run from Tishri to Tishri. In summary, Artaxerxes’ 1st year of reign would have therefore commenced upon Tishri, 464, meaning his 20th year began upon Tishri, 445, with the Nisan in the 20th year falling in the spring, 444 BC. Incidentally, a near universal mistake by Dispensationalists holding to a spring, 444 BC beginning ‘bookend’ date for Daniel’s 69 weeks, is that they put it on March 5. But calendars found at Elephantine show that in 14 instances during the 5th century, Jews marked the beginning of Nisan anywhere from March 26 to April 24 (within a day). Even if we expand this parameter one or two weeks earlier, it still falls too short. Therefore Nisan in 444 BC actually began a lunar month later, about April 2 or 3, 444 BC.

If we accept the premise of a 360-day ‘prophetic’ year, (probably not the best term, as I’ll explain in a minute), the 483 years of 360 days brings us to (Julian date) Monday, April 27, 33 AD. A careful harmonization of the gospels shows that this marks the Day of the Triumphal Entry. (‘Palm Sunday’ is a church tradition. The gospels do not state that it fell on the first day of the week. Again, a careful harmonization shows it to be Monday. I’ll detail this if you wish.) Christ died on the following Friday, Julian date of May 1, 33 AD, thus “after 69 weeks” as Daniel foretold. And Christ was resurrected on Sunday, May 3, 33 AD. In terms of the proleptic-Gregorian calendar, the Julian dates of May 1 and 3 work out ‘seasonally’ to about April 28 and 29.

IMO there are two interesting things in all this. The first is that Christ thus fulfilled Old Testament symbolism of the 10th, 14th, and 16th days of Nisan during Passion Week. This is because on the 10th of Nisan the lamb was separated from the flock (i.e., Christ the Lamb of God was set apart from the rest of Israel, as he rode into Jeruslaem); the 14th of Nisan the lamb was slain (in 33 AD this happened on ‘Good Friday’); and the 16th of Nisan was the Offering of First Fruits, which stands for Resurrection.

The second interesting thing is the 360 day year. From statements about Noah’s age during the Flood, we know that the year was 360 days long at the time of the creation. It is my belief that the Jews were meant to countdown 483 years of 360 days each because the Messiah, if he were accepted when he came, intended to restore the earth as it was at the beginning. This would be part of the Messiah’s general agenda of restoration during His kingdom. In fact, Christ states on the Day of Triumphal Entry that the Jews should have known their “visitation”, and “in this thy day” the things pertaining to their peace. This was the very day that ended the 69 weeks. Thus we have the theme of Jerusalem’s rebuilding and restoration to receive the King Himself. But because the Jews missed it, they missed their Messiah.
(part 2 follows)

 

[Daniel_Gracely]

(part 2 of 2)
However, Jesus’ statement raises the question why Jesus thought the Jews should have been counting off 360-day years to begin with? For what in their history suggested they should do so? Well, it is also my belief that the exact length of the Exile was a year shy of what the Jews had anticipated, being 70 years of 360 days each. For this equals 69 years and 2 days of ‘normal’ solar years. Thus the Jews should have noted the year difference, and asked themselves why this should be. And after further reflection they should have realized that creation had a 360 days year, and that Daniel’s weeks should be understood in similar terms. Therefore the ‘prophetic’ year is really the original Divine intent for a year, because it was the length of a solar year at the time of creation. Now, of course, the Jews would have continued to observe their lunar-solar calendar as usual, in order to celebrate their feasts in their proper seasons. But as an abstract way of counting down the years in anticipation of the Messiah, they also should have been counting off 360-day years in anticipation of his coming. (Note here that Daniel in the beginning of chapter 9 states that he is reflecting on Jeremiah and when the Exile should end.) Incidentally, my study of the reign of kings in biblical and extra-biblical history seems to confirm the claim by atheists (but others, I suppose) that the Exile could not have lasted 70 ‘normal’ solar years. However, a case can be made for an Exile lasting up to 69 years and about 16 days. Thus an Exile of 69 years and 2 days is possible. This involves a lot of detail I won’t unpack here (unless asked).

Well, that is a brief summary of my study. The dates for the 69 weeks, then, are (Julian dates) April 6, 444 BC to April 27, 33 AD.

Incidentally, the derision among some commentators here, over the idea of a hiatus between the 69th and 70th weeks is unfounded. There are about a half dozen reasons why a hiatus is taught in Scripture, but this, too, I won’t unpack unless asked (as this comment is already so long!). Suffice it to say that if the 70th week was contiguous, Daniel should have stated that the Messiah would be cut off in the beginning of the 70th week, not after the 69th week. But as I say, there are other reasons as well.

 

[onemangang]

Here is a writing from Julius Africanus

Julius Africanus, the father of Christian chronography, on Daniel 9

Africanus (160-240 A.D.)
“The section thus expressed gives much strange information. But here I will make the necessary examination of the times and the matters connected with them. It is clear, then, that the coming of the Christ is foretold as to occur after seventy weeks. For in the time of our Saviour, or after His time, sins are done away and transgressions ended. And by this remission iniquities are blotted out (c) by a propitiation together with unrighteousness, eternal righteousness is published beyond that of the law, visions and prophecies (last) until John, and the Holy of holies is anointed. For these things existed in expectation only before our Saviour’s Coming. And the angel explains we must count the numbers, that is to say the seventy weeks, which are 490 years, from the going forth of the word of answer and from the building of Jerusalem. This took place in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes, King of Persia.** For Nehemiah his cup-bearer made the request**, (d) and received the answer that Jerusalem should be rebuilt, and the order went forth to carry it out. For till that date the city lay desolate. For when Cyrus after the seventieth year of the Captivity spontaneously allowed every one who wished to return, those with Joshua the High Priest and Zerubbabel went back, and those afterwards with Ezra, and were at first prevented from building the Temple, and the wall of the City, as no order had been given for it; and so |125 there was a delay until Nehemiah and the reign of Artaxerxes and the one hundred and fifteenth year of the Persian Empire. And this was 185 years from the taking of Jerusalem. It was then that King Artaxerxes gave the order (390) for it to be built. And** Nehemiah was sent** to take charge of the work, and the street and wall were built, as it had been prophesied. And from that date to the coming of Christ is seventy weeks. For if we begin to count from any other point but this, not only the dates will not agree, but many absurdities arise. If, for instance, we begin counting the seventy weeks from Cyrus and the first Mission, the period will be too long by more than a century, if from (b) the day the angel prophesied to Daniel still longer, and longer still if we start from the beginning of the Captivity. For we find the length of the Persian Empire to be 230 years, and of the Macedonian 300, and from then to the sixteenth year of Tiberius Caesar 60 years. And from Artaxerxes to the time of Christ seventy weeks are (c) completed according to Jewish reckoning. For from Nehemiah, who was sent by Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem, in the one hundred and fifteenth year of the Persian Empire, and in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes, and in the fourth year of the eighty-third Olympiad up to that date, which was the second year of the two hundred and second Olympiad, and the sixteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, there are 475 years, or 490 according to Hebrew reckoning. For they reckon years by the course of the moon, I ought to (d) tell you, counting 354 days, while the course of the sun is 365 ¼ days, twelve lunar revolutions, being exceeded by one solar by 11¼ days. Therefore the Greeks and the Jews add three intercalary months to every eighth year. For eight times 11¼ days makes three months.** So then 465 years, in eight-year cycles, makes fifty-nine years and three months. Since adding the three intercalary months every eighth year, we have a few days short of fifteen years. And these added (391) to the 475 years complete the seventy weeks.”** (Fifth Book of his Chronography, Quoted in Demonstratio Evangelica (Proof of the Gospel) ; BOOK VIII)

Even if people use some different dating that posits Christ death a few years earlier or later, the focus has always been that it was a fulfilled prophesy in Christ day!

Peace and Love in Christ

 

[Daniel_Gracely]

I suppose if only for the sake of historical interest, it might be worth noting onemangang’s quote of [Sextus] Julius Africanus. But that JA’s opinion should be accepted merely because he is said to be the “father” of Christian chronology, is false. For even if it be true that he wrote more extensively than other contemporaries about Christian chronology, this hardly proves he is necessarily right about any particular thing that he wrote. His work is not so superior to warrant a free pass from the same historical scrutiny applied to others. In short, we don’t want to embrace the logical fallacy of credentialism.

We also do not want a spirit of “almost counts” to encourage too much our embrace of prophecy. For many say (in effect) “So what, whether the fulfillment it is here or there—a month or 7 years this way or that?” In fact, it matters a great deal to the skeptic and even to the skeptical believer, who find it more difficult to believe apart from more exacting proofs. But why shrink from providing this? Is not God able to give such proofs?

So then, concerning the specific statements of Julius Africanus, the following should be noted.

First, archaeological records have since proven that Julius Africanus’ interpretation of the 70 weeks is false. The evidence lies in the aforementioned double-dated Egyptian papyrus dated Jan. 2, 464, but also in conjunction with 5th century BC records at Elephantine, in which 14 dates are given for the 1st of Nisan in both the Jewish and Egyptian calendars from which only specific years may be deduced, showing that Artaxerxes’ 20th year could not have been in 390 BC, as Julius Africanus claims. Rather, it proves that Artaxerxes ascended the throne between the 1st of Tishri 465 and Jan. 2, 464. This means the 1st year of Artaxerxes’ reign began on the 1st of Tishri, 464, meaning his 20th year ran from 445/444 BC. Thus JA’s claim of 390 BC for Artaxerxes’ 20th year means a difference of 30-50 years compared to today’s commonly accepted beginning ‘bookend’ dates of Daniel’s prophecy. Such a span of time hardly invites a settled feeling about Africanus’ timeline. Indeed, such a span could only satisfy those who are prepared to accept a prophecy so generalized as to be meaningless.

Second, JA claims that the 20th year of Artaxerxes was 185 years after the capture of Jerusalem. But from early Babylonian records and II Kings, we know that Jerusalem was captured on March 16, 597. The interval between this year and 444 BC is 153 years (or about 158, according to JA’s supposition of Jewish ‘lunar’ years). Therefore Africanus is incorrect by over 25 years. Today, we also know that the Persian kingdom began on October 29, 539 BC, when a military commander under Cyrus entered Jerusalem. This means that Artaxerxes’ 20th year fell about 90 years into the Persian kingdom, not 115, as Africanus claims.

JA also claims that the Jewish calendar was corrected only every eighth year, and then by an intercalation of three months. But such a practice could not have been possible, since such a drift in the calendar over eight years would have made it impossible in certain years for Jews to observe The Offering of First Fruits (barley) in its proper season (on the 16th of Nisan). Today the correct view is understood—that the Jews must have averaged one month intercalations about 7 times in 19 years.

I could go on, but I trust the point is made. The real point is that if onemangang actually believes JA’s chronology is anything more than a passing historical curiosity, such that we can feel good that

Even if people use some different dating that posits Christ death a few years earlier or later, the focus has always been that it was a fulfilled prophesy in Christ day!

he has, I think, unwittingly added to the cacophony of voices and unproved opinions which has long fueled skeptics into saying that, since Christians themselves cannot agree at all about the timing of Daniel’s prophecy, obviously the prophecy is so plastic as to be meaningless. This explains their frequent charge of numerology. And so we ought to do everything we can to p(name removed by moderator)oint the historical accuracy of Daniel 9:25-26a beyond a reasonable doubt. For while even that won’t likely impress any atheists, it is our duty nonetheless.

 

[onemangang]

he has, I think, unwittingly added to the cacophony of voices and unproved opinions which has long fueled skeptics into saying that, since Christians themselves cannot agree at all about the timing of Daniel’s prophecy, obviously the prophecy is so plastic as to be meaningless.

Lets take the same paradigm and apply it to ecclesiology! I think, unwittingly added to the cacophony of voices and unproved opinions which has long fueled skeptics into saying that, since Christians themselves cannot agree at all about….What Christ did. Did He build a Church? Is He is truly present in the Eucharist? Salvation? And a host of other things like birth control and abortion!

This explains their frequent charge of numerology. And so we ought to do everything we can to p(name removed by moderator)oint the historical accuracy of Daniel 9:25-26a beyond a reasonable doubt. For while even that won’t likely impress any atheists, it is our duty nonetheless.

If your position is correct and we PROVE without a shadow of the doubt a timeline, what would it matter? OK so all these events lead us to the cross or an undetermined future event that can’t be known. Either way we are left with the expectation of Christ return. The bible doesn’t give you a date for that. It would just be, yet another prophesy fulfilled, piled onto the ones we have already, like Wisdom 2:12-20, that point to the Messiah. Non-believers would scoff at yet another one. The Spirit of God moves men towards faith, not timelines. You can show a,b,c,d, right down the line and people with a presupposition that denies the supernatural will reject it as coincidence.

I am not familiar with the dispensational view other than they get the “missing 7 years” from interpreting Daniel 9 and somehow those 7 years have turned into almost 2000. Wow, I’d hate to have a judge give me a sentence that says you’ll be out in 10 years and after the ten years was up, and I’m looking to get out, he said “There was a gap after year number 3 and year number 4 will start sometime in the future” Then I die in prison 60 years later.

I don’t hold to JA’s timeline, the point being is that he viewed it as fulfilled. 490 years came and went, whether it be at the cross, or 3 1/2 years after Christ passion. I don’t know, I have heard the case for the 490 years starting at Ezra 7 or Nehemiah 2. To me, it makes very little difference being that it’s been more than 490 years since either date. I don’t hold to some halt of the timeline. The timeline was important to the jewish people and I don’t think God is out to confuse people, because He is not the author of confusion but of peace, which I have, knowing that the Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

I was in an Evangelical community (Calvary Chapel) that tried to teach dispensationalism. They were so confused, and without a study bible, they were twisted into pretzels. The Rapture, Predestination, Election and free will, same stuff over and over.

Personally I feel that not only is the 70 weeks of Daniel a past event, but much of Revelation too! So Yeah, I fall into the Partial Preterism camp, but more importantly the Catholic camp!

 

[Daniel_Gracely]

Hi Onemangang,

It is a false dichotomy to say the Spirit moves men towards faith, not timelines. For [proper] timelines are faithful representations of historical events supporting a viewpoint, so that one may have faith. And so it does matter, at least to the skeptic who is honestly searching. As for those who have faith in the prophecy and feel historical proof makes no matter, they are left to explain what exactly is the object of their faith? That Daniel’s prophesy is somehow fulfilled? But how does such a position compel belief in others? However, I agree with you that for the one who presupposes there is no such thing as fulfilled prophecy, all reasonable arguments will be lost on him.

In passing, I’m sorry to hear what sounds like your Calvinistic or semi-Calvinistic, Calvary Church experience. A few years ago I was told by a concerned Calvary Church pastor that the ‘intellectuals’ in the CC movement were mostly lining up behind Calvinism. Hence your subjection to Predestination, Election, etc. Probably no one disagrees with Calvinism more than I. In fact, my website [xCalvinist.com] is a free online read of a lengthy book I wrote against Calvinism. It demonstrates that Calvinistic doctrines are all based on arguments of special pleading, since Calvinists forsake the historical-grammatical hermeneutic. In other words, Calvinists simply define words differently when, e.g., God is the grammatical subject and one of their doctrines is at stake. Consequently, one hears statements from Calvinists like: “The word foreknowledge, when used in the New Testament, when God is the subject, means…” Such arguments are false, because words do not change meaning depending on the grammatical subject.

But back to Daniel’s prophecy. I realize how absurd it appears to you that a hiatus could occur between the 69th and 70th weeks. But the scriptural reasons for this are not a few. So I will discuss this in a separate comment.

 

[Daniel_Gracely]

The following portion is from a book I finished up late last year on Daniel’s prophecy of the coming Messiah:

(part 1 of 2)
As Thomas Ice in his article The Seventy Weeks of Daniel points out, there is a recurrent theme in the number 490 years. For note that each year of the 70-year exile was imposed because the Jews had not allowed the land to rest for one year in seven, implying there were a total of 490 years in which they had violated this law (not contiguously). Therefore when Gabriel gives Daniel the vision, he implicitly makes him understand that the Messiah should not be expected to appear at the end of the current 70 year exile, but that, in fact, another 490 years, i.e., 70 weeks, were determined upon his people (the Jews). Therefore Messiah’s earthly rule was not imminent, as perhaps Daniel supposed, after the 70 years of exile he was witnessing. Incidentally, this implicit theme of two sets of 490 years refutes the kind of Islamic and other criticisms of Daniel’s prophecy that interpret any or all of the “weeks” according to some unit of measurement other than years.

The problem, however, with [atheist] Sandoval’s insistence that the 70th week should have ended in 40 AD because it must be contiguous with the rest of the 69 weeks during this 490 period, is that continuity was not the case in the first period of 490 years. This is seen in Gabriel’s allusion in Daniel 9, in which, because Israel was in Exile 70 years—one year for each violation of seven years in which they failed to ‘Sabbath’ the land—490 years of disobedience are implied. Yet this first set of 490 years was broken up into many segments over about an 800 year period.

Furthermore, statements in the gospels show that even Christ did not expect the 70th week to immediately follow the 69th. For example, when immediately prior to his ascension Christ tells his disciples to wait in Jerusalem a short time until they receive the Spirit, the apostles reply by asking, “Will you at this time restore again the kingdom of Israel?” To this Christ replies it is not theirs to know the times and seasons, known [only] by the Father (Acts 1). Thus Christ implies that an indeterminate period of time will transpire before the appearance of the kingdom. But this is hardly a statement Christ would have made if he assumed, and thought his disciples should assume, he would return after seven years. Such a Scripture forces us to ask why Sandoval, despite his fairly accurate synopsis of the Dispensational view before dismissing it as absurdly self-refuting, writes as though it were a man-made contrivance absent any Scriptural support. For, indeed, the very prophecy of Daniel 9 itself explains that the 70 weeks are “determined upon thy [Daniel’s] people and upon thy holy City,” i.e., the Jews and Jerusalem (Dan. 9:24). Therefore the 70 weeks are a thing “determined,” i.e. literally in the Hebrew, marked out, by God Himself according to how God thinks best for his people: and God is hardly obligated to follow a contiguous timeline because of the expectations of skeptics too ignorant of biblical history to know that the first set of 490 years was anything but contiguous.
(part 2 follows)

 

[Daniel_Gracely]

(part 2 of 2)
Additional passages in the gospels also show that an interruption was expected between the 69th and 70th week, though one looks in vain for any citation of them by skeptics. For example, in the synagogue Christ quoted Isaiah 61 in reference to himself, saying he had come to heal people emotionally, physically, and spiritually, ending his quote from Isaiah by saying he was there to “preach the acceptable year of the Lord.” Thus Jesus omitted from Isaiah 61 the very next phrase “and [to execute] the day of vengeance of our God.” This shows Jesus did not expect that vengeance from God would shortly or immediately follow his rejection by the Jews, a rejection he predicts in all the gospels. Second, and hardly less important, Jesus himself said even he did not know the time his Father would send him to return to earth. Had, then, Jesus assumed his reign of judgment would begin after a 70th week that would follow his resurrection, i.e., a brief period of seven years in which the Jewish people would, in gradual but steadily inclining course, gain a proper understanding and thus unite themselves behind the gospel until they acted as one man to call for his return so they might enthrone him, —why, then, would Jesus have professed such ignorance about the time of his return? This certainly implies a hiatus between the 69th and 70th weeks. Third, Jesus spoke a parable (Lk. 19:12ff; Mt. 25:14ff) in which he likened himself to a man who went away into a far country to receive a kingdom from which he would return, and that his servants should occupy while he was gone. Finally, Jesus once questioned whether there would be [the true] faith on the earth when he returned. Such a statement would hardly seem appropriate if Christ expected after his resurrection to return seven years later in 40 AD, when his miracles would still be fresh in the minds of his apostles, and in the minds of that first generation of hearers/believers whom the apostles would be energetically evangelizing.

And so, despite the Critical assumption that Dispensationalists have had to create an artificial hiatus between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel, the idea of a stop-gap has considerable scriptural support, and can hardly be thought a mere contrivance of invented theology.

Now, as for why there is a divinely instituted hiatus between the 69th and 70th weeks, at least one reason, according to Paul in Romans 11, is so that many Gentiles might be saved from their sins, with the result that this might lead to jealousy among the Jews for having rejected a Savior who had first come to them, his own race. Recalling a point earlier in this book, this is all part of God trying to give people (in this case, the Jews) sufficient, not startling, evidence of what is the truth, and to show them what is their responsibility to it. God preferred this method rather than to force upon the Jews a kingdom of spiritual principles they had decidedly rejected. For the Jews had shown they wished Christ to accommodate their desire to live by bread alone, without regard to the spiritual life. To this Christ pointed out they were ignoring the spiritual (and therefore) greater component of life—the need to accept the provision of the Manna from Heaven—the body of Christ bloodied and bruised for them.

 

[John7]

Incidentally, the derision among some commentators here, over the idea of a hiatus between the 69th and 70th weeks is unfounded.

you sound like a dispensational premillennialist . am i right?

 

[Daniel_Gracely]

I think I identified myself as a “Dispensational-leaning Evangelical” in my opening comment. I was raised in the pre-mil/pre-trib camp, but I have some lingering questions about it as well as about mid-trib theology. However, I do feel pretty strongly that specific dates in history can be reasonably defended pertaining to Daniel’s prophecy about the 69 weeks, and that a 70th week is yet to come. I’m curious why you ask?

 

[John7]

I think I identified myself as a “Dispensational-leaning Evangelical” in my opening comment.

oops, sometimes i don’t read the whole thread.

I was raised in the pre-mil/pre-trib camp, but I have some lingering questions about it as well as about mid-trib theology. However, I do feel pretty strongly that specific dates in history can be reasonably defended pertaining to Daniel’s prophecy about the 69 weeks, and that a 70th week is yet to come. I’m curious why you ask?

welp, because most who propound gap theory of Dan 9 are usually premill dispensationalists who also believe the reign of Christ for a literal 1000 years is in the future, and that time going on now is the church age which is part of a ‘gap’. Catholics on the other hand believe Christ is reigning now. The thousand years in Rev 20 is figurative (no spiritualizing or allegorizing like premill dispensationalists like to accuse amills of doing) in fact its the most figurative chapter in an apocalyptic-genred book.

so, in other words:
premill dispensational > Dan 9 gap theory > church age now is part of gap > Christ’s physical rule from physical Jerusalem in future millennium

amill > Dan 9 no gap > Christ reigning now in the millennium which is figurative language of time from cross to second coming.

that’s all…

 

[beehumble]

An amill can still have the Daniel gap theory. The 70th week of Daniel - seven final years of which the last 1260 days are a great tribulation, can still occur before Jesus’ return at the end of time. We do expect the Church - the Mystical Body of Christ - to suffer and ‘die’ just as the Body of our Christ suffered and died. This would fit with seven years of tribulation, with the last half, the last 3 1/2 years being a time of great, horrendous tribulation and persecution of the Church, followed by the return of Jesus in glory to usher in the Kingdom.

amill > Christ reigning now in the millennium which is figurative language of time from cross to second coming, including a Dan 9 **gap ** seven final years of tribulation before His second coming.

God bless you.

 

[Daniel_Gracely]

Thanks for answering and explaining the Catholic position. From my previous posts it won’t surprise you that I don’t see a 70th week having occurred yet, and that therefore the kingdom has not yet arrived. Indeed, in looking at the world, it seems strange to me that anyone would suppose Christ is reigning over it. Nevertheless, thanks for the information.

 

[patrick457]

Thanks for answering and explaining the Catholic position. From my previous posts it won’t surprise you that I don’t see a 70th week having occurred yet, and that therefore the kingdom has not yet arrived. Indeed, in looking at the world, it seems strange to me that anyone would suppose Christ is reigning over it. Nevertheless, thanks for the information.

Oh, there is no “the Catholic position” as in “the official dogmatically-defined position that is binding on every Catholic,” at least in this area (to the best of my knowledge, at least). If you’ve seen the rest of the thread, you’ll see quite a variety of ideas.

“Indeed, in looking at the world, it seems strange to me that anyone would suppose Christ is reigning over it.” Well, in looking at the world, it seems strange to me that anyone would suppose Christ has actually died for us already. (Okay, that’s not a good parallel)

 

[David2010]

I just posted a book review in the “Book Club” section of these forums:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=644910

The book is about The Books of Enoch and the author spent some time examining the Prophecies of Daniel to see how the Enochian calendar might be applicable to those prophecies, so I thought it might be relevant to the topic at hand.

Daniel’s seventy weeks of years (i.e. – seventy times seven years, or 490 years) is ambiguous because he doesn’t specify the type of year. Is it a 365-day years or a 360-day year?

According to the author of this book (Joseph B. Lumpkin), in the Enochian calendar, a year was made up of exactly 52 weeks, or 364 days. And every calendar day always occurred on the same day of the week. And the first day of the year was at Spring Equinox (just like it still is in the Middle East to this day).

In the year 458 BC, the first day of the year was on Sunday, March 21.
On the 14th day of the year, Saturday, April 3, Ezra and the Jews departed Babylon for the Holy City of Jerasalem.
The Day of the Crucifixion was Friday, April 1 (AD 33).
That is exactly 490 years from Ezra’s departure from Babylon–according to the calendar of Enoch. Passover always falls on a Saturday on the Enoch calendar. In other words, Saturday, April 2 would have been the beginning of the 491st year.

So, prophecy fulfilled.

 

[ryanoneil]

An amill can still have the Daniel gap theory. The 70th week of Daniel - seven final years of which the last 1260 days are a great tribulation, can still occur before Jesus’ return at the end of time. We do expect the Church - the Mystical Body of Christ - to suffer and ‘die’ just as the Body of our Christ suffered and died. This would fit with seven years of tribulation, with the last half, the last 3 1/2 years being a time of great, horrendous tribulation and persecution of the Church, followed by the return of Jesus in glory to usher in the Kingdom.

amill > Christ reigning now in the millennium which is figurative language of time from cross to second coming, including a Dan 9 **gap ** seven final years of tribulation before His second coming.

God bless you.

Alternatively, this can describe the end of Daniel’s 70th week (When Jerusalem was sacked in 70 AD).

Then I saw the heavens opened, and there was a white horse; its rider was called “Faithful and True.” He judges and wages war in righteousness. . . (Rev 19:11)

And this could describe our final trial after the millennium.

When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. They invaded the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. (Rev 20:7-9)*

Peace!

 

[ryanoneil]

(part 2 of 2)
Additional passages in the gospels also show that an interruption was expected between the 69th and 70th week, though one looks in vain for any citation of them by skeptics. For example, in the synagogue Christ quoted Isaiah 61 in reference to himself, saying he had come to heal people emotionally, physically, and spiritually, ending his quote from Isaiah by saying he was there to “preach the acceptable year of the Lord.” Thus Jesus omitted from Isaiah 61 the very next phrase “and [to execute] the day of vengeance of our God.” This shows Jesus did not expect that vengeance from God would shortly or immediately follow his rejection by the Jews, a rejection he predicts in all the gospels. Second, and hardly less important, Jesus himself said even he did not know the time his Father would send him to return to earth. Had, then, Jesus assumed his reign of judgment would begin after a 70th week that would follow his resurrection, i.e., a brief period of seven years in which the Jewish people would, in gradual but steadily inclining course, gain a proper understanding and thus unite themselves behind the gospel until they acted as one man to call for his return so they might enthrone him, —why, then, would Jesus have professed such ignorance about the time of his return? This certainly implies a hiatus between the 69th and 70th weeks. Third, Jesus spoke a parable (Lk. 19:12ff; Mt. 25:14ff) in which he likened himself to a man who went away into a far country to receive a kingdom from which he would return, and that his servants should occupy while he was gone. Finally, Jesus once questioned whether there would be [the true] faith on the earth when he returned. Such a statement would hardly seem appropriate if Christ expected after his resurrection to return seven years later in 40 AD, when his miracles would still be fresh in the minds of his apostles, and in the minds of that first generation of hearers/believers whom the apostles would be energetically evangelizing.

And so, despite the Critical assumption that Dispensationalists have had to create an artificial hiatus between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel, the idea of a stop-gap has considerable scriptural support, and can hardly be thought a mere contrivance of invented theology.

Now, as for why there is a divinely instituted hiatus between the 69th and 70th weeks, at least one reason, according to Paul in Romans 11, is so that many Gentiles might be saved from their sins, with the result that this might lead to jealousy among the Jews for having rejected a Savior who had first come to them, his own race. Recalling a point earlier in this book, this is all part of God trying to give people (in this case, the Jews) sufficient, not startling, evidence of what is the truth, and to show them what is their responsibility to it. God preferred this method rather than to force upon the Jews a kingdom of spiritual principles they had decidedly rejected. For the Jews had shown they wished Christ to accommodate their desire to live by bread alone, without regard to the spiritual life. To this Christ pointed out they were ignoring the spiritual (and therefore) greater component of life—the need to accept the provision of the Manna from Heaven—the body of Christ bloodied and bruised for them.

I believe it is a stretch to say Jesus did not expect that vengeance from God would shortly or immediately follow his rejection by the Jews. Jesus said that generation would not pass away till all those things took place (Mt 24:34). The journey of Jesus in (Mt 25:14) most closely represents the delay between his Ascension and God’s judment of the wicked generation in Jerusalem. That generation was given time to repent because the kingdom was at hand, but that was the only delay. Then the sheep and goats were seperated. Granted, I believe the fulfillment of these events point to Christ’s coming in glory at the end of time, but they first point to the end of the Old Covenant age and beginning of the New. Daniel’s 70th week was fulfilled at the end of one age and the beginning of another, but it points to the end of time and the beginning of eternity.

Peace!

 

[beehumble]

Yes and yes. As Catholics especially, we need to remember the “both/and” saying.

People disagree over the meaning of Daniel, the Olivet Discourse of Matt 24, the Two Witnesses, preterism, amillenialism etc etc.

One says Daniel applies to the 490 years up to Christ’s time, others say it points to a final week of seven years that come just before He returns. The answer is yes and yes. The Bible is packed, layered, and steeped in typology. Ezekiel for example describes the end of the first temple in a way that sounds a lot like the end of the second temple. And the phrase ‘time, times, and half time’, or 42 months, or 1260 days apply to various times in history, too. In fact, one could be wrapped in another - we could have a final period of years - decades - of tribulation that could correspond to a ‘time, times, and a half time’, AND we could have a final 3 1/2 years within those decades that bring the greatest of tribulation - both views of those final “3 1/2” would be correct (sort of like that Russian easter egg design).

Cardinal John Newman spoke of the repeating patterns of Salvation history. The more one studies the Bible, the more one sees similarities between many major events in the Bible.

So people who argue it is only one/or the other, Daniel applies to the 490 years, OR it’s last week applies to the end, are both incorrect. It all applies to both.

And so the seventieth week of Daniel points to a final week of seven years before the return of the Lord.

God bless you.

 

[Daniel_Gracely]

In the year 458 BC, the first day of the year was on Sunday, March 21.
On the 14th day of the year, Saturday, April 3, Ezra and the Jews departed Babylon for the Holy City of Jerasalem. (sic) The Day of the Crucifixion was Friday, April 1 (AD 33).
That is exactly 490 years from Ezra’s departure from Babylon–according to the calendar of Enoch. Passover always falls on a Saturday on the Enoch calendar. In other words, Saturday, April 2 would have been the beginning of the 491st year.

This is what I meant earlier by attempts that ignored archaeological findings to come up with a numerological scheme. I noticed you didn’t quote any historical archaeological records (or even chapter and verse in the Bible) justifying any such decree to build Jerusalem in 458 B.C. There was a decree in 457, but it only involved the Temple. I’m beginning to feel like a broken record, for it seems as if people are not even reading what I wrote, since they continue to ignore the importance of having to reckon with the archaeological records found at Elephantine, etc.

One says Daniel applies to the 490 years up to Christ’s time, others say it points to a final week of seven years that come just before He returns. The answer is yes and yes. The Bible is packed, layered, and steeped in typology.

Typology? Well, how about this? Every letter of the alphabet in some way points or slants upward and downward, representing the Lord (Logos, i.e. the Word) of heaven come to earth. Therefore the symbolism of Christ is everywhere. Even unbelievers cannot help but invoke the symbolism of Christ in the vitriolic posts they write against Him, since they use letters of the alphabet. Well, of course I really AM kidding. But then I hope you will see that typology is still obligated to the facts of history, or else Scripture becomes a Rorschach experience where readers ‘read’ into it any meaning they wish. Theories about Daniel’s fulfilled prophecy are all well and good, but only as long as they accord with the facts of history. And I have yet to see any view proposed by regular contributors here that demonstrates a legitimate understanding of Daniel 9, by feeling at all obligated to basic archaeological considerations.

I believe it is a stretch to say Jesus did not expect that vengeance from God would shortly or immediately follow his rejection by the Jews. Jesus said that generation would not pass away till all those things took place (Mt 24:34).

The phrase, “This generation shall not pass away,” is not in the context of Jesus’ contemporaries rejecting him. Verses in the same chapter (Mt 24) preceding this phrase states that earth would experience many troubles of a natural phenomenon, that the gospel would be preached to every nation, that those who endured to the end would be saved, that a great tribulation would come upon the earth never before or since equaled in its severity, that no flesh would survive it were not those days shortened, that in those days (of the Great Tribulation) the sun will be darkened and the moon not give its light and that even the powers heaven would be shaken, and, finally, that Christ will return. Then Jesus says to learn a parable of the fig tree, that when it puts forth its leaves you know summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things (the events threatening to extinguish all flesh living contemporaneously with the Great Tribulation) you know that IT (Christ’s Coming) is near. And THEN we have the phrase, “This generation shall not pass away until all is fulfilled.” Again, the natural reading takes its key from verse 22, which says that despite the days which threaten to extinguish all human life on earth—the coming Great Tribulation—the generation that witnesses this shall not pass away without the completion (fulfillment) of all that Christ has predicted. In short, the phrase in context is not referencing Jesus’ contemporaries in the first century AD.