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bpbasilphx
Guest
This is one of the many reasons why the modern religion of Judaism can offer no salvation.
Besides, Jesus is not merely a man.
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Besides, Jesus is not merely a man.
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Filioque
Guest
Regarding why or if a Gentile would have to accept the Law of Moses when entering into the Christian Covenant. Few if any Jews would say that any Gentile must enter into Judaism, or even practice any of the Mitzvot. After all the Covenant was not made with them but with Israel.
Jews as a whole, (at least as far as I know having been raised in an observant Sephardic home) seek to or see the need for Gentiles to convert to Judaism, as once again the Covenant was not made with them.
As far as the Shoah, it is because of a group of Catholics that my family got forged papers that stated they were Catholics, that they could not only excape Europe, but also enter into the USA. At the time the US had very limited quotas to Jews, so even if they had been able to flee Europe it is doubtful they would have been allowed to immigrate. Because of a number of Catholics who forged the papers, harbored ny family, and helped them flee, without being urged, or compelled to convert to Chrisitanity, my Grandparents would not have been able to come here with my aunt and father, (and my two uncles would not have had parents to give them life in the USA) my Grandfather would not have been able to continue his work as a Rabbi, and help the others who arrived here with false papers stating they were Catholics, after his arrival.
It sounds more like you have found a radical group who’s views do not reflect the Judiasm that I knew growing up, or that most Jews would recognize.
Jews as a whole, (at least as far as I know having been raised in an observant Sephardic home) seek to or see the need for Gentiles to convert to Judaism, as once again the Covenant was not made with them.
As far as the Shoah, it is because of a group of Catholics that my family got forged papers that stated they were Catholics, that they could not only excape Europe, but also enter into the USA. At the time the US had very limited quotas to Jews, so even if they had been able to flee Europe it is doubtful they would have been allowed to immigrate. Because of a number of Catholics who forged the papers, harbored ny family, and helped them flee, without being urged, or compelled to convert to Chrisitanity, my Grandparents would not have been able to come here with my aunt and father, (and my two uncles would not have had parents to give them life in the USA) my Grandfather would not have been able to continue his work as a Rabbi, and help the others who arrived here with false papers stating they were Catholics, after his arrival.
It sounds more like you have found a radical group who’s views do not reflect the Judiasm that I knew growing up, or that most Jews would recognize.
K
KindredSoul
Guest
My dearest brother, despite a wealth of apologetics that could be offered, that have no doubt been offered by Christians since the New Testament days and have been plenty enough to at least defend the reasonability of the Christian (more specifically Catholic) Faith for 2000 years, I myself offer none of that right now.Hi all!
I really don’t know where to start, so I’m just going to dive in.
I’m 20 years old, born and raised Catholic in a strong Catholic house that
practices.
My whole life I have followed my beliefs without much question, but until
recently.
I have been blessed to encounter Jews in my life recently over the course of attending college. After talking with one friend
in particular (Benjamin), I got curious/serious about what they actually believe
regarding God and Jesus, and I’ve been researching for a couple months now.
I have to say, from what I have seen so far, the cards are not stacked in Jesus’
favor that he was the Messiah by jewish definition (from what I’ve found).
Doubts are also beginning to surface for me on why/how God would become a man,
why a follower of this man (Paul) would say Gentiles don’t have to follow the
Torah, and why the concept of a Trinity could ever exist (“Hear, Israel…The
Lord is One”).
Things I find attractive about Judaism are many:
I’ve always been pulled toward the sense of family that they seem to share, even
among the less religious or even secular jews. I don’t see that among Christians
which is sad. I love the idea that the Torah was revealed to all of them/their
ancestors in front of their faces (as opposed to an upper room, a temple
corridor, a mountain cave [Muhammed/Islam, Joseph Smith/LDS]).
I love the view that sin is a very personal matter between God and the sinner to
be worked out between just these two entities. I love the respect they have for
God’s Word and Presence, all among other things.
Well, I don’t know what type of response I’m even expecting, so just reply as
you want and we can discuss from there. I’m just curious what a former Jew would
say to a Catholic looking seriously at Judaism. Or if there are any Jews or former Jews here I could talk with? thanks
Instead, I only want to say that I have read several of your posts on the forums, even though I do not believe we have interacted, at least not much. And even though it’s been quite a while (probably close to a year or more) since I have read any of your posts, what I have to say about the posts I have read still feels relevant for some reason.
You are one of the people whose devotion to the Catholic Faith has inspired me. Your wisdom on the topics I’ve read has encouraged me. The clarity and determination I saw in the posts of yours that I have seen, well, they gave me hope that one day I might have such clarity and determination, even in the face of sin, doubt and adversity. I will not say you are the only person on the forums to ever inspire me that way, but you are most definitely one that stood out for some reason, so much that just the sight of your screen name carries warm affirmation.
I just want you to know I appreciate you, and I have appreciated the fruits of your Catholic faith, for what it’s worth. And, if you and I must lose the perfect communion we share through the Church, it will truly be a sad day. As strange as that may sound coming from someone who, even as internet forums go, is a stranger to you, I felt you should know.
Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
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scapularkid8
Guest
All I can say is, praise God. He will reveal Himself to all of us appropriately in time. This was an answer to a prayer.
"For Zions sake I will not be silent. For Jerusalem’s sake I will not be quiet, until her vindication shines out like the dawn, and her salvation like a burning torch. " -Isaiah 62:1
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Hi all!
I really don’t know where to start, so I’m just going to dive in.
I’m 20 years old, born and raised Catholic in a strong Catholic house that
practices.
My whole life I have followed my beliefs without much question, but until
recently.
I have been blessed to encounter Jews in my life recently over the course of attending college. After talking with one friend
in particular (Benjamin), I got curious/serious about what they actually believe
regarding God and Jesus, and I’ve been researching for a couple months now.
I have to say, from what I have seen so far, the cards are not stacked in Jesus’
favor that he was the Messiah by jewish definition (from what I’ve found).
Doubts are also beginning to surface for me on why/how God would become a man,
why a follower of this man (Paul) would say Gentiles don’t have to follow the
Torah, and why the concept of a Trinity could ever exist (“Hear, Israel…The
Lord is One”).
Things I find attractive about Judaism are many:
I’ve always been pulled toward the sense of family that they seem to share, even
among the less religious or even secular jews. I don’t see that among Christians
which is sad. I love the idea that the Torah was revealed to all of them/their
ancestors in front of their faces (as opposed to an upper room, a temple
corridor, a mountain cave [Muhammed/Islam, Joseph Smith/LDS]).
I love the view that sin is a very personal matter between God and the sinner to
be worked out between just these two entities. I love the respect they have for
God’s Word and Presence, all among other things.
Well, I don’t know what type of response I’m even expecting, so just reply as
you want and we can discuss from there. I’m just curious what a former Jew would
say to a Catholic looking seriously at Judaism. Or if there are any Jews or former Jews here I could talk with? thanks
Why not consider polytheism ? I think it makes far more sense than the monotheistic religions. Where was this ever-so-wonderful One God when his People were in trouble ? He deserted them - that is the kind of god he is: useless, unreliable, deceitful.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
a) Christianity is based in Judaism. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a problem with Judaism at all but I simply don’t see how the God of Judaism should be accepted over the Gods of Ancient Egypt or Rome, etc… At the time, every society had it’s own deity/deities and it’s own creation story. Egyptians believed this, Romans believed that, and the Palestine nations had their own. What makes the story of creation and the deity of the Jews any more real than the story of creation and deity of the Greeks? Judaism is completely unremarkable. Every ancient society had some sort of deity and some sort of creation story to accompany it. Palestine was no different and thus no more validated.
B) The only reason that Christianity is so widespread is because it had a powerful empire to back it. If Christianity did not have the Romans, nobody would be practicing it right now. If Islam did not have Arabia, nobody would practice it. And to think…if the Romans decided to accept Taoism instead, everyone on these forums would be talking about the Tao Te Ching!
C) Other religions. I see other religion’s claims as just as valid as Christianity’s. I don’t see why I should become a Christian when Islam is claiming salvation as well.
D) The Christian Right is invading American culture and taking trying to take away our liberties. I want us to be a free society. God gave us free will for a reason. By giving people the choices to sin, we are merely enacting God’s diving plan to accept or reject him. When government says that gays cannot marry, they are not letting God’s will of Free Will be done.
E) Why trust the bible over the Koran or Upshanids? All claim to have divine authority.
Overall, I see Christianity as unremarkable. It’s a good religion though. And filled with hope. Christian conservatives make it bad though, trying to institute an atmosphere of hate and oppression.
People should return to the old gods their ancestors worshipped before the Christians came and loused things up.
A
aborodki
Guest
No. This right wing Christian Conservative is going to stay where she is. Not giving this up for the world, too many years without it. I like your lion though.
R
ricko
Guest
Interesting. I never knew that. Maybe I can learn something new today. Would you provide some evidence for the above statement or is it just something you “heard”?
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KindredSoul
Guest
I don’t know exactly what your prayer was, whether it was to be held firm in your Catholic Faith or to be drawn closer toward Judaism, nor do I know whether or not you mean my words may have ironically strengthened your resolve to leave the Church. If the latter is true, may God accept my prayers and contrition on both of our behalves for any damage to your remaining Catholic Faith I have unintentionally done. Not for all the world would I uproot someone from the Church, directly or otherwise, most especially someone whose Catholic fruits were so affirming and good as I have told you yours have been. If I have helped propel you even a tiny microscopic fraction of a metaphorical inch toward leaving the Church, I apologize truly and remorsefully, even if you may think that what I am apologizing for is a good thing.
Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
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kalt
Guest
Scripture isn’t wrong, but the people who don’t accept Jesus for who He is are interpreting it incorrectly.Hi all!
I really don’t know where to start, so I’m just going to dive in.
I’m 20 years old, born and raised Catholic in a strong Catholic house that
practices.
My whole life I have followed my beliefs without much question, but until
recently.
I have been blessed to encounter Jews in my life recently over the course of attending college. After talking with one friend
in particular (Benjamin), I got curious/serious about what they actually believe
regarding God and Jesus, and I’ve been researching for a couple months now.
I have to say, from what I have seen so far, the cards are not stacked in Jesus’
favor that he was the Messiah by jewish definition (from what I’ve found).
Doubts are also beginning to surface for me on why/how God would become a man,
why a follower of this man (Paul) would say Gentiles don’t have to follow the
Torah, and why the concept of a Trinity could ever exist (“Hear, Israel…The
Lord is One”).
Things I find attractive about Judaism are many:
I’ve always been pulled toward the sense of family that they seem to share, even
among the less religious or even secular jews. I don’t see that among Christians
which is sad. I love the idea that the Torah was revealed to all of them/their
ancestors in front of their faces (as opposed to an upper room, a temple
corridor, a mountain cave [Muhammed/Islam, Joseph Smith/LDS]).
I love the view that sin is a very personal matter between God and the sinner to
be worked out between just these two entities. I love the respect they have for
God’s Word and Presence, all among other things.
Well, I don’t know what type of response I’m even expecting, so just reply as
you want and we can discuss from there. I’m just curious what a former Jew would
say to a Catholic looking seriously at Judaism. Or if there are any Jews or former Jews here I could talk with? thanks
You read the OT properly in the light of the NT (Jesus).
C
Contarini
Guest
Obviously such a definition of “Christian” is unassailable. Since according to you “real” Christians are people of exemplary character, Christianity can never be criticized.
It can also never be traced in history, never function as a coherent community, never actually do anything that involves sinful human bodies and minds. It’s a purely ethereal, intangible entity, and ultimately meaningless.
It’s understandable that non-Christians (and many Christians, such as myself) prefer to define Christianity in terms of professed belief and observable practice, since that is something that we can actually talk about meaningfully. It may be less lofty and more embarrassing, but it has the advantage of being real.
That being said, people do often exaggerate the extent to which the perpetrators of the Holocaust were Christians. Hitler’s clearly political pro-Christian statements are taken at face value even though they are contradicted by much of the evidence as to his actual beliefs and practices. Some of the Nazis were practicing Christians, but Hitler was not.
Edwin
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KindredSoul
Guest
Perhaps a similar example is the Sadducees. They believed in the same God as other Jews, but they only believed in the Torah, not the rest of the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament). They believed it conflicted with Torah in the same way that modern Jews would say the New Testament conflicts with the Old. As a result, they didn’t believe in the Resurrection of the Dead (they believed you only live your Earthly life and then spend an eternity in the grave, Sheol), nor did they believe in individual angels, nor in any of the Old Testament prophecies. What they did believe in was as true as the beliefs of Jews who believed in the entire Hebrew Bible, but it wasn’t as complete as the faith of other Jews. If not for the destruction of the Temple, they would still be around today, yet it would still be true, from the modern orthodox Jewish stance, that their faith was incomplete. The same relationship exists between Judaism as a whole and Catholicism, from a Catholic standpoint. Judaism is a beautiful Faith precisely because it has a true basis…we merely believe it is incomplete without the truths revealed by Christ, just as Sadducee Judaism was incomplete without the truths revealed by the Old Testament prophets and the books outside of the Torah.
C
Contarini
Guest
The gods of ancient Egypt or Rome didn’t even claim to be the ultimate causes of everything, so it’s a bad analogy.
This is a rather trivial remark. You apparently can’t be bothered actually to examine the different creation stories on their merits. At least you give us no reason to think that you have done so. You simply remark that by virtue of existing all creation stories are equal. Why?
As far as I’m concerned, anyone who says that “Judaism is completely unremarkable” is simply a bad observer/reader of the evidence. I don’t know what else to say, since you provide no arguments for your claim beyond the obvious and trivial fact that all societies have creation stories.
We would also need to look at the different ANE creation stories. All creation stories are not created
equal–even all polytheistic ones.Again, you take refute in speculative and thus irrefutable claims. We simply don’t know what could have happened. But there were reasons why Constantine chose to favor Christianity in the first place. You have to look at what Christianity accomplished in its first three hundred years–and for that matter what it has accomplished since.B) The only reason that Christianity is so widespread is because it had a powerful empire to back it. If Christianity did not have the Romans, nobody would be practicing it right now. If Islam did not have Arabia, nobody would practice it. And to think…if the Romans decided to accept Taoism instead, everyone on these forums would be talking about the Tao Te Ching!
Islam is an even worse example, because the Arabs were not a powerful empire until Islam came long.
Do you find Islam’s claims convincing? If you don’t, how is this relevant to whether you find Christianity’s claims convincing? If you don’t find Christian claims convincing in their own right, why is the existence of a rival even relevant?
The existence of rival claims is only relevant if you see significant strengths to both. (For instance, I see strengths to both Catholic and Orthodox claims, and this is a significant reason why I have not embraced either alternative even though I find both of them far more convincing than Protestantism.) But you haven’t articulated what these are. In fact you haven’t articulated much of anything.
A remarkably silly form of speech. The “Christian Right” is a part of American culture, whether you like it or not.
That makes no sense. Gay people still have the free will to sin whether we call their unions marriage or not. No one is taking their free will away. Why stop with gays? Why not call any sexual union anyone chooses to engage in “marriage”? I’m not claiming that gay unions are just the same as some of the really horrid examples we could think of. I’m saying that precisely because they aren’t, you are demeaning gays *and *behaving irrationally by defending gay marriage as the “free will to sin.”
The reason to defend gay marriage is that you believe gay marriage is good. If you don’t, there’s no reason why you should want society to go out of its way to recognize it. (We are not talking about the government preventing gays from forming unions, or even giving them some kind of civil recognition–though your argument is still a bad one in that context, since if taken consistently it would prevent the government from banning anything at all.)
Again, you seem to find the existence of a claim impressive in and of itself. Why?
Edwin
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KindredSoul
Guest
However, often when people blame Christians for something, they mean to blame Christianity (the same relationship often exists for people blaming Catholics for historical atrocities while meaning to–incorrectly–blame Catholicism). For instance: “Christians took part in the Holocaust!” is in no way the indictment against Christianity as a religion the way that some people seem to imply when they say such a thing. Because, as Follow Yeshua’s statement can be taken to mean (and as I believe he/she means) anyone who followed Christianity entirely, and thus was acting as a Christian at all times, would not have partaken in such deeds. In other words, a man who kills someone as Nazis killed Jews, even if he is somehow arguably “Christian”, isn’t acting as a Christian at that moment; it is not the slightest flaw with Christianity that leads him to do that, even though it may be his misunderstanding of the same.
The difference lies in whether or not the person is blaming Christians for acting unChristian, and thus admitting that the religion itself could very well be beautiful and true, or whether the person is blaming Christians and saying something like “See what Christianity is good for? Atrocity and murder!” That statement is grossly inaccurate, and I must say that in my experience most of the time that non-Christians call attention to the fact that “Christians” have committed some atrocity or another, it is precisely this inaccurate statement, or something similar to it, that they mean to imply. The same goes for when non-Catholics say something similar about Catholics.
Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
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Follow_Yeshua
Guest
Wasn’t Hitler a Catholic? Honest Question.
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shoewindow3000
Guest
The “clouds of heaven” is allegory, and I will explain it for you:But in Daniel 7:13 he comes on clouds
The clouds are the* saints of heaven*.
They are called clouds, because the “robes” they wear have been “washed white by the blood of the lamb.”
The Saints wearing “white robes” all together, would look like the “clouds of heaven.”
The phrase “He comes on clouds of heaven means this:”
He will return with all of the saints of heaven.
It is a phrase that is both literal and symbolic.
C
Contarini
Guest
Abraham Joshua Heschel was an excellent Jewish theologian. He does not engage in polemic against Christianity, but precisely for that reason I think you would find his work valuable. If you are willing to tackle a difficult medieval text, Jehudah Ha-Levi’s *Ha-Kuzari *is an interesting work of apologetics against both Christianity and Islam. Paul Griffith’s volume *Christianity through Non-Christian Eyes *(which I am using for my World Religions class this semester), includes several Jewish texts, including some quite harsh criticisms of Christianity and some gentler pieces by Heschel and Michael Wyschogrod. David Klinghoffer’s *Why the Jews Rejected Jesus *is not the most profound work out there (Klinghoffer is a journalist, not a theologian or philosopher), but it’s interesting and idiosyncratic. I have heard very good things about Jacob Neusner’s *A Rabbi Talks with Jesus *(Neusner is a renowned Jewish scholar of whom the current Pope thinks very highly). You could also ask a rabbi.
On the Christian side, you should start with official Catholic teachings about the Jews as found in Nostra Aetate, Lumen Gentium, and the Catechism. Jean Danielou’s *The Theology of Jewish Christianity *would give you some helpful historical background, perhaps. N. T. Wright’s multivolume *Christian Origins and the Question of God *is a hugely important treatment of the origins of Christianity from a Christian standpoint that takes Jesus’ Jewishness very seriously. The Pope’s book Jesus of Nazareth apparently quotes Neusner copiously and may be a good place to look for current Catholic engagement with Jewish scholarship. The Lutheran theologians Robert Jenson and Carl Braaten have edited a volume called Jews and Christians: People of God, with essays by both Jews and Christians. Jenson also wrote an essay called “‘Have You Not Heard’? On the Non-Inevitability of Christian Faith Claims” or something like that, but I am not sure where to find it right now (I believe I once read it on the Internet but at this point all I can find is a reference in a blog). You might also find the work of Lauren Winner interesting (she has a Jewish father and officially “converted” to Judaism, only to convert to Christianity later), particularly *Girl Meets God *and Mudhouse Sabbath. She’s not hostile to Judaism, but she does have some cautionary words for prospective converts given her own experience of being treated as a second-class Jew because she didn’t have a Jewish mother and some eloquent personal testimony to having, as she put it, fallen in love with Jesus!).
These are just a few places to start. It is, as you note, a huge subject.
Edwin
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Contarini
Guest
He was baptized Catholic, and sometimes exploited this politically. As far as I know he did not practice Catholicism as an adult. (Catholics are rightly hoist in their own petard here, since they often claim all baptized Catholics for statistical reasons–it’s understandable that folks then want them to be held responsible for the behavior of such persons.)
Edwin
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KindredSoul
Guest
Somehow, I doubt that he was a practicing one. I know I’m not the one you’re asking, but I figured I’d answer anyway. I visited Germany, and visited an old concentration camp, where I learned quite a bit about the Holocaust and Nazi Germany. The Nazis captured Catholic Priests and there was talk among the Nazis of trying to take the Vatican down, whether or not this ever formulated into an official plan. Hitler in some ways treated himself like a living deity, such as encouraging the women of Germany to consider themselves as having his children, etc., and he clearly wanted to eliminate anything that might compete for allegiance to his regime. These traits cause a person to see any authority on par with the Catholic Church (or religion in general) as a potential enemy, one they might tolerate for a while if they can find ways to twist the people’s faith to their own ends, but they will certainly seek to destroy any such authority figure besides themselves in the end. I believe Hitler was no exception.
I respectfully disagree with how “understandable” it is. Catholics claim all baptized Catholics for theological reasons, and even then we do not claim that every Catholic is practicing the Faith. The Church has all throughout history made it clear that even if she claims someone as Catholic doesn’t mean that she approves that person’s actions, or even that she believes that person’s actions will lead them to Heaven insofar as they conflict with the Faith. We are not “rightly hoist”, unless people grossly misunderstanding our stance is somehow “right.”
Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
C
Contarini
Guest
Yes, it is. Because it’s quite easy to show that a historic pattern of Christian theological interpretation and of practical Christian treatment of the Jews paved the way for the Holocaust. Christians who participated in the Holocaust were not simply going against everything they had been taught. They were following certain anti-Jewish elements of their tradition at the expense of others.
I think this is untenable. Of course we will all say that a right interpretation of Christianity would not lead people to do such things. But if we are going to deal with Christianity as a tangible historical reality, then we must face the fact that Christians have often engaged in what most of us would regard as wrong interpretations, and that these interpretations are an integral part of the historical reality of Christianity.
Would you be willing to do the same thing with regard to Islam? Would you say that Osama bin Laden was not acting as a Muslim when he masterminded 9/11, even though there are elements of Islamic scripture and tradition that inspired him to do what he did?
I don’t think that this approach is helpful. Religions should be treated in their messy historical reality, not as abstractions consisting of whatever we consider good and beautiful about that historical reality. And that goes for whether we are talking about our own religion or another.
Of course we can say that the divinely revealed truth of Christianity does not support these wicked interpretations of our religion. But we have to admit that by saying this, we are saying that the historical reality of Christianity has never consisted of pure divine truth without admixture of human sin and error.
Edwin
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